Author Topic: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??  (Read 2434 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« on: January 02, 2012, 10:42:11 AM »
is my most accurate handi rifles rimless and i have many ? now, don't get me wrong... my rimmed ones are too.
 is it because of my handloads and research of the rimless handi's and finding what they perfer ?  mis-fires i lately heard because of headspace... then it needs to go to someone that knows how to repair it or control it !! even though we know what is causing this, i have not experianced this problem and i wish we could because i know my son and i could find tha correct solution.
 
some of yall down talk the rimless handi's and thats all good for you, but what about the
 many new comers that have saved there $$ for a handi that just happens to be rimless.
and yall slam these rifles. shur many here don't know the difference of rimmed or rimless.
but some do !!!!!! and i speak for the people that do not.
 
my rimless handi's will out perform and have my respect and trust than others i have.
be gentle on these new rifle owners..... you would be amazed at the pm's i get about
rimless handi's. once you bad mouth the rimless, you've lost that owners respect.
 
because i stand up for the rimless... i guess thats why i get these pm's.  and thats just fine with me.
 
i enjoy owning, operating, trusting and kill'n critters with my rimless handi's along with many others on here.
 
i don't need the theroy of rimless or rimmed cartridges and why you think its better.
that seems to be the problem. if you must complain about the rimless cartridge, then
at least post thats "your opinion", which most fail to state that.
 
i'm through now
 
as   zac brown sings..... free as we will ever be ;)
 
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 11:01:19 AM »
IMHO, I think the rimmed is better is a bunch of BS!!  :o There, I said it!!  ;D The only reason why rimmed rounds appear to be "better" is because they're all low pressure chamberings which are better suited to the H&R action, keep the high pressure rounds within reason and they work fine in rimless rounds also, factory ammo and well developed handloads in a properly fitted barrel with a decent chamber will result in an accurate, reliable Handi, especially since H&R dumped the ejectors on all centerfire rifles, extraction issues are non-existant with the high pressure chamberings that plagued ejector barrels.

I know someone is going to point out the the 35 Whelen being a problem because it's rimless and has a small shoulder, but be aware the Whelen misfire problems started happening when H&R changed the transfer bar and subsequently issued a service notice on it.  FWIW, I have two Whelens, a 1996 RMEF and a 2006 Handi, both have been reliable and accurate as all of my rimless chambering have. On the contrary, some of my least accurate  chamberings have been rimmed rounds, 44mag, 45 Colt and 500S&W. As usual, YMMV.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 11:07:27 AM »
thank you greatly tim.... many here respect your input as i do !!!!!!!!! ;) ;D 8)
BTW... we are very happy with our 35whelens............
 
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline bikerbeans

  • Trade Count: (168)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • Gender: Male
  • BANDIT - North American Snake Hound
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 11:14:36 AM »
My FTFs have been on rimmed cartridges, including a 20 ga shotgun on an SB2.  Parts and pieces in the receiver end has fixed all of these except for the deep rimcut on a 45-120.  I had to change my reloading practices to make the 45-120 & me happy campers!  To date my best Handi 3-shot 100 yard group is with my 30-06 shorty.  I love my rimmed Handis, but it is because of the large diameter of the bores not so much the bottom end of the cartridge.
IMHO, the feller down in the southern swamp and the other fellow out in the northwest rainforest are both usually correct in their opinions.
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 11:23:34 AM »
really appreciate it BB when i wasa think'n... who will respond, i knew i could count on you ;D
thank you.  this makes many rimless here at ease with there handi's ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 11:47:23 AM »
OK, GOOD POST JOHN!!

 I know I have been a big proponent of rimmed cases in these single shots. I have been on this since day one. Read some of Ackleys books, I am in good company on this one. I also have been careful not to proclaim a rimmed cartridge more accurate than a rimless one. Better suited, YES. More accurate, not always and if they are, I don't feel it has anything to do with its rim or lack there of.
 
Aside from Tim's opening statement, and saying the extractor 100% stopped stuck cases, (It is a very good thing but NOT a 100% fix) I completely agree with Tim.
 
OK let me back up here.
 I do NOT hate or intend to derail to "dis" rimless calibers. I have quite a few on them too!!
My 25-06 is constantly sticking cases. Because of that its a range gun only. My 30-06 does this almost everytime I shoot it at least once. Again its relegated to range use. I know the "tricks" Even loading them down is not 100% . It does help, but none of my loads are hot, none show any expansion at the web, yet they still stick occasionally. My 223, 308, 243 have NEVER had a stuck case. Aside from my little 17M2, my 223 is likely my most accurate caliber. Its a honest .0527 MOA gun @ 100. My 243 will do 1". The rimmed calibers I have offer good accuracy. Aside from my little 17's I cannot sit here and crow about there accuracy.
 
I will not tell someone that there rimless chambered handi is bad, inferior or not as accurate as a rimmed gun.
I will tell them I prefer the rimmed case in the Handi. I prefer a rimmed chambering because its better suited, generally a rimmed cartridge is lower pressured and designed to be used in a single shot firearm.
 
Here is another statement, rimmed cases do not work well in a box magazine.  :o  Any argument there? I think now, because its the way it is. Then why the argument when I say a rimmed case is better a handi?
 
CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 12:03:48 PM »
no argument... its just if you hava problem..... a competent smith, repairman, or what ever should be able to repair your failures. if not, it needs to go to someone that can.
perfect example, 2 people pm'd me about there 06's they got for christmas... wanting to know if they needed to take them back before they even shot them... now, that seems to be the problem. you should not have to load them 1% less than 100%. if you can't, then there is a problem and it needs to be corrected.
cw, i know you know what you are doing.... but some people don't know you from adam.
i hope you see my angle.
thank you for your post ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline keith44

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2748
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 12:21:37 PM »
I hope I am not one who has said or implied that rimless is an inferior design.  What I try to convey is that I prefer rimmed cartridges.  This desire extends beyond just handi's.  My reasoning is simple.  I greatly prefer the old designs both rifle actions, as well as ammunition.  A large slow moving slug of medium soft lead makes more since to me than a hyper-velocity ultra light weight homogeneous metal projectile.  This leads me to the long bodied (usually rimmed) straight or slightly tapered cartridges like those found in "Jones action" , Purdey action body, as well as some of the Rigby designs.  (as a side note the H&R / Stevens type action we find on the Handi is similar to some early Fox / Rigby low pressure actions allowing an exception for the action opening lever)  So to my mind the rimmed cartridges just go with the Handi.


Call it aesthetics with me.  'Cause the only advantage I can imagine is in the extraction of a loaded case from a dirty chamber, but I am sure 99% of the rimless handis will do fine . 


Accuracy wise I want the rim only when I am doing an AI version of a rimmed bottleneck cartridge.  I will fire form and use what I call dual head spacing.  That is I make the new shoulder an equal critical dimension of the assembled round.   8)


keep em talkin' while I reload
Life member NRA

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 12:34:03 PM »
I agree with Tim. I have never had any more or any other unusual problems with my Handi's that are for rimless cartridges than I have had with Handi's for rimmed cartridges. I have let the rumor continue because it did not seem worth the arguement. It seems my 2 most accurate centerfire Handi's are both rimless, my .223's and my .280's (and my 7x57 as well!!!).There, now I have said it too....<><.... :) 
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 12:35:48 PM »
to the new comer, all this technical jargon is in space to start when explaining the
rimmed/rimless aspects. they don't understand what your talking about. they' re mostly young hunters or new rifle owners with a thirst to learn. and throwing all this he said/she said stuff out there really confuses them. and it even confuses some seasoned handi owners. just please state "its your opinion" from now on... thats what i have told them to look for in the post. because opinions are like your rear end, everyone's got one...
these people look at ones post, trade count, popularity and posts per day amount
to listen too. not knowning if you know what your doing or not.
my experiance has been passed to them by other members that have been in contact with me before and i helped them as best as i could. i only ask for your help.... thank you
 
 
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 12:47:45 PM »
no argument... its just if you hava problem..... a competent smith, repairman, or what ever should be able to repair your failures. if not, it needs to go to someone that can.
perfect example, 2 people pm'd me about there 06's they got for christmas... wanting to know if they needed to take them back before they even shot them... now, that seems to be the problem. you should not have to load them 1% less than 100%. if you can't, then there is a problem and it needs to be corrected.
cw, i know you know what you are doing.... but some people don't know you from adam.
i hope you see my angle.
thank you for your post ;)

I think I do see where your coming from...
 But if these people have so many questions, why don't they post up and ask?!? This is a VERY friendly forum, I cannot ever reading a negative post or a flaming, condemning someone for asking a question! NO ONE would stand for it self included! We may throw around LOOK IN THE FAQ's a bit much to new posters. I try to give info related to the question THEN say as outlined in the FAQ's.

I too get PMs from guys asking different questions and always do my very best to answer or steer them to someone who can answer the questions.

I don't feel I (Or intend to) come off as intimidating.. I know in person I have been so accused. ::) But I really am a nice guy at heart! I feel EVERYONE learns something every day, I will admit if I am proven wrong, but I do not take on a topic unless I know of what I speak. So its not often I need to eat crow...  ::) ;)
 
CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 01:11:27 PM »
cw, as i stated earlier to you.... i know you know what your talking about, and i have informed them of your posts.........its others i have doubt.
alot of these new or seasoned people are scared crapless to even post about there rimless rifles...from reading so much CRAP about the rimmed is the only way to go stuff.
everyday or evening there is someone boasting about rimmed.
that makes a 13 year old young man or women question the ability of there handi.
 
 couple days after christmas i had a young lady contact me from a crossbow forum about her new toy !!! she was excited.... i told her to come here and read about her new rifle...
then, the pie got me right in tha ass !!! someone has been complaining about rimless
cartridges..............then i felt that young lady's heart drop.
but i picked her back up and sent her elsewhere about the caliber.
 
your all good cw...again thank you for your post
 
lord, tha pm's are roll'n !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
 
 
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline keith44

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2748
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »
cw, as i stated earlier to you.... i know you know what your talking about, and i have informed them of your posts.........its others i have doubt.
alot of these new or seasoned people are scared crapless to even post about there rimless rifles...from reading so much CRAP about the rimmed is the only way to go stuff.
everyday or evening there is someone boasting about rimmed.
that makes a 13 year old young man or women question the ability of there handi.
 
 couple days after christmas i had a young lady contact me from a crossbow forum about her new toy !!! she was excited.... i told her to come here and read about her new rifle...
then, the pie got me right in tha ass !!! someone has been complaining about rimless
cartridges..............then i felt that young lady's heart drop.
but i picked her back up and sent her elsewhere about the caliber.
 
your all good cw...again thank you for your post
 
lord, tha pm's are roll'n !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
 
 


when you are done dealing with the spam (pm's) ask her to return.  I will offer an apology to her for the group, we all have off days.
keep em talkin' while I reload
Life member NRA

Offline Spanky

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (96)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4627
  • Gender: Male
  • USMC Semper Fidelis
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 01:31:13 PM »
Most of my Handi's have been chambered for rimmed cartridges but that's just because I am fond of those particular cartridges, not the fact that they have a rim. I've owned a few rimless chambered Handi's too and they've shot just as well as the rimmed ones.
Now if we want to talk about ejector vs. extractor that's a different story... ejectors are worthless and I'll never own another one... whether it's rimmed or rimless. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky
 

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 01:32:31 PM »
when you are done dealing with the spam (pm's) ask her to return.  I will offer an apology to her for the group, we all have off days.

i'm kinda slow... whats that suppose to mean ?  you should see it in color !!
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 01:35:14 PM »
Most of my Handi's have been chambered for rimmed cartridges but that's just because I am fond of those particular cartridges, not the fact that they have a rim. I've owned a few rimless chambered Handi's too and they've shot just as well as the rimmed ones.
Now if we want to talk about ejector vs. extractor that's a different story... ejectors are worthless and I'll never own another one... whether it's rimmed or rimless. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky

i agree with tha ejector fits !!!! ;D  thanks spanky ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline keith44

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2748
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 02:06:53 PM »
when you are done dealing with the spam (pm's) ask her to return.  I will offer an apology to her for the group, we all have off days.

i'm kinda slow... whats that suppose to mean ?  you should see it in color !!


basically if we ran her off we owe her an apology, I have little doubt that I was in on the "rimless bashing" and want you to ask her to come back to this board with apologies offered for not making her feel she would be more welcomed.  Spirited debates about the merits of what each of us like are easily misunderstood by someone new to the game, and if we were too harsh in our (my) wording of opinions and throwing around formula's and sketches...


Ask her back...
keep em talkin' while I reload
Life member NRA

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 03:32:58 PM »
I think you have Rim Envy



Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline JB White

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 113
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 03:33:49 PM »

Here is another statement, rimmed cases do not work well in a box magazine.  :o  Any argument there? I think now, because its the way it is. Then why the argument when I say a rimmed case is better a handi?
 
CW

Ummm...Argument from the new guy here.  ;)  I happen to be a fan of the 303 British. I have three safes filled mostly with British rifles and half of those are Lee Enfields. Rimmed cartridge and box magazines in both early single column and later staggered designs.
 Aside from the occasional weak spring or bent lip upon first getting them, they all feed and extract flawlessly. Even the ones over 100 years old are still going as smooth and as reliable as can be. The rimmed cartridge will function fine in a box magazine arm designed for it.
 
 Hey...you asked!  ;D
 

Offline Ol BW

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 04:29:05 PM »
I will have to agree there has been alot of "rimless bashing" on here lately.  I have not had any issues with any of mine and neiter have any of my friends that have Handi's. 
 
Folks the thing you have to remember is that anything you put on here is here for the world to see.  Any post is searchable from any search engine. (thats how I found it!)  Consider anything you post as staying available FOREVER!
 
Think about what you are posting here.  Daddy always said, make sure anything you say is something you wouldn't mind being printed on the front page of the paper or for your Momma to hear!  ;D

Offline twoshooter

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Gender: Male
  • Remember the Starfish......
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2012, 05:16:49 PM »
I also will apologize if someone thinks I "insulted " their rimless handi, and they should not worry about running out and exchanging a new one before firing it. That said, YES, I prefer rimmed cartridges in the handi, as CW said, it is the perfect platform for them. If I wanted a 308 say. I can buy a 308 semi auto that will hold 20 rounds, be more accurate, have all kind of options and gizmos that will attach. I can even buy a bolt action that will have a cheap scope, hold 4 rounds, have an adjustable trigger, be as accurate as the average handi with factory ammo, for as little or less than a handi. Why would I want a 308 handi? 
Why did I prefer handi's in the first place?
Why do I prefer chunky blondes who love to bake and hates pajamas?
Because it is what makes me happy.
 #1   I find that rimmed cartridges are chamberings that mean something to me. My grandfather had a 32/20 and a 45/70. My first real rifle was a 30/30. There is a nostalgia factor there.
#2   Most rimmed cartridges operate at lower pressure, that extends caselife and for the most part also reduces noise and recoil.
#3   Most rimmed cases are straight walled cartridges, they are better adapted to cast bullet loading, use lighter loads, lower velocity, therefore they are much cheaper to reload. Handis  also raise the performance of "handgun" "levergun" and "obsolete" cartridges to surprising levels.
     My life story is largely a history of doing more with less

SO. How is it that I can pick up a second hand economy rifle, fiddle with it until it shoots well enough, make my own bullets in a dutch oven in the back yard,shoved into range pickup brass,   put meat in the freezer, and be extraordinarily pleased with myself , while I watch young nimrod with the Custom made, Zeiss scoped, Berger shooting, 900 yard capable spiral fluted barrel, shoot an elk that was personally chosen by the guide the previous month when it was cataloged and measured for points, then donate everything except the head to charity, and be recognized by the Safari Club for being in the record books?

Call it reverse snobbery if you will, a perverse enjoyment in taking something less and making it more. Everybody and their dog has a 30 caliber something or other. The number of people whom I know have seen a 357 Herrett you could get in a station wagon. I have a deer on my wall I took with one. I made the brass myself from 30/30, cast the bullet- a 358429HP.  If  you buy a new 700 Remington in 300 Ultra mag, you are not going into the garage with a hacksaw and make a shorty out of it. You just are not. Nor are you going to ream out a new  bolt rifle to a different cartridge with a hand reamer. You will a handi. Rimmed cases are easier to do that with, at least I think so. A really cool 223 is difficult to find. A 219 Zipper that is NOT cool, would be hard to find. No hard feelings, not dissin' anyone. Kinda like the "less filling vs tastes great" argument I guess. ( That would be because I despise beer and on the rare occasions I use "spirits" it is Schnapps.)

 
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline keith44

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2748
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2012, 05:30:02 PM »
+1 on reverse snobbery there twoshooter, though I must disagree with you on the beer and schnapps.  Never saw a schnapps that I could swallow.  :)
keep em talkin' while I reload
Life member NRA

Offline knight0334

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Gender: Male
    • Pennsylvania Firearm Owners
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2012, 06:07:15 PM »
I don't need rimless cartridges because I'm not using a magazine to feed ammo from.   That, and I prefer straight wall cartridges anyways - exceptions for some bottlenecks, but most of them are rimmed.

When buying a gun with a rimmed chamber I can check the headspace without casting a mold or using chamber gauges. 
RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline Jimbo47

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2012, 06:21:48 PM »

Here is another statement, rimmed cases do not work well in a box magazine.  :o  Any argument there? I think now, because its the way it is. Then why the argument when I say a rimmed case is better a handi?
 
CW

Ummm...Argument from the new guy here.  ;)  I happen to be a fan of the 303 British. I have three safes filled mostly with British rifles and half of those are Lee Enfields. Rimmed cartridge and box magazines in both early single column and later staggered designs.
 Aside from the occasional weak spring or bent lip upon first getting them, they all feed and extract flawlessly. Even the ones over 100 years old are still going as smooth and as reliable as can be. The rimmed cartridge will function fine in a box magazine arm designed for it.
 
 Hey...you asked!  ;D

That .303 British was my first real deer rifle back in the early sixties, and I still got it.  Never had a problem with the magazine.
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline Spanky

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (96)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4627
  • Gender: Male
  • USMC Semper Fidelis
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 07:47:57 PM »
I also will apologize if someone thinks I "insulted " their rimless handi, and they should not worry about running out and exchanging a new one before firing it. That said, YES, I prefer rimmed cartridges in the handi, as CW said, it is the perfect platform for them. If I wanted a 308 say. I can buy a 308 semi auto that will hold 20 rounds, be more accurate, have all kind of options and gizmos that will attach. I can even buy a bolt action that will have a cheap scope, hold 4 rounds, have an adjustable trigger, be as accurate as the average handi with factory ammo, for as little or less than a handi. Why would I want a 308 handi? 
Why did I prefer handi's in the first place?
Why do I prefer chunky blondes who love to bake and hates pajamas?
Because it is what makes me happy.
 #1   I find that rimmed cartridges are chamberings that mean something to me. My grandfather had a 32/20 and a 45/70. My first real rifle was a 30/30. There is a nostalgia factor there.
#2   Most rimmed cartridges operate at lower pressure, that extends caselife and for the most part also reduces noise and recoil.
#3   Most rimmed cases are straight walled cartridges, they are better adapted to cast bullet loading, use lighter loads, lower velocity, therefore they are much cheaper to reload. Handis  also raise the performance of "handgun" "levergun" and "obsolete" cartridges to surprising levels.
     My life story is largely a history of doing more with less

SO. How is it that I can pick up a second hand economy rifle, fiddle with it until it shoots well enough, make my own bullets in a dutch oven in the back yard,shoved into range pickup brass,   put meat in the freezer, and be extraordinarily pleased with myself , while I watch young nimrod with the Custom made, Zeiss scoped, Berger shooting, 900 yard capable spiral fluted barrel, shoot an elk that was personally chosen by the guide the previous month when it was cataloged and measured for points, then donate everything except the head to charity, and be recognized by the Safari Club for being in the record books?

Call it reverse snobbery if you will, a perverse enjoyment in taking something less and making it more. Everybody and their dog has a 30 caliber something or other. The number of people whom I know have seen a 357 Herrett you could get in a station wagon. I have a deer on my wall I took with one. I made the brass myself from 30/30, cast the bullet- a 358429HP.  If  you buy a new 700 Remington in 300 Ultra mag, you are not going into the garage with a hacksaw and make a shorty out of it. You just are not. Nor are you going to ream out a new  bolt rifle to a different cartridge with a hand reamer. You will a handi. Rimmed cases are easier to do that with, at least I think so. A really cool 223 is difficult to find. A 219 Zipper that is NOT cool, would be hard to find. No hard feelings, not dissin' anyone. Kinda like the "less filling vs tastes great" argument I guess. ( That would be because I despise beer and on the rare occasions I use "spirits" it is Schnapps.)

 


 
 
That's one of the best posts I've read in a long time.
 
One thing though... could you tell us more about the chunky blonde who hates pajamas? ;D  Sounds like there's a story to be told there. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline ibgp3

  • Trade Count: (29)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
  • Gender: Male
  • Recovering after nearly 40 years of PTSD
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 08:21:44 PM »
I brought a bias against rimless to Handi's.
I used to shoot T/C's in competition, and you don't need but one stuck case in a match to go rimmed.


I found that bias well supported here, and didn't feel the need to check it out.


Now I have to get a bunch more Handi's and check out rimless cartridges.


Great!!

Offline jeepmann1948

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (67)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
  • Gender: Male
  • San Angelo, Texas
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2012, 12:18:13 AM »
Well...........
 I have a project going to make a rimmed series of the 308 based cartridges.The only reason I am doing it is to prove or disprove the rimmed theory to myself.Honestly,I do not expect to see a lot of change either way.Like a lot of others here I have both the rimmed and rimless versions of the Handi offerings and they both work extremely well for their intended purpose
 Back when I was shooting a lot of bench rest stuff, along came a cute little cartridge called 30 American. Basically a 30 -30 Win with some minor changes.Of course it was also necked down to 6mm and a few to 22. With the proper Reamer and dies it head spaced on the rim and shoulder.After a brief flurry of semi-popularity it went away. Most shooters went back to the PPC based cartridges, still looking for the perfect group.
 I too,cussed the ejectors till I found an easy cheap fix, now my ejectors work as well and reliable as my extractor models.
 In my opinion Handi rifles a neat firearms made for hunting and casual shooting. For their intended purpose they are GREAT.
 And I too would like to hear  as Spanky said( but maybe not on this forum) ;D
"One thing though... could you tell us more about the chunky blonde who hates pajamas? ;D  Sounds like there's a story to be told there. ;)
 


 
"it ain't what you shoot em with......................
  it's where you hit em "

Offline Jimbo47

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2012, 01:12:11 AM »
to the new comer, all this technical jargon is in space to start when explaining the
rimmed/rimless aspects. they don't understand what your talking about. they' re mostly young hunters or new rifle owners with a thirst to learn. and throwing all this he said/she said stuff out there really confuses them. and it even confuses some seasoned handi owners. just please state "its your opinion" from now on... thats what i have told them to look for in the post. because opinions are like your rear end, everyone's got one...
these people look at ones post, trade count, popularity and posts per day amount
to listen too. not knowning if you know what your doing or not.
my experiance has been passed to them by other members that have been in contact with me before and i helped them as best as i could. i only ask for your help.... thank you

I'm an old timer and I still look to some of the regulars here with savy due to their knowledge, and yes ability to post and BS with the best of them.
 
That is where experience comes in and being able to distinguish the percentage between the BS and the real meat of the topic, and why some new folks feel the need for a more personal interaction with those who know.     Shoot, I swallow my pride often around here and ask in a PM, and some folks might feel intimidated or even embarrassed to ask on the public forum, and having the PM option is a good thing to have.
 
I don't think anyone intends to run anyone off, and I think the new shooters who are confused are like you said, here to learn.
 
I just don't see that anyone has intentionally stepped on anyones toes after going back and reading several posts and topics, and trying to figure out what all the hoopla is about?
 
I don't think it would solve anything, or help any more people that visit this site to try and be more "politically correct" if you will, and change from the way they post, and and explain things at the present.  Some technical stuff can't be so easily expressed in laymans terms and vise versa.
 
But that is "just my honest opinion" and that and several bucks down at Starbucks might get you coffee and a sweet roll!
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline petemi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (73)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7386
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 03:08:46 AM »
Most of my Handi's have been chambered for rimmed cartridges but that's just because I am fond of those particular cartridges, not the fact that they have a rim. I've owned a few rimless chambered Handi's too and they've shot just as well as the rimmed ones.
Now if we want to talk about ejector vs. extractor that's a different story... ejectors are worthless and I'll never own another one... whether it's rimmed or rimless. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky
 

Spanky hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.  My preference is for the nostalgic old time rimmed cartridges.  In addition, they're easier and cheaper to reload for and easier on the firearm.  Since I too hate ejectors, the rim also makes removing a spent case while wearing gloves much easier.  We had three, still have two, 7mm-08s.  because all three headspaced differently, I had to segregate brass by rifle or full length size.  No such problem with the rimmed cases.  I have had shooters and klunkers in both rimmed and rimless.  I really don't believe the rim alone is an advantage in accuracy.  I own a few of each, and they all shoot or they'd be down the road.

In summary, to me, the rim is merely a matter of preference, not necessity.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,191112.msg1098959491.html#msg1098959491

Offline Jimbo47

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Gender: Male
Re: if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2012, 03:40:55 AM »
I guess if everyone agreed and we didn't have those who thought rimmed was better, or rimless was the way to go, then this place would be pretty boring. ;D
 
How simple is a Handi Rifle?    We all love um or we wouldn't be here!   So it only makes for healthy debate and personal preference to have at least some differences, and that would be in caliber, rimmed or rimless, barrel length, and straight grip or pistol, wood versus synthetic, scopes, the list goes on and on! ;)
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.