Black powder in the 357

[bilmac]

I just got done checking out the thread about making your own blackpowder and it got me thinking. If things got to where you couldn't buy smokeless, could I keep on shooting blackpowder. I have a muzzleloader, but I also have a 45-70 a 30-30 and a 357. They were all originally blackpowder cartridges, well the 38 special was. I expect the 45 and 30 would perform pretty well, but I am wondering what kind of performance you could expect from the 357. I am thinking that it would get in the 800 to 1000fps range. Has anyone played around with blackpowder in the 357?

[Seth Hawkins]

There's no reason why you can't use black powder in any cartridge.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Yes the .357 will do just fine with BP.  I don't know that the extra 1/8-inch of case translates to a whole lot more snort when using BP though.  Might gain 50 fps.  Or if anything you can use the extra room for lube cookies and such.
 
I know my 6.5" Blackhawk throws 158 grain bullets at 930 fps with .38 cases filled with Swiss FFFg.
 
Oh. and the .30-30 was actually first intended to be used with smokeless.  To the best of my knowlege it was never a BP cartridge.  The .38-55 case from which the .30-30 came was indeed a BP cartridge. 
 
I don't know what kind of power you'd get loading a .30-30 with BP though. 

[bilmac]

I knew that, I had a senior moment or something. I think the second 30 in 30-30 was because it used 30 gr of smokeless powder.

About 1000 fps from a 38sp loaded with black powder, that's impressive. The old special wasn't half bad even back in olden days.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Yeah.  Swiss powder is pretty good stuff.  And the black powder they had back then was really good too.
 
I remember an anthropology professor testing us on various spear/arrow points and asking which were the oldest vs. which were the newest.  To our surprise the older flint arrowheads were the ones that were far, far better quality.  The symetry was incredible.  Of course we students all thought that as time goes on and man learns how to make arrowheads better the newer ones ought to be superior.
 
Then the professor taught us a lesson.  Men figured out pretty quickly how to perfect the art of flint-knapping, and the older spearpoints come from a time when a man's livelihood depended on the accuracy of the weapon.  Later, when man learned to farm & raise stock, hunting only served to augment the diet and less time and effort was put into perfecting the weapons.
 
The same principal can be applied to Black Powder.  Back when BP was the only gunpowder available people put a lot of care into making quality BP.  Later when smokeless took over as the workhorse gunpowder the number of different companies competing for the black powder market dwindled.  Today we've seen a bit of a comeback though - which is good. 

[bilmac]

I think you've got it pretty well figgured Jack. There might have been something else going on when men forgot how to make the fine clovis and folsom points. The archeologists think that there was a massive population collapse when the ancient indians disappeared.

It is amazing how fast knowledge can disappear. The artillery units in Nam shot their 155 mil guns in any direction in just minutes. There were no lines of battle, the firebases were literally  surrounded.  Six or seven years later I joined a National Guard artillery unit and they were trying to figure out how they had done that in Nam. There was nothing written down. I wasn't any help because I was infantry in the war. They figgured something out that worked on the armory floor but I don't think it would have worked very well out in the mud.

[quasne.inc]

Could one of yall help me find the thread about making your own black powder. 

[tacklebury]

Could one of yall help me find the thread about making your own black powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103852 

[quasne.inc]

Thanks Tacklebury!

[tacklebury]

No problem.   I'm prepping to make my first set of charcoal to make my first set of home made Willow BP myself.  I am intending to use BP for most of my cartridge loading someday.  Except of course for certain bottle-necks which don't really do it well.  I shot my 40-60 Marlin today with a Goex fffg under a 240 gr. lead RNFP and drilled a milk jug of red water at 25 yards in a white out snow storm!  lol  Gonna be loading my .45-70, .45 Colt and 40-60 Marlin with my Homemade powder by summer hopefully. 

[bilmac]

Have you figgured out a source for the potassium yet? What I read about homemade is that sulphur is used mostly to lower the ignition temperature, otherwise the powder without it is just as good or better. I would think that you could do without the sulfur in cartridges.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  bilmac, an old .32 Special would be perfect for your plans...
  Black J. that was a very interesting bit of information on the spear points and black powder..made my day...learned something new...

[tacklebury]

This thread has multiple sources for the many things needed for various phases and styles of bp.  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131827
 
You do NOT need to add the sulphur unless you are using a flintlock or doing BPCR.  The sole purpose of the sulphur is to reduce the ignition temperature of the powder you make.  This is important in flint locks because unless a flint is kept very sharp and sparks well, you might get misfires.  Similarly, if you use one of the Forester Tap-a-Cap percussion caps that use kids cap gun caps to make your own, it's not really too hot either.  BPCR Rules require the smoke from sulphur, so you have to add it for that also.  If you have a Lowes near you there's the Spectracide Stump Remover that's almost pure KNO3 and makes decent powder.  Most of the guys get it cheaper by mail through a chemical company though.  Read through the posts carefully as there are several different styles of powder in that thread.  Kerneled, non-kerneled, sifted, etc. 
 
Yep, I forgot to add that my circa 1926 .32 Winchester Model 94 (great grandma's porch gun) will be getting doses of this also.  As will the 1881 40-60 Marlin. 
   

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  When shooting Black in lever action rifles, and sixguns, how do you get 'em clean?? I can see a 6 gun the cylinder could be pulled and that cleaned, but how about the barrel and with the rifle, how do you clean the barrel w/o getting liquid in the action...I used a solution as well as hot H20 to clean my old T>C 50 cal..but haven 't shot it in 10 years....

[Cuts Crooked]

When shooting Black in lever action rifles, and sixguns, how do you get 'em clean? ? I can see a 6 gun the cylinder could be pulled and that cleaned, but how about the barrel and with the rifle, how do you clean the barrel w/o getting liquid in the action...I used a solution as well as hot H20 to clean my old T>C 50 cal..but haven 't shot it in 10 years....

With a straight wall cartridge rifle I just put a fired case in the chamber, close the action, and clean it like a frontstuffer. Wet & dry alternating patches until it comes out clean, remove the case from the action and give the chamber a good cleaning with a short brush/patch. If the fouling gets into the action, I take off the butt stock and hose out the action with brake cleaner, followed by a good soaking with spray lube......let it drain, and put the butt stock back on...done! 

BTW, cut the case head off a 30-30 shell and ya got a nice muzzle protector fer a .357 so ya don' mess up the crown on yer barrel when cleaning this way.

[John Boy]

When shooting Black in lever action rifles, and sixguns, how do you get 'em clean?

I just put a fired case in the chamber, close the action, and clean it like a frontstuffer.

Cuts, that's a real nifty idea.  Have never heard of the method before.  Thanks, will have to give it a try.

Hunter, black powder foul is composed primarily of potassium bicarbonate that has been removed from firearms for eons using water - hot tap water works good.  My thinking was, if hot tap water works, why not steam?  So I bought & have used a hand steam cleaner with a pointed spout. 

Using the steam cleaner, I am now down to 43 minutes needed to clean 2 revolvers - 1 lever action and 1 SxS shotgun ... about 10 minutes per for the four firearm

[Nobade]

Heck, I don't even go that far. I just grab the rifle in my padded vise upside down with the action open. I push patches through the bore from the muzzle and remove them by hand when they have cleared the chamber. It usually only takes a couple and it's clean. Then I push an oiled patch wet with Ballistol through to leave the bore oily and it's done. BP cleans up a lot faster and easier than smokeless.

This does assume you have annealed your cartridge cases. That prevents fouling from being blown back into the action. If you are using non-annealed cases you'll want to clean out the innards too. For that I remove the stocks, pour in hot water, blow dry, and wet it out with WD-40 to remove any residual moisture. Blow dry again and reassemble. It's easier to anneal the cases.