if all this rimmed talk is correct, then why ??

[canon6]

I guess I am one of the ones "who talked down the rimless cartridges", if I remember correctly .What I said was " I think my most accurate loads have been with rimless" and I still do.That may be the result of me not being able to load rimless as good as rimmed.It may be that I am simply a old fart that like rimmed.
Or it may be that I perfer low density loads for "my" rifles.I am not at all concerned with what any one  did/does with his/hers. Plus I am one of  the odd balls who like EJECTORS, there I said it.   Doug

[Swampman]

99% of the time, when you see a "I've gotta problem" post it's about a Handi in a rimmless cartridge.  That's why I won't own one.

[twoshooter]

Hey Spanky. In '76 I ran into one of those "girls your mother warned you about". I went to a going away party for her, but she wasnt leaving just that moment, and she was allergic to wool......like my long johns, and that was a very cold year. She told me to ditch the long johns, I would not be cold.... 35 years and counting!! Havent been cold a day since. I am going to take her some coffee and get the grandkids up in a little while.

[Spanky]

Hehehe... thank God for wool long johns.
 
 
 
Spanky
 
 
 
 

[canon6]

+1 for wool. Doug

[dave29]

I also will apologize if someone thinks I "insulted " their rimless handi, and they should not worry about running out and exchanging a new one before firing it. That said, YES, I prefer rimmed cartridges in the handi, as CW said, it is the perfect platform for them. If I wanted a 308 say. I can buy a 308 semi auto that will hold 20 rounds, be more accurate, have all kind of options and gizmos that will attach. I can even buy a bolt action that will have a cheap scope, hold 4 rounds, have an adjustable trigger, be as accurate as the average handi with factory ammo, for as little or less than a handi. Why would I want a 308 handi? 
Why did I prefer handi's in the first place?
Why do I prefer chunky blondes who love to bake and hates pajamas?
Because it is what makes me happy.
 #1   I find that rimmed cartridges are chamberings that mean something to me. My grandfather had a 32/20 and a 45/70. My first real rifle was a 30/30. There is a nostalgia factor there.
#2   Most rimmed cartridges operate at lower pressure, that extends caselife and for the most part also reduces noise and recoil.
#3   Most rimmed cases are straight walled cartridges, they are better adapted to cast bullet loading, use lighter loads, lower velocity, therefore they are much cheaper to reload. Handis  also raise the performance of "handgun" "levergun" and "obsolete" cartridges to surprising levels.
     My life story is largely a history of doing more with less

SO. How is it that I can pick up a second hand economy rifle, fiddle with it until it shoots well enough, make my own bullets in a dutch oven in the back yard,shoved into range pickup brass,   put meat in the freezer, and be extraordinarily pleased with myself , while I watch young nimrod with the Custom made, Zeiss scoped, Berger shooting, 900 yard capable spiral fluted barrel, shoot an elk that was personally chosen by the guide the previous month when it was cataloged and measured for points, then donate everything except the head to charity, and be recognized by the Safari Club for being in the record books?

Call it reverse snobbery if you will, a perverse enjoyment in taking something less and making it more. Everybody and their dog has a 30 caliber something or other. The number of people whom I know have seen a 357 Herrett you could get in a station wagon. I have a deer on my wall I took with one. I made the brass myself from 30/30, cast the bullet- a 358429HP.  If  you buy a new 700 Remington in 300 Ultra mag, you are not going into the garage with a hacksaw and make a shorty out of it. You just are not. Nor are you going to ream out a new  bolt rifle to a different cartridge with a hand reamer. You will a handi. Rimmed cases are easier to do that with, at least I think so. A really cool 223 is difficult to find. A 219 Zipper that is NOT cool, would be hard to find. No hard feelings, not dissin' anyone. Kinda like the "less filling vs tastes great" argument I guess. ( That would be because I despise beer and on the rare occasions I use "spirits" it is Schnapps.)

 

 
 
That's one of the best posts I've read in a long time.
 
One thing though... could you tell us more about the chunky blonde who hates pajamas?   Sounds like there's a story to be told there.
 
 
 
Spanky

I agree, that was an awesome and amusing post. 

[knight0334]

Lets also mention that the case design has little to nothing to do with accuracy.  Once that bullet leaves the mouth the case cannot harm or improve accuracy.   The gun and the person pulling the trigger are the players in what determines the end results.   

No case design is inherently more accurate than another, it is only a means to hold the projectile, the powder charge, and a source of ignition until fired, then it acts like a gasket from that point until pressures have dropped. 

Claiming a .30-06 is more accurate than a .30-30, or a .22-250 is more accurate than a .225Win, or vice-versa for any comparison, is horse pucky to the 9th degree.   So long as the case is suited to the chamber, and was properly annealed to allow it to expand to fit the chamber - the brass design plays no part.

Folks can argue all you want about rimmed versus rimless, however the two respective designs only really matter when given a gun's means of feeding the cartridge, and sometimes extracting the cartridge or spent casing.

[JB White]

Lets also mention that the case design has little to nothing to do with accuracy.  Once that bullet leaves the mouth the case cannot harm or improve accuracy.   The gun and the person pulling the trigger are the players in what determines the end results.   

No case design is inherently more accurate than another, it is only a means to hold the projectile, the powder charge, and a source of ignition until fired, then it acts like a gasket from that point until pressures have dropped. 

Claiming a .30-06 is more accurate than a .30-30, or a .22-250 is more accurate than a .225Win, or vice-versa for any comparison, is horse pucky to the 9th degree.   So long as the case is suited to the chamber, and was properly annealed to allow it to expand to fit the chamber - the brass design plays no part.

Folks can argue all you want about rimmed versus rimless, however the two respective designs only really matter when given a gun's means of feeding the cartridge, and sometimes extracting the cartridge or spent casing.

With all due repect I disagree. The case itself plays a very significant role in regard to balancing the relationship between the powder, the projectile, and the bore. The case determines the type of propellant and the amount of propellant. It factors into rate of ignition as its size/shape can effect the burn rate at which it sends the projectile on its way. The variables....
Long story short, if it were as simple as that, cartridge development would have ended before the turn of the last century. That's my take on it.

[Ol BW]

Twoshooter, I don't think anyone here is "insulted" by anybody's likes/dislikes or opinions.  I think what Gendoc is getting at is that most the time people use language that seems to imply that their preference is the only one worth having.  They use words like "always" and "never" and forget to add in that it is only based on their experience.  They loose sight of the fact that there are others that have had different experiences.  If no one with an alternate point of view happens to see the post, that person's question is answered from biased info.
 
I don't know how many times I have seen on here that the 7.62x39 Handi was only good for re-barreling into a 7.62x54 or .303 British.  That is not what was exactly said, but that was the impression one fellow had, as he had bought one at a good price and was immediately considering rechambering without ever firing the rifle!
 
I have always ran into people that liked Fords and people that liked Chevys.  I finally ran into someone who had problems with both, cause he tried them both!!  Every choice has its drawbacks and you would be lying if you didn't admit to that.  The only thing is that what some view as a drawback, others might be able to live with because of other positive factors. 
 
Drawbacks to one person can be seen as an advantage by others.

[twoshooter]

I would not apologize to the other old dogs here, they already know we are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and I cannot believe they would be that thinned skinned anyway. I would however to some neophyte who just checked in and thought they had stumbled into a curmudgeon gladiatorial engagement. I have a couple rimless handis myself, but if anyone wants to trade me a 25-35 for my 243 barrel, I will do an "I'll take it" now. My main hope and interest in handis is that some regional supplier or chain store etc will get a wild hair up to have a proprietary run of something odd or obsolete. Remington used to put out a "classic" chambering each year, and one year only. That could be a possibility. It is so much easier in a rimmed handi- the headspace is less critical, throat length less critical, you dont have to worry about adapting a bolt face, or overall cartridge length. There might be a run of handi 25/35 in the future, but I would make a Mitt Romney bet that we wont see one in a new Ruger Hawkeye. I would not try to dissuade anyone from their favorite cartridge, but most standard, popular cartridges have a pretty broad choice of platforms to pick from. How many 444's are there? Where else can you currently get a Maxi, besides the do it yourself ream job? Handi's are the last best hope of the cartridges that are long in the tooth' but not dead yet. They are "as good once as they ever were". Somehow......I think I understand that.

Quick, would you want to trade your 405 for one of those Chey-tac 416 thingys??

[quickdtoo]

Quick, would you want to trade your 405 for one of those Chey-tac 416 thingys??

I wouldn't make that trade for any of my Handis unless they were willing to part with a lot of cash too! 

Tim

[gendoc]

I think you have Rim Envy

well, you thought wrong !!!!!!!!!!!! i have more rims than others......
and i hava big tom cat that jus loves jerry

[bikerbeans]

Doc,
How 'bout invitin' the rim crowd down to da swamp with their shootin' irons and have a little competition for "pinks" againist your rimless Handis?
BB

[gendoc]

Doc,
How 'bout invitin' the rim crowd down to da swamp with their shootin' irons and have a little competition for "pinks" againist your rimless Handis?
BB

i wud'nt give them tha pleasure of even see'n this part of god's country
 
all i wud gain is sumthin i already got anaway
 

[Dinny]

I'd let the crybaby rimless vs rimmed PMs blow out on the same breeze they came in on. Tell them to read more posts... H&R/NEF produces a reliable product - period, plain and simple. With that being said, I still prefer rimmed cartridges in my Handi.


This is just my onion.


Thanks, Dinny

[twoshooter]

Thats RIGHT Dinny, , no man is an island, but some men are peninsulas............and you are entitled to your ONION----and that means ONIONS are part of an entitlement program........ and ONIONS have Layers.......and cakes have layers.... YOUR ONION TAKES THE CAKE,,,,,,,,wait  Morgan Freeman fell into a wormhole and wants me to go with him.............AAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[watkibe]

I first started to suspect the "rimmed cases are better for single shots and no good for bolt and some other actions" dogma when I learned about the Siamese Mauser. This was a pure blooded Mauser bolt action rifle, built by Mauser for the Siamese government...in 45-70 ! The SMLE shoots the rimmed 303 British ! The Remington bolt action 788 was made in 30-30 and 44 mag - both rimmed.
Further, the Handi is chambered for many rimless cartridges. My 223 fires and extracts flawlessly every time, just like my rimmed 357 Max.
In British cartridge parlance, rimmed cartridges are for double rifles (which are like 2 Handi soldered together, lol), and rimless cartridges are for bolt guns.
My conclusion is to always suspect dogma, and when faced with it, ask "How do you know this to be true ?" Secondly, the world of firearms is rife with exceptions to rules. Never say never; keep your mind open more than your mouth, haha !

[gendoc]

I'd let the crybaby rimless vs rimmed PMs blow out on the same breeze they came in on. Tell them to read more posts... H&R/NEF produces a reliable product - period, plain and simple. With that being said, I still prefer rimmed cartridges in my Handi.


This is just my onion.


Thanks, Dinny

 
nobody said the pm's were about rimmed vs rimless   i really have no idea where you got that from.
 
they were mostly about wanting to know why some folks say the rimmed "are better"
more or less condeming the rimless.............
 
as far as tha crybaby stuff goes, there ain't been none on my behalf
 
but, i do appreciate you state'n thats your opinion.

[Dinny]

Doc,
  It's all good! Thinking about this subject for all of two minutes today I realized that most posts that I read are someone's own personal opinion. Isn't that kinda the point of having us all assembled together, to share opinionated information? Why should we post a disclaimer stating that which is already understood? Maybe not everyone understands it that way, but I do.   Admittedly, that doesn't make me right though.


Thanks, Dinny

[demented]

  Until  I got on here and saw all y'all braggin' on your Handi rifles, I'd made up my mind to NEVER own another.  Y'all talked me into trying just one more, so I bought a 30-30 and couldn't be more pleased.   Now, I'm about to get my courage up enough to go for a .308, hopefully with the information here, a little bit of luck and a whole lot of advice, it can be made shoot well- just in case it shoots like the last one I had. (three inches, best it'd do @100)

[keith44]

  Until  I got on here and saw all y'all braggin' on your Handi rifles, I'd made up my mind to NEVER own another.  Y'all talked me into trying just one more, so I bought a 30-30 and couldn't be more pleased.   Now, I'm about to get my courage up enough to go for a .308, hopefully with the information here, a little bit of luck and a whole lot of advice, it can be made shoot well- just in case it shoots like the last one I had. (three inches, best it'd do @100)

A .308 should do much better than that!  Do you roll yer own or rely on factory ammo?  In either case the .308's I have been around shoot best with 168 grain bullets.

[quickdtoo]

Factory standard accuracy is 2" or less 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, send it back if it won't do that, even a 243 Superlight will do that....... for the first three shots! 

Timu

[tacklebury]

Only thing so far that I like Rimmed rounds better for is up here in the frozen north, it's a LOT easier to get ahold of the bottom of a .45-70 rim than the unrimmed .223 (my only rimless).  I cannot even use my strip search gloves and get the .223 out, but the .45-70, the gloves never come off. 

[twoshooter]

Sure thing. It follows to reason that when we bought what we have, we had a choice. I don;t think many of us deliberately bought something we did not like or thought was inferior. Therefore, everyone has preferences, and a reason for that preference, based on their own goals and experiences. No matter where, when, or how, anytime a group of people get together there will be differences discovered, and subgroups will develop. This is rimmed versus rimless, Has anyone stopped to consider what is missing here? There is not a single magnum ? Not one belted cartridge ? ( Well, the 450 Marlin, MAYBE) Wanna bet that if there were only rimmed cartridges, we would not be having a debate over bottlenecked versus straight/ tapered cartridges ? We love to argue about it, almost as much as we love our handis. Almost.

Always remember it is US versus the lever guys, or US and the lever guys against the bolt guys, or ALL of US versus the "black rifle" guys..... it is just that handis are better. Especially rimmed handis   

[Spanky]

Factory standard accuracy is 2" or less 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, send it back if it won't do that, even a 243 Superlight will do that....... for the first three shots! 

Timu

Does that standard apply to the 45/410 barrel too?
 
 
 
Spanky

[Smokin Joe]

Well, you know we could argue Blondes, Redheads and Brunettes, too........

Here's one that should please everyone   

[twoshooter]

OMG!! You Have found the Holy Grail Joe! I want two, and I dont even know what it is. That in a shorty, with a thumbhole mannlicher stock, see through mounts with fiber optic sights AND a 4X-20X lighted mil-dot reticle Leupold scope with tactical target turrets, tactical light AND bayonet, bipod, with built in GPS and rangefinder. For use during our primitive weapon season. We went so far out we came back. I need my medication and a nap.

[quickdtoo]

Factory standard accuracy is 2" or less 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, send it back if it won't do that, even a 243 Superlight will do that....... for the first three shots! 

Tim

Does that standard apply to the 45/410 barrel too?
 
Spanky

I don't think so, that isn't a rifle barrel and doesn't have sights from the factory, just a bead.

Tim

[Smokin Joe]

I need my medication and a nap

 

[keith44]

Well, you know we could argue Blondes, Redheads and Brunettes, too........

Here's one that should please everyone   

nope it's bottle necked