Author Topic: how good are you (Read 3392 times)

hoggunner · « **on:** December 27, 2011, 01:43:35 PM »

O.K. people lets get real here, I am a long gunner from way back and I shoot a pretty tight group with a rifle. now we have all heard the internet marksman that can shoot a 1/2 inch group with any rifle they own, oh I almost forgot they do it all day long. now that I'm getting into the pistol stuff I read about the 3 inch groups at 15 yrds all day long with my 2" pocket pistols. Well the best I have been doing with a M&P 40 compact is to hit the flat of a paper plate 7" is my guess as to the group size and this is at 7yrds. I do have two group of maybe 3'' and those are my best to date. Also I have put 1300 rnds thru it and while the groups are shrinking they are still big compared to the 3" groups I read people shooting on the internet.
My ? is how small of groups should I be expecting out of this gun?

anachronism · « **Reply #1 on:** December 27, 2011, 02:09:09 PM »

I play a game called "chase the bullet hole". At 7 yards, I snap shoot the first shot into the approximate center of the target. My subsequent shots are fired with the intent of putting every shot through the same hole. I shoot it both single & double action. My 649 will only slightly enlarge the original bullet hole at that distance, if I'm doing my job correctly. I've only found one factory load it really likes, and that's Federals 158 gr Hydrashock .357 magnum load. This is with the original "4 finger" factory rubber grips. Compact wood grips open the groups considerably, like to 1-1/2 inches and the full power load causes fatigue really quickly. At 15 yards. I shoot at a 1 inch black target paster. Single action groups are around 2 to 2-1/2 inches with the big grips, and totally disheartening minute of pie plate with the compacts. At 25 yards, I can place every shot on a man sized target, I just can't guarantee exactly where on the target I'll hit. For a two inch J frame, I'm basically satisfied with this performance, but in reading this, I feel the need to get a set of wooden grips that will allow me to get that important fourth finger on the grip. I do much better with my larger revolvers, probably because recoil isn't so tiring with them. My 649 won't hit the broad side of a barn at ten paces with soft loads. It only seems to like the hot stuff. My XD9 Sub does about 1-1/2 at 7 yards, a little worse at 15 yards, and minute of man at 25. For what it's worth, I heavily favor revolvers, and can't get excited about shooting my plastic 9s.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2011, 03:46:00 AM »

to hit the broadside of a barn, I go inside and shut the doors. this gives me a 50/50 chance.

Gene R · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:24:43 AM »

Well, you know how stories go.....Big fish stories, the one that got away stories, ect

Here is my story...and I do actually shoot alot, maybe 3k - 7k rounds a year with the .22 and maybe 1500 - 2k rounds with all others combined a year, thats about 150-200 rounds every week, some weeks less and some weeks more. Some people shoot 1000's and 1000's of rounds a month, some only think/say they shoot that much. Most shoot alot less than they think

With the 3" S&W model 60 I can get 1 1/2 and smaller groups at 7 yards, but I almost never shoot at 7 yards. My shooting is usally at 25-35 yards with the 3" and the groups will range from 4"- 10" depending on the day.
From 25-35 yards with my S&W 629 6"bbl and my 617 4"bbl or my 686 5"bbl I get 2-3" groups depending on the day. And at 50-60 yards I keep them in a pie plate 99% of the time

. But with the 3" at that distance I might hit the pie plate 1 or 2 times out of 10 shots

I read stories all the time about small groups at distance with snubbies

and a bunch of my friends really brag about their shooting ability but never seem to duplicate when we shoot together. Now Im sure that some people can shoot small groups at 25+ yards with their snubbies but not most.

Everyones abilities are diffrent, one thing is for sure. The more you shoot the better you get and look at all the fun. All I try to do is be a little better next time and keep my hunting distances down to the distance I can reliably hit a pie plate.

Gene

teamnelson · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2011, 05:09:41 AM »

I'm a better shot now having shot IHMSA with stock revolvers standing unsupported with open sights. Never won against the unlimited scoped creedmore guys. For me it was learning to shoot slow in a hurry, using my sights correctly and knowing how to adjust sights for range, etc. Also learned about loads, and still getting smart on that. Hearing the ping and watching them drop at 200 yds was cool. My accuracy on paper went way up, tighter groups at all distances. I'm not a ragged hole shooter unsupported, but I feel like I know my firearms better now, and could place a shot near enough to where I want it with a .44 to 200 yds, 357 to 150 and .22 to 100. My buddy Major Golden (Iron Man IHMSA) had us shooting playing cards edgewise one day with .38s. Took him 2 or 3 sighters before he got it dialed in; took me considerably more sighters and I only did it once, but I learned alot in the process. He's never had a drop of caffeine in his life, double distinguished, Navy shooting team, BP shooting team. I'm fairly certain the only reason he had us do that was for my sake, not his.

Nice thing about Smiths though, they all shoot better than we do - the trick is to remove ourselves from the equation.

woods · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:38:17 PM »

I'm usually shooting 20 yards and mostly at empty soda cans and the large coffee cans, just can't get into paper shooting. From my snubby alaskan 44 with light 200gr lead around 900 fps. I can usually hit the coffee can with all 6 so thats about a 9" circle. The soda cans I'm usually 2 out of 6. Once the barrel length goes up it gets alot easier to hit the target.With my 6" k-22 I can hit the soda cans 5 out of 6 normally, it is by far my most acurate revolver I own. I also own a 41 mag model 57, I'll freely admit I can't shoot it very good don't think it fits my hand very well atleast thats what I blame it on. My group size with it is around 6" at 20 yrds.

woods

anachronism · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2011, 10:30:59 AM »

Since "BS" has been called on me, should I mention that I shoot bowling pins a lot, and the standard distance is 7 yards?

Drilling Man · « **Reply #7 on:** December 29, 2011, 04:40:23 PM »

Some days i have rifles that will shoot better than half inch groups at 100 yards, but not all day long, and not every day.

BUT, i can shoot 3" or better groups with the revolvers i shoot most, and at 15 yards, i think i can do it every day... (with a rest)

In my "prime" i shot "many" 1-1/2 to 2" groups at 50 yards, testing loads in some of my revolvers, and my Victor 22LR handgun will do it all day long! I scoped it for a time for testing, and it shoots amazing!

To me, 3" at 7 yards is nothing to brag about, and a good shooter should beable to that pretty consistantly... (assumeing the handgun is that good or better) And 3" at 15 yards should be doable too...

I've never owned a handgun like your's, so i don't know what accuracy you should expect from it. If your groups are still shrinking, it must still be better than you are...

DM

darkgael · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2011, 10:04:15 PM »

I shot this target the other day at an indoor gallery match. Ten shots at 50 ft. (17 yards), one hand unsupported, Slow fire. .45 ACP. Colt Gold Cup NM.
Many shooters can do better than this. It is about average for me.
Using my old model 10 and 148 grain WCs, I can usually keep all ten in the black at 25 yards shooting with the same stance and hold but the shots will be all over the bull.
Pete

retmech · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2012, 03:51:54 PM »

PPC shooters shooting double action at 15 yds to be competitive need to put all rounds in the "X" ring at that distance. The X ring on a B-27 target is IIRC about 1.5"X 2". If you don't X out at 7 and 15 yds and clean the 25 yd line with all 10's and mostly x's, don't waste your time going to 50 yds. There are lots of people out there who can easily stay inside 3" at 15 yds unsupported double action.

hoggunner · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2012, 04:58:27 AM »

some of you missed my point of this thread. I am talking about the smith and wesson M&P compact 40 cal semi auto pistol. I am talking self defense shooting. I would like to know how small my groups should be. Most of the responses to my post are revolver shooters and how they can hit small targets at 50 ,70 yrds I am not interested in that. I have a raging bull in 44 mag with a holo site on it and with that I can hit a paper plat 5 out of 6 at 100 yrds, however i am not going to conceal carry a 4 pound gun with a 8 inch barrel when its 100 degrees and I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
so back to my original question? what kind of groups should I be expecting to shoot with my little ol 40 cal semi auto M&P compact?
Thanks and please stay on track here.

Keith L · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2012, 10:50:54 AM »

For personal defense you don't need tiny groups at 50 yards. You need plate sized groups at 9 yards or less. It needs to be reflex because if you take the time to carefully aim you will be on the ground. Pick a gun and shoot it until it is an extension of your arm. Don't switch carry weapons every day. Use the one that works for you. In a gunfight you will not have the luxury of fine motor skills, so pick one that you can shoot and reload without lots of precise moves. If you like the M&P that will be the one for you. 40 cal is a great round.

gr8ful · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2012, 05:35:42 PM »

My wife has a M&P in 9mm and from a solid rest at 25 yards double action i can get consistent 3" groups if I take my time off hand during the ccw course of fire I shoot about minute of pie plate with it. I try to practice a lot with several different handguns and prefer single actions to double actions and my shooting reflect it. Haven't tried a .40 M&P but would expect the same accuracy as the 9mm. Bud

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:21:27 AM »

I can hit the side of a barn 50% of the time IF I am inside with the doors closed and you count the floor hits.
In my practice sessions which are without support--I use a paper plate--and my goal is to put all on the paper plate in rapid fire at 15 yards. I can do that most of the time. Course the plate aint moving or trying to hide.
Slow fire---maybe 4/5 inches--depending on the gun, caliber, load and my nerves on that particular day.
I often hit the same hole twice--by accident.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:43:04 AM »

Well one class I took ( a 12 week course on teaching SD ) got us in the habit of shooting a 3X5 inch index card at 7 yards and double tap a standard sheet of typing paper at 15 yards. You were timed and anything over a second and a half on the index card was a loss. you had 2 seconds on the paper. you started with gun holstered. Also in the class it was stressed that one should always shoot for something ( add pressure) so there was a pan with 1 dollar bills next to the shooting station. Each person shot 5 times at each distance. You hit the target in time aloted you picked up a dollar , MISS you added a dollar to the pan. We knew this was comming so I praticed every day for two weeks and between each contest. I averaged 3 hits out of five on each target . That was with a Glock 19 . I have since been using a Jframe and some days its 3 out of 5 others its not. The more you pratice the more you connect. This is a more realistic test than taking aim and shooting as in most SD cases you are behind the eight ball and play catch up from the start.
That said I once had a 2.5 mod 66 S&W that I could clear the chicken targets at 50 yards most of the time .

reliquary · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2012, 05:15:33 AM »

I agree that one should carry the same piece all (or at least MOST) of the time. At the very least, get used to shooting what you carry.

I have a good patch of woods on the family homestead and have thrown out milk jugs, drink bottles, cans, etc around the trails & roads, and have tacked 5x8 cards to trees and stumps. I practice by wandering around from different starting points and when I see a "target" within SD range, I draw and fire one round. That builds in muscle memory. My social carry piece is a Commander .45, and my deep woods piece is a .45 BH.

A couple of times in the deep woods, I've dispatched feral pigs. I don't even remember drawing and cocking the BH, it was just there in my hands and lined up on the porker. That's the value of practice.

So far, I've never had to draw in a social setting, but I trust in my mechanical and mental abilities to do so.

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »

Honestly, some days if I was to be attacked the BG would do better standing in one place--the more he would move around the better the chance for me to get a hit in.

Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:04:26 PM »

I think there are two questions to your question.
1) how accurate is the gun
2) what is a reasonable group I should expect.

If you put the pistol in a mechanical pistol rest and shoot it you will see one big ragged hole at 7 yards as round after round will stack on each other with a slight divation more based on your sight picture than anything else.

The second part of your question is what kind of group should you be shooting with that gun.

I think that depends on your experience with a handgun.

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:20:57 PM »

I broke a turkey's neck with a Ruger Redhawk at 60 yards a few years ago. I have hit spray cans at 100 yards with my .45 Colt 4 5/8" barrel Blackhawk.

I can shoot a 2" six shot group at 15 yards most of the time.

williamlayton · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:19:04 AM »

I can soot one hole groups---well, if'n you count one shot.
Blessings

Keith L · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:57:20 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on February 04, 2012, 04:19:04 AM

I can soot one hole groups---well, if'n you count one shot.
Blessings

Me too. Love those one shot groups!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2012, 01:46:35 AM »

If possible one should seek cover not stand and fight in the open if distance is more than a few yards . When you enter a place where you may be attacked you should be looking for escape routes as you enter, also look for ambush points. This is so you have a plan as winging it on the fly often leads to holes in your body . Standing flat footed shooting at targets is not the same as combat shooting in a self defense situation. Try shooting while moving in all directions , from cover , while on the floor , with your weak hand etc. A nice group from a weaver stance just dosen't tell what either you or your gun can do and leave the rest at home. Hey if you get in a fight and can use a weaver stance and do have time to use the sights and score a hit while standing in the open , be ready to explain why you shot cause the other guy couldn't have been much of a threat

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:16:55 AM »

We all like to show and talk about a good group. Some guns shoot better than others OT so many people shoot a handgun well. It takes a certain fermilularity and almost intake t mess with some to shoot well while others seem to be made for the hand.

One thing is for certain you will shoot better the more and longer you shoot!

I have been shooting handguns since pop thought I was old enough. So we are talking 40 years, less than alot of you guys but more than others. I have been shooting NRA bullseye both indoors and out since the late 80's. I have been a pistol instructor for almost as long. A short time after i began teaching, I began to listen to what I was telling my students. Site alignment, breathing, trigger squeeze, focus on front site.... Guess what, my average went to Master classification. Couple years later I made high Master.

IMHO Bullseye shooting is about the best thing anyone can do to improve accuracy and compatencity with a firearm. YES I said firearm not just a pistol. Look in the back of any NRA magazine for local matches to you. SE if there is a 22 bullseye league you can get involved with. The people are great, the atmosphere pretty easy going and it will pave the way to. Stated shooting as well as outdoor bullseye. Many times 22 Bullseye will e a bit more lax with some of the NRA rules making it more friendly or team orientated. Where are center fire three gun bullseye is just you, no teams. Rules are also Avalible thru any NRA magazine.

In no time you will learn to shoot better and with greater consistancy.

Best of luck,
CW

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:28:43 AM »

cwlongshot I think any formal shooting where you are scored and others watch will put pressure on the shooter and inturn helps them develop skill and the ability to work under pressure. I have shot bullseye also and agree it will help develop shooting shills but would add in a fight there are other skills as important as shooting .

Keith L · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2012, 12:40:48 PM »

While I encourage any kind of shooting, and bulleye is great, if you try to shoot like you do in bullseye when in a gunfight odds are you will not be surviving. As others have suggested you will need to sharpen other skills as well.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:27:00 PM »

Guys, you too are missing the point...

Shooting, just like most things is in your head. Bullseye is the best platform to teach this. Learn trigger control and site alighnmant you can apply it to ALL OTHER DISIPLINES.

Shootall,
Yes any shooting requiring the basics like bullseye will be a good thing... This is nothing else I can think of but Bullseye does this...

Keith,
Really...

I don't know how we got into defensive/offensive use of a handgun... The OP was asking about accuracy of his M&P and how good others shot...

CW

Keith L · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:52:39 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on February 06, 2012, 02:27:00 PM

Guys, you too are missing the point...

Shooting, just like most things is in your head. Bullseye is the best platform to teach this. Learn trigger control and site alighnmant you can apply it to ALL OTHER DISIPLINES.

Shootall,
Yes any shooting requiring the basics like bullseye will be a good thing... This is nothing else I can think of but Bullseye does this...

Keith,
Really...

I don't know how we got into defensive/offensive use of a handgun... The OP was asking about accuracy of his M&P and how good others shot...

CW

If you read the whole thread you will see on January 29 the OP said people missed the point of his post. He was asking about self defense shooting. That is why I got into discussing defensive use of a handgun. I can't speak for anyone else.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2012, 05:01:12 PM »

Shooting in different shoots,
I was amazed at how fast some of the guys can shoot.
I was also suprised at my self and how well I started to shoot.
I no longer live there but do get to go back every so often and some of they guys that were bringing up the rear of the shoot are not leading the groups.
10 years ago shooting a Texas star was out of the question. Now, the idea of a moving target that goes faster the more you shoot it does not make me think twice.
For a while at the shoot if I won, and I was winning with a pretty good margin, the next month I would shoot a revolver or compact auto gun like a Sig P230 to push my self. The guys at this shoot are not light weights for th most part.
One of my hang ups has been a dueling tree. Two people walk the command DRAW stops both and they draw and shoot the course of fire, reload and continue shooting untill the flags are all on one side.
One day I was with customers and thought I was out of the shoot, I put away my gun. I got called back up and one of my customers handed me my 45. At the command Draw I drew and shot 4 rounds before the guy next to me got his first round off.
We had two falling plates to hit and then the two flags at about 6 yards.
I cleared the gun, showed safe and holstered, turned around to see Customers and friends all open jawed and starting to laugh.
One got it on his cell phone as a video. I looked like I was on fast forward.
I knew that all I needed to do was get the gun on the poppers and squeeze the trigger, as the round broke I managed the recoil and moved to the next target. The smaller flags I aligned the sights and did the same.
Now I am shooting at a Falling plate match with 22 handguns.
It is a NO aliby shoot. the timer starts and when it ends your hits are your hits. You have a dud, finction test the gun and keep shooting! The shoot goes from 7 yards at 7 seconds and adds a second of time for three stages till we are at 25 yards and 9 seconds to knock over 6 10" plates with 6 rounds.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:22:13 AM »

Bullseye teaches shooting discipline as was mentioned , My point was with regard to dealing with shooting and pressure and seeing how one reacts to it .

cwlongshot · « **Reply #29 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:26:54 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 07, 2012, 03:22:13 AM

Bullseye teaches shooting discipline as was mentioned , My point was with regard to dealing with shooting and pressure and seeing how one reacts to it .

You build a house from its foundation, bullseye provides that foundation for shooting.

Of coarse there is more, bullseye is merely what I have found to do it best.

CW