Author Topic: Oil Change Schedule  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline Cheesehead

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Oil Change Schedule
« on: December 27, 2011, 05:57:44 AM »
I have an F-150 with the 5.4 liter engine. I have been changing the oil myself for years and enjoy doing it. The oil and filter gets replace at 3000 miles consistently. I have been using fully synthetic Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. i have been told this is too often and a waste of oil and money and I should push the changes out to 6000+  miles. I am not sure about this. What do you think?

Cheese
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 06:08:46 AM »
I once worked as a chemist for a company that produced various types of oils.  While we didn't produce motor oils, we had a formulator that had previously worked for Castrol for many years.  He once told me that synthetic oils are great and can last many, many miles and much sustained stress/heated conditions but as long as the oil may last, there are no filters that can last much longer than 3,000 to 4,500 miles.  In his words, synthetic oils are a waste of money if you can't keep them clean.

As for your oil change schedule; I'm no professional in this field but I too used to change the oil and filter faithfully at 3,000 miles.  What I came to think of is that the owner's manual for most cars/trucks states to change the oil between 4,500 to 6,000 miles.  I would think that if the manufacturer is going to hold you to these limits in order to hold up a warranty, then these are probably fairly strict limits and can probably be pushed out a little further.  Consequently, in the past four or five years, I have been changing my oil roughly every 4,500 miles.  After 100 or more thousand miles, the inside of the engine (part of head that can be seen via the open oil cap) is still clean and silver looking and not browned.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 06:13:23 AM »
Toyota oil change interval is 5000 miles. I have mine changed about every six months which for me works out to about 2500 miles.


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Offline jedman

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 11:42:13 AM »
  I have always changed oil at 3000 miles also.  One of my close friends is a engineer at Ford at a testing facility in Dearborn MI.   He claims they put engines under  very heavy loads at wide open throttle and run them at 1800 degrees head temp. for several hours and the oil does not break down ?
He also says I am wasteing my money changeing oil so often,  I guess I do it because thats how my Dad did it ?                                 Jedman
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Offline Savage .250

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 12:48:50 AM »
I have an F-150 with the 5.4 liter engine. I have been changing the oil myself for years and enjoy doing it. The oil and filter gets replace at 3000 miles consistently. I have been using fully synthetic Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. i have been told this is too often and a waste of oil and money and I should push the changes out to 6000+  miles. I am not sure about this. What do you think?

Cheese

  It could be a waste of money but peace of mind is worth a lot.   Maybe split the difference.  :)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 01:34:44 AM »
I look at the engines oil as its life blood. 
In some vehicles I still run dino oil and still change oil and filter at 2500.
In others its full syn and it gets changed at 5000mi with filters swapped at 2500mi. Then top off oil lost from filter change.
 
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Offline BBF

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 04:48:44 AM »
Both of our vehicles have computer run oil change programs. When that program tells me it is time, it gets done.
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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2011, 05:39:23 AM »
Both of our vehicles have computer run oil change programs. When that program tells me it is time, it gets done.

And that would be at 3000 miles?

Cheese
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Offline BBF

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2011, 04:12:50 PM »
No, much longer depending on the type of driving you do. Since we have been "metrified" the GMC truck(2008)  gets at least 8000km and the Chevy(2011) hasn't had a change since we got it new, at present we have a bit over 7000 km on it. Most of our driving is Highway or County roads. Very little stop and go city stuff.
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 04:30:57 PM »
Your time and money do with it what pleases you, I suppose.


I have a 5.4 with 202k on it I have changed the oil at around 8k to 11 k since its birth. Pretty much October 1st, and again April 1st give or take. Winter coming it gets 0W-30 summer it gets 5W-30. I have used Mobil 1 since 1988. I started with 7500 mile intervals and now use 10k as a benchmark. But like I said it really has been boiling down to twice a year


The engines are about the least of my worries. They are still tight enough to not burn oil. The 4.0 Ford uses not a dang pint in 10K the 5.4 and the 4.6 both will need about 3 quarts to get to 10K and have since the beginning. The 2.9 Ford was like the 4.0 in that it simply never used any make up oil. Traded off the 4.6 and 2.9 at 120K and 138K, the 4.0 has 192K.


I travel a lot of hwy miles and that could be why I have no problems. At the very least follow your manufacturers recommended intervals.


 You could also send the used oil in for analysis. This will put any concerns you may have to bed. I don't know for sure but I would bet the local parts store could get you info on where to have it done.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2011, 05:05:59 PM »
Being an old fart I have problems using these light weight oils. Until very recently I dumped the original new engine oil which I presume is 5W-30 at 2000 km for  10W-40.
The last vehicle I had for over ten years was a Suzuki Samurai and I ran 20W-50 in it. It never needed topping up between oil changes. That engine was a hard working little powerplant, never let me down, neither did the rest of the vehicle and as a bonus the wife hated it so no borrowing and mistreating it on her part.
 
                             It was mine,  a l l   mi n e   I tell you. :D :D
 
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Offline rdmallory

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 08:40:36 AM »
It depends on the driving habits.

If your trips are 100 miles or more or a few long trips 500-1000 miles at a time longer oil change intervals is no issue. But if you make short trips less than 20 miles or so and don't give the engine enough time to heat up and burn off all the moisture in the engine you will need to change it at least 3k miles. The newer cars computer adjust your oil changes to your driving style. If the temperature does not drop below freezing I would not purchase synthetic oil. But if it drops in the tens and below the synthetic lubricates a lot better until the engine can get warmed up. Most all the engine wear is during start up with boundary lubrication until hydrodynamics take over at full engine speed.

Doug

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 08:55:26 AM »
I have an F-150 with the 5.4 liter engine. I have been changing the oil myself for years and enjoy doing it. The oil and filter gets replace at 3000 miles consistently. I have been using fully synthetic Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. i have been told this is too often and a waste of oil and money and I should push the changes out to 6000+  miles. I am not sure about this. What do you think?

Cheese

Depending on the oil you can change less. We used Amsoil for years and went 6-7000 miles and changed. The Amsoil people said we could go 12000 change the filters add 1 qt and go another 12000 miles. When Valvoline oil came to NAPA and was 100% syn we started using it ( we saved about 300 bucks a 55 gal drum) and we still go 6-7000 miles with no problems. In most cases you can look at the oil and see how dirty it is . Syn oil is a good cleaner . The reason we change so early was filters they free flow when stopped up. The amsoil system uses 2 filters installed remote and we did not wish to convert.
I am driving a 1 ton Ford with a 5.4 engine , just turned 150000 with no engine trouble (knock on wood). We have had good luck with trans oil and rear gear lube also. Whe you go all syn you often pick up mpg. The down side is it takes longer to warm up and operating temp will be lower. In my diesels this ment a cold ride for several miles on cold days.
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Offline Larry L

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2011, 03:11:05 PM »
As a cerrified Tribologist I can tell you a few things you might consider about your OCI. The Walmart synthetic oil is made by 3 vendors, either Warren, Saftey Kleen, or Mobil/Exxon. If you look on te bottom of the bottle and see a WP it's Warren, or it says Safety it's SK, or if it says M/E it's Mobil. The specs are not very great really. Any great oil has a good base oil and an equally good additive package. Walmarts synthetic is a Gp III base oil and if it's SK, it's recycled oil that gone thru an ISO/SYN process. The additive package is ho-hum at best. That's not said to beat the oil you've been using down, it's that you can do better for less money. Motorcraft oils have been subsidized by Ford for years and is the absolute best on Walmarts shelf, including the synthetics. The MC formulation includes borons for increased lubricity as well as moly for when things get hot. It's about a 50% synthetic base which is an acid washed white base which means it's incredibly pure. It's designed to go the distance in that Triton of yours. Next oil down the list would be the Pennzoil Yellow bottle which out performs their own synthetics. I'm assuming you are using the required 5w-20 oil. If not, you need to consider it. The thinner oils are for real and provide more thermal protection than a heavier oil. As you probably learned in high school science class, a thin fluid will absorb heat faster and release it faster. Works the same with motor oils and a modern engine toiday depends on the oil for about 20% of the cooling capacity. You didn't state the year model but if it's a 3V engine, you have the cam phasers and VTC that requires the 5w-20 to work correctly. Otherwise pressures build too quick and the system runs in advanced mode which can lead to a jammed phaser-a 1500 dollar fix per side. You'll find the blends turn in the lowest wear metals in analysis and you get the best of all the base oils using it. No base oil provides more lubricity except the esters and there is only one ester based oil on the market and that's G Oil. The extra lubricity it brings is so little you or your engine will ever know it. It's only available as a 5w-30 and has a so-so additive package- not really worth the premium. No base oil will make your engine last one mile farther so if you think the synthetics provide for longer engine life- you'd be wrong. The guy with the million mile Ford van with the 5.4 just had his engine die at 1,300,000 miles and used the cheapest crap he could buy. If you just like using the Walmart synthetic, keep at it and keep changing it at 3000 miles. It doesn't hold up that well in any form of extended OCI. Otherwise I would suggest using Motorcraft 5w-20 blend and changing every 6000 miles. I change my Triton at 7500 miles and it goes thru the lab everytime with TBN above 2.0 and single digit wear metals. It's now at 111,000 miles on the meter and I expect it will last longer than I'll have it.


FWIW, for you Mobil One users, the regular Mobil One in 5w-30 only has been failing IVA testing which is a cam wear test. It's failing at the rate of 3 times the allowables. Mobil has been silent in regards to questions asked about it. If you have a flat tappet engine, use their Extended EP version. If you have a roller cam engine, it's not an issue.

Offline chefjeff

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2011, 03:32:26 PM »
Wow,you guys just busted my routine.Any full synthetic,10k change. 210K on this daily driver,bought it new.Guess I better trade.

Offline rdmallory

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 04:41:54 PM »
Thanks for the information Larry L

Been a few years since my collage engineering courses but it looks like things have not changed much.

Anyone know what the CD or  SE letters on oil stand for? (Larry can't answer)

A lot of your cheaper store brands have very old ratings.
 
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How about the 5w30?

Supposed to be equal to a 5weight  at -30c and equal to a 30 weight at 100c.
If it is missing the W it have only been rated at 100c.

When I was in school 5w30 was 5 weight oil with long chain polymers added to get it to rate 30 weight at 100c.
And to make it more confusing the graph is more of a bell curve and it varies greatly with brand of oil.

IMHO the best oil to run in an engine is what is listed in the owners manual. The engine has been tested with that brand and weight of oil.


Doug


 

Offline bilmac

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 06:32:32 PM »
Thanks Larry, I'm gonna have to change my routine too.

Offline Larry L

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 06:34:45 PM »
rdmallory, yeah, there's only a few polymers used anymore. They use it mostly just to trim the oil at the finish stage to meet specs. They cover the spread today via Viscosity Index of the base oils. Most of the 5w-30's will be somewhere around 160-167 VI. So there's not much in the way of polymer sludge like we saw back in the 90's when the popular oils has a significant spread like a 10w-40 or a 15w- 50. We no longer have the fuel dilution to deal with like the old carbed engines and since the advent of the PCV systems, we now know that you can easily run an oil years in a vehicle that may only see a few hundred miles a year. No need to change every 6 months as the free radicals have been eliminated with the enclosed crankcase. But most folks have no clue about motor oils. You tell them that a 5w-30 gets only as thin as a 30 viscosity oil at temp and they'll argue that the oil thickens to a 30. Or you get the guy that claims he's been using the same brand oil for the last 15 years and never had a problem and then he gets a deer in the headlights look when you tell him he's never used the same formulation twice in his life as they reformulate several times a year. The responses are mixed with some at least looking at the technology and then there are those that will argue because their cousins friend said so, or you get a bunch of advertising BS as an argument. But engine technologies have come a long way as well as the crude oil bases. PAOs are just about gone as the ethylene gas to make them is so hard to find and PAOs have found their way into other higher paying technologies like the medical field. G Oil is now making a Polyol based oil that if they would just spruce up the additive package would be a dandy for high mileage drivers. Most newer engine technologies are using a low tension ring pack and they are mounting much lower on the piston. This has helped lower emissions and makes the thinner oils work so much better. The Stribeck Curve is much more linear than ever these days in the boundary lube state. We noi longer use the oil viscosity as such to keep the boudary or hydrodynamic lube state in place. Now we employ film strengths which is why you'll be seeing even thinner oils speced in the near future- try a 0w-10 and with no CCS helpers it flows at -30 like water. Cold start issues will be a no brainer soon. Anyway, enough rambling.

Offline rdmallory

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2012, 08:03:41 AM »
Larry. L

You are the first person I have ever ran across since my automotive engineering classes in collage (1976) that had a clue about  fuels and lubes. I have been at a lot of race tracks and most of what I hear there is wrong but you just have to smile and walk away.  You would be surprised at the number of "knowledged"  professionals still think you can ruin an engine by dumping sugar in a gas tank.

One of my first discoveries in collage was trying to heat an oil sample in a microwave to do a SSU test.

Doug

Offline rdmallory

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2012, 08:06:31 AM »
 Larry L

You are the first person I have ever ran across since my automotive engineering classes in collage (1976) that had a clue about  fuels and lubes. I have been at a lot of race tracks and most of what I hear there is wrong but you just have to smile and walk away.  You would be surprised at the number of "knowledged"  professionals still think you can ruin an engine by dumping sugar in a gas tank.

One of my first discoveries in collage was trying to heat an oil sample in a microwave to do a SSU test.  ::)



Doug
 

Offline Larry L

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2012, 08:38:58 AM »
Quote
to do a SSU test
Yet another area where folks want to argue. When you try to explain that the nonmenclature of 5w-30 is the SAE rating of an oil and not the ACTUAL viscosity, they get nutz quick. Then I can go into the entire Saybolt and Kinematic thing and they think I'm making it up. I'm far too stupid to make up something like that. But I at least try to educate  some of the masses. Some will listen and learn and some remain ignorant but at least in their ignorance they aren't doing any damage except to the wallet. And it's theirs to do damage to all they want but it seems like if you save money on maintenance and the life of the unit is not effected, then you have more money to spend on guns and stuff. I like guns and stuff!

Too bad you didn't have a spectrometer with yer microwave oven trick, LOL!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 02:26:18 AM »
Larry L , We use "pure SYN Amsoil or NAPA ( which is Valvoline ) . we do not use a blend as I see little point in doing so. I am not an expert in any way but after 21 years of managing a fleet of up to 47 vehicles I do know what has and has not worked. With out a doubt SYN oils and lubes extend engine , trans and diff life. I don't disagree that a owner of say a 1/2 ton ford PU could not get extreme life out of a vehicle ( I know of some in the 200000 mi plus range and two with over 300000 mile range all used dino oils . We use syn to offset the abuse the trucks get ( one went 80000 miles with out an oil change - we allowed the drivers to do their own changes - one used the oil in his personal vehicle) .
SAE Socity of American Engineers , API American Petroleum Insitute and ILSAC international lubricants standardzation  and approval committee.
 SAE test oil at 210 deg if the SAE number does not contain a W . The W is for colder testing . If a SAE # has a W it flows at the lower temp for cold starts in cold weather.
Something not mentioned alot is the filter , it is important and the quality is very important.
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Offline rdmallory

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 02:35:27 AM »
Quote
Something not mentioned alot is the filter , it is important and the quality is very important.

That is a whole new debate.

Which is better a 25 micron oil filter that bypassed oil when it is cold and get plugged up quickly or a larger micron filter that does a better job at colder temperatures  and last longer? This is one area that you can see for yourself. Cut one open and see how much material is in it.


Doug

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 02:52:50 AM »
I agree about the debate , they also bypass when dirty and extended oil changes often neglect this.
In areas where its cold enough to pose a problem a good crankcase heater is the best bet  ;)
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Offline Larry L

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2012, 03:08:19 PM »
I wouldn't read a lot into the Xw numbers. If you have a cold flow issue at startup you need to be looking at the Cold Crank Simulator test to see which oil provides the flow rate you need. There are 10w oils that have better numbers than a 5w but beware the test temps. The lower the CCS number the better.
Amsoil can be a valuable tool to keep trucks on the road when maintenance time means lost revenue. You didn't say gas or diesel but if you read the fine print at Amsoil, they highly recommend trending the engines via analysis before setting up any kind of mileage OCI requirements. Not all engines respond to synthetics, some just won't accept it and wear metals are extremely high. Others, it doesn't matter, hence the trending.
Oil filters have a test called Beta Ratio that in my opinion is a worthless and meanless test. Glass beads of a known size and quantity are run thru the filter in a fluid. The filtered fluid is then tested for particulates and the difference between what went in and what is left in the fluid is the Beta Ratio but in empirical numbers. The issues I have with it is that the specs do not call for a specific viscosity, specific base (jeez, it doesn't even have to be motor oil), no specific temperature, and no specific flow rate or pressure. I guess as long as the filters sold in the USA are 100% at 40 microns there should be no damage to any engine. But like anything else, you can usualy do better and a lot of the filters are better but here's the caveat, do you want flow or do you want filtration? Sorry, you can't have both despite advertising. You can get high flow oil filters but they sacrifice filtration, kinda like the high flow air filters that aren't needed. Or you can get great filtration but at lower oil flow. In diesel applications we recommend for all users to use a by-pass filtration system with a 30lb check valve. Most filter at 3 microns and do a great job at keeping the particle counts down. Cutting any filter open tells you nothing except the color which also means nothing. You cannot determine the filtering capacity of the media by looking at it. Because one filter has more media than another is meanless if it is a more porous media. So cutting one open is just a fun thing to do but has no information of value to you.
In regards to other lubes like axle transmissions etc, all are now coming from the factory with synthetic based lubes. No need to change to a branded fluid. Mercon, Dextron, ATF+3 are all synthetic based fluids and the only way to hit the auto makers specs is to use a GP III synthetic base at minimum. Assuming medium to heavy trucks, the biggest thing to look for is the fluids Moly Disulfide content for axles and manual transmissions ( but not wet clutches).

Offline Swampman

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2012, 03:20:42 PM »
My manual says 5000 miles and that's what I go on.  I see no sense in wasting oil and generating waste.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline james

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2012, 03:40:10 PM »
I enjoyed reading the comments above.  When I bought a new 2010 Toyota Camery the maintenance and oil changes were included for two years.   When the maintenance light came on at 5K, I took it to the dealer and they rotated the tires and said the oil doesn't need changing until 10K.  I has synthetic in it and that is what is recommended but 10,000 miles sounds like a lot to me.  The dealer of my 09 GMC Sierra pu changed the oil at 7500 mi. the first time but I have since changed it at about 5000 intervals as it is non synthetic. 

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2012, 04:34:39 PM »
I  bring my waste oil to my mechanic and he burns it in his oil furnace, waste to energy.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 12:41:28 AM »
Releasing a lot of heavy metals into the air....
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Oil Change Schedule
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2012, 01:28:29 AM »
Releasing a lot of heavy metals into the air....

Nothing is altogether free.  We burn our used oil as well.  When you are around running engines in a shop environment all day, you realize that pollution is to an extent the byproduct of living.  Keeping it at a minimum is all we can do.  Even horses produced pollution.
 
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