current AKs-any better than others?

[hansg/Ups]

Are any of the current AK clones[7,62x39] more reliable than others?,best value for the $$$?
I'm considering trying to trade my preBan Chinese SKS for an AK.
Thanks.

[schuetzen]

Best value (bang for the buck) is probably the Saiga.  Saigas are made in the same factory as the AK rifles in Russia.  You can find new 7.62x39mm versions for ~$350.  They must be modified and 922r compliant to use higher capacity AK magazines however.

[mcwoodduck]

There are a conflict of issues with the statement Any better than others and any more reliable?
To make an AK mor reliable the tolerances are loose, to make it better the tolerances need to be tight to be accurate.
With that said the Chineese Norinco or the Siaga are both great.
Years ago I bought an AK and realized It was not what I wanted and ended up getting an AR.
I think the use of the AR platform in the M16 and the M4 have proven reliable over the 50 years it has been in service.
The failures the AR had were MacNamera whiz kid mistakes.  They thought gun powder was gun powder and that chrome lining was not needed. 
The powder for hte 30-06 was used as the government had tons of it, instead of the powder needed for the 223 round. 
If you want an AK then get an AK but do not think the AR are not reliable.

[Bart Solo]

As somebody once said the only interesting gun is an accurate gun.  Recently, I watched a side by side comparison of the AK and the AR.  There are a lot of reasons American servicemen nearly always come out on top when exchanging fire with AK users, but one of the biggest is accuracy.  You can just flat hit what you are aiming at with an AR.  I am not so sure you can say that about an AK. 
 
Did you know you can buy an AR in 7.62 X 39?  That should produce a fairly accurate rifle using cheaper Russian bullets. 
 
As somebody else once said, an AK is a peasant's rifle. It was designed for use by Russian conscripts many of whom were illiterate peasants just off the farm. It's great advantage is any pumpkin head can use and abuse one and expect it to go bang pretty much every time. An AR is a professional soldier's rifle. After it's initial teething problems it has served the American soldier well for 50 years.  The current models are very robust and very well proven.   
 
 

[cjclemens]

Did you know you can buy an AR in 7.62 X 39?  That should produce a fairly accurate rifle using cheaper Russian bullets.

You can, but I dont think there is a legitamate fix to the magazine problem that occurs when you shove tapered cartridges into a fairly straight magazine.  If you want reliable 7.62x39 performance in an AR platform, 300 AAC Blackout or 6.8 SPC is the way to go.  Unfortunately, unless you reload, ammo starts to get really pricy at that point.  That being said, the topic has strayed from the original question, which was:
 

Are any of the current AK clones[7,62x39] more reliable than others?,best value for the $$$?

Thats a question I cant answer.  I havent really looked at current offerings, and I'm not sure what prices are these days.  I have an older AK, but I dont know the brand.  All I know is that it shoots about minute of pickup truck at 100 yards.  I dont see it as useful for much more than home defense.  As a result, it rarely sees the light of day.  I also have an older SKS that I put a synthetic stock and scope on - it shoots a 2-3" group at 100 yards, which makes it useful for coyotes and deer(where allowed).  Its also more rewarding to shoot targets with since you can actually hit stuff.  I would never trade an SKS in for an AK, but thats just me.  You should consider what you want to do with the rifle before you make a decision.

[ratdog]

keep your sks .i have had ak not as accurate. or get an a r in the same caliber or 223 can't go wrong.

[hunt-m-up]

I have a WASR single stack AK with a red dot mounted on it that will do 3" at 100 yards. I've also had a Yugo SKS that was a heavy inaccurate piece of crap and my neighbor has a Chinese SKS that won't do better than paper plate groups.
Having said that, after the synthetic stock,etc that I put on my gun, AR's have come down enough that I would just go that route and have a MOA shooter.

[Doubletap]

  Of the AK's laying around the house the most accurate in 7.62 calibre are my Norinco's.  Both are Mak90's that have had the conversion to traditional AK format, sans the cleaning rod and bayo lug, which I don't find objectionable but YMMV.  The best of these will hold head shots to 350 yards when I read the wind right.  Yes they have low powered optics on them. 
  My worst is a Maadi ARM, which with its favorite ammo will work hard to stay under 4" at 100.  Buying a Polish AKM kit and a Nodak Spud receiver should get you started on a good AK today.  Might look at the Arsenal, Inc. Bulgy stuff too.  It's not cheap, but neither is a custom build with all Euro major components. 
  The Saiga's seem to be a good news/bad news thing.  Some are built up one way, others differently.  If you are going to do a conversion on them look them over carefully before putting your money down, after you've learned the steps you'll be doing for the conversions. 
  In general you'll find something built on an RPK receiver (i.e. Norinco, Yugo, custom) tend to be more rigid and hence more accurate.  If you are looking at the Century built stuff it's a total crap shoot and good luck!

[Bugflipper]

 You pretty well have 3 choices with an AK.


Buy an assembled parts kit which dependant on price, directly reflects the quality of the rifle. IE; Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne(and forgot the other two names) are rip off artists that change their name every time they ruin their reputation. They have tried several different platforms. The loose tolerances of the AK yield a functioning firearm most of the time. At least they are honest enough to offer a warranty that properly represents their quality, none.


Century AKs are a small step up from Hesse. Never heard of one that wouldn't fire when it was new and taken home. So at least they must test them out before sending them out the door. They used to skip that step with their hk91s I guess. Just like Hesse they ruined their name long ago trying to make HKs and other clones. The AK platform is letting them stay in business.


Arsenal Arms, not good not bad. They are a budget friendly assembler. You get one that cycles very well, but 4" groups are about all you should expect. If you go with them try to stick with Eastern Bloc country parts kits. The furniture and metal is usually a little better.


Vector Arms makes a good rifle off of Hungarian and Polish kits. They do it right, but you pay for it. I only have one of these. I bought it because I liked the side folding solid stock they came out with. It runs around 3" groups with cheap ammo. Since you said value for the money I will stop with this one because the price is starting to get high.


The next option is to buy older Chinese imports, Polytec and Norinco are the king of the crop when it comes to an AK in the USA. They were manufactured at the same two plants that the Chi Coms have been running out AKs for the last 50 years. The experts say they make a better AK than the Russians. Norinco MAK 90s were Chinese parts kits but were also very good. The only detraction was a press fit akm barrel put on an AK receiver. Hasn't been shown to be an issue in 22 years though. MAK90s have an ugly thumbhole stock. Most people buy a stock set and get rid of the uncomfortable thumbhole stock. The accuracy is not exceptional. But these rifles will usually run in the 2"-3" range with cheap russian ammo. Good ammo can hover at or just over 1" with a little trigger job. AKs are not tack drivers but they get a bad rap from the assembled parts kits that most people in the US own.


The third option is converting a saiga to look like an AK or buying one from Krebs of Krebs, Red Jacket or AK-USA and paying dearly for them. Whoops sorry, reread the for the money part, just look at their pictures to see what a saiga can look like in AK clothes.    In any case they are not a true AK. They have tighter tolerances, meaning not as dependable in adverse or neglected situations. But they are generally not to bad in the accuracy department. They can be a bit of a pain to find the conversion stocks for. Most will shoot better than an inch with good ammo and 1.5"-2" with cheap stuff. Again factoring in a good trigger which really no AK has but can be made better by polishing. The conversion may get up close to a vector arms kit. It just depends if the cheaper sources have the stocks in or not.


Good luck.

[gendoc]

keep your sks .i have had ak not as accurate. or get an a r in the same caliber or 223 can't go wrong.

roger that !!!! RATDOG
as far as ar's are concerned......only a chosen few are "accurate" above the romanian or original
russian sks.  i can tellya from personal experiance, they were made for one thing.... and they done
a good job of it.  just take a ar, 16 or 4 and submerge it in muddy water, you think it will continue to operate?
if you "feel lucky" it might. but it most probably won't. and it was not because the type ammo...
i carried a m16a2 for 7 months....... the remaining 7 years, i did not !!!  and i feel i probaly would not have survived if i would have.
 
 
 

[demented]

 Keep the SKS, have a trigger job done, stripper clips are cheap and don't weigh near as much as AK mags.   If you really want an AK,  keep the SKS and go buy a WASR.  No sense spending $800 or more on an AK then shooting Russian ammo through it, it ain't all that good.   My opinion is other than some AK's not having chrome lined barrels, an AK is an AK is an AK.

[SHOOTALL]

OK , you want an accurate rifle that shoots commie ammo . Well there is a company making AR's that accept AK mags the lower is re designed to work . Its on the front of AR magazine on display now. I can't remember the producer but it is a top manf. of AR's.
 
HEY HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ! 

[ironglow]

keep your sks .i have had ak not as accurate. or get an a r in the same caliber or 223 can't go wrong.

roger that !!!! RATDOG
as far as ar's are concerned......only a chosen few are "accurate" above the romanian or original
russian sks.  i can tellya from personal experiance, they were made for one thing.... and they done
a good job of it.  just take a ar, 16 or 4 and submerge it in muddy water, you think it will continue to operate?
if you "feel lucky" it might. but it most probably won't. and it was not because the type ammo...
i carried a m16a2 for 7 months....... the remaining 7 years, i did not !!!  and i feel i probaly would not have survived if i would have.

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  It depends when you used your M16..  The early m16s got a bad rap because on Mcnamara & co (the bean counter)  Mcwooduck has already explained it in this thread.
  My grandson was a Spec Ops Marine (armorer) in Al Anbar prov.  Being Spec Ops, he could any rifle he wished, including the enemy's.  He chose his M16 platform above any.  He studied gunsmithing much deeper and is now employed by a major military contractor..with a job much like the "Sons of guns" TV show.  He told me when on one of his Iraqi deployments, that the AK was nowhere near as good as the M16.  Besides his regular job, he builds custom ARs for varminters and competition shooters.
  Even thinking of rechambering an AR to 7.62X39 is unreasonable.  If one wants a heavier caliber, there are great ARs being built chambered for the .308 Win.
  If a person shoots a semi-auto centerfire he really should reload, but even if he doesn't, cheap .223 steel cased is in the same price neighborhood as cheap, steel cased 7.69x39.
  I can't imagine anyone suggesting an AK is fully as accurate as an AR.  If they were, the top varmint/predator hunters would be using them, why pay more ?
  Today's m16 derivitives are fully as capable for Spec Opsas the AK...and it is MORE ACCURATE..  Of course any rifleman worth his salt will not allow his rifle to corrode and gum up..

[SHOOTALL]

With all due respect many feel the 7.62 X 39  brings something to the AR platform . From a US military point of view it would seem reasonable they would have no use for it as would most trained by them. But from a commerical view there are several reasons the first that comes to mind is in Va. you cannot hunt deer with a 22 cal rifle. At some point 7.62X39 ammo was very well priced for the plinker. The AR 10 does offer 308 options but at greater weight both in rifles and ammo not to mention cost in both. The AR 15 lower is restricted by the mag well as to what it can be adapted to shoot. The mag in the AR is also a week point as the way it is held in position. The AK mag rockes in to position and is held in a more solid hold. The new AR i mentioned above has be redesigned to accomidate the AK mag and more solid hold. I do not have a 7.62X39 AR nor plant to get one at this point , but an AR with the power of a 30-30 makes sense to me.

[ironglow]

  I dion't own a military style rifle, I left them when I left the military.  However, as stated in my reply#12 above, my grandson is the best AR expert I know.  He has had a penchant for accurate rifles since I started him on woodchucks with a Marlin25N.. which he carried through 2 Marine Spec Ops deployments in Iraq, where he was one of 2 appointed overwatch/snipers for his unit when needed.
   Today, he is fast building a reputation for accurate, custom ARs.. his custom builds are not just assembling parts..everything that needs it is reworked/refined;  Go down this page to see several examples of his work;
 
    http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,252891.msg1099525592.html#msg1099525592
 
 Since he is the top expert in the field that I know, I'll take his word for it..

[gendoc]

keep your sks .i have had ak not as accurate. or get an a r in the same caliber or 223 can't go wrong.

roger that !!!! RATDOG
as far as ar's are concerned......only a chosen few are "accurate" above the romanian or original
russian sks.  i can tellya from personal experiance, they were made for one thing.... and they done
a good job of it.  just take a ar, 16 or 4 and submerge it in muddy water, you think it will continue to operate?
if you "feel lucky" it might. but it most probably won't. and it was not because the type ammo...
i carried a m16a2 for 7 months....... the remaining 7 years, i did not !!!  and i feel i probaly would not have survived if i would have.

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  It depends when you used your M16.. 

bad rap hell !!!!!!!!! i was in there in 1966 and they were plain junk !!!!!!!!
no. i'm not from the 90's and later campaine's so the hypo is in error.
lets see if any other of the guy's here know what i'm talk'n bout...........
as far as you say...."  Of course any rifleman worth his salt will not allow his rifle to corrode and gum up"
 
when do you think there was time to maintenance your weapon when its fire-fights 24/7 !!!!
thats the way it was then.
 
hey in that time, you knew one thing.... survival of the code, the code of brotherhood.
 ethics were laid to rest 2 days after phenom phen.
ONCE A MARINE...ALWAYS A MARINE...ALWAYS FAITHFUL !!!!!!!
i'm proud of your son !!! as i am my own. my son is an 16year armorer for "distance control".
they know not of the time i experianced.  and i am glad technology has strengthened to protect our
men from it.
 
 
 
 

[ironglow]

keep your sks .i have had ak not as accurate. or get an a r in the same caliber or 223 can't go wrong.

roger that !!!! RATDOG
as far as ar's are concerned......only a chosen few are "accurate" above the romanian or original
russian sks.  i can tellya from personal experiance, they were made for one thing.... and they done
a good job of it.  just take a ar, 16 or 4 and submerge it in muddy water, you think it will continue to operate?
if you "feel lucky" it might. but it most probably won't. and it was not because the type ammo...
i carried a m16a2 for 7 months....... the remaining 7 years, i did not !!!  and i feel i probaly would not have survived if i would have.

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  It depends when you used your M16.. 

bad rap hell !!!!!!!!! i was in there in 1966 and they were plain junk !!!!!!!!
no. i'm not from the 90's and later campaine's so the hypo is in error.
lets see if any other of the guy's here know what i'm talk'n bout...........
as far as you say...."  Of course any rifleman worth his salt will not allow his rifle to corrode and gum up"
 
when do you think there was time to maintenance your weapon when its fire-fights 24/7 !!!!
thats the way it was then.
 
hey in that time, you knew one thing.... survival of the code, the code of brotherhood.
 ethics were laid to rest 2 days after phenom phen.
ONCE A MARINE...ALWAYS A MARINE...ALWAYS FAITHFUL !!!!!!!
i'm proud of your son !!! as i am my own. my son is an 16year armorer for "distance control".
they know not of the time i experianced.  and i am glad technology has strengthened to protect our
men from it.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
    I know you had a hard time with the mattel back then, but I do believe much of it was due to the Army using ball powder instead of the flake powder Stoner insisted upon.  The ball powder operated at higher pressure..slamming the bolt back faster than designed for..eventually causing problems..much like consistently using 5.56 mil ammo in most .223 Rem rifles.  the pressure spike eventually gives trouble.
  The other problem was "bean counter" McNamara, who was too cheap to spend a couple bucks for a chrome lined barrel..another thing Stoner insisted upon, especially for the steamy jungles of Nam.  A corroded, crusty chamber will result in a jam.
  I won't rule out teething problems, and the M16 was very new in 1966.  If you experienced them, surely there must have been a problem.  Many miles and years between the "sweat box" of Nam and the "sand box" of Iraq'..or the "rock pile" of Afghanistan.
     My grandson being Spec Ops, was also often out 24/7 in 'Indian country' and still preferred his M4 to any of the many AK variants available to him.  He is a strong proponent of accuracy..one of the stark differences between the two.
  Yes the M4/m16 is more prone to jamming under adverse conditions than the AKs...simply because 1 or 2 thousandths of an inc clearance between moving parts is much different than 10 to 15 thousandths of slop between parts.  Obviously, with that kind of "tolerance' sand of 3thousandths will cause a problem with one more than the other.but that is the nature of precision and accuracy.
  In the sand box the best lube for that white powder sand was lube containing CLP.. the same stuff Break Free uses in their formula
  This thread is concerning the current production ARs and AKs however..a rather different situation.  More specifically, the AR vs the AK for hunting or competition  Just go to the Youtube videos of some of our top varmint and predator hunters and see how many are using AKs and how many are using ARs..must be a reason they are willing to pay 3 times as much for an AR..the rifles my grandson builds are more than that of course..
  My military rifles were the M1 and the M14, but I don't own any mil-style rifles.. My .223s are a Savage 11G and an NEF.
   
    BTW thanks for you and your son's service...

[SHOOTALL]

  I dion't own a military style rifle, I left them when I left the military.  However, as stated in my reply#12 above, my grandson is the best AR expert I know.  He has had a penchant for accurate rifles since I started him on woodchucks with a Marlin25N.. which he carried through 2 Marine Spec Ops deployments in Iraq, where he was one of 2 appointed overwatch/snipers for his unit when needed.
   Today, he is fast building a reputation for accurate, custom ARs.. his custom builds are not just assembling parts..everything that needs it is reworked/refined;  Go down this page to see several examples of his work;
 
    http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,252891.msg1099525592.html#msg1099525592
 
 Since he is the top expert in the field that I know, I'll take his word for it..

A field with many experts for sure . BTW its a poor dog that won't wag its own tail. I hope he is very successful and no cuts intended .

[Richard P]

 Thanks for all the information provided.  Would someone (or several) comment on the ak known as NHM91, a Norinco made. Thank you. rp 

[ironglow]

  I dion't own a military style rifle, I left them when I left the military.  However, as stated in my reply#12 above, my grandson is the best AR expert I know.  He has had a penchant for accurate rifles since I started him on woodchucks with a Marlin25N.. which he carried through 2 Marine Spec Ops deployments in Iraq, where he was one of 2 appointed overwatch/snipers for his unit when needed.
   Today, he is fast building a reputation for accurate, custom ARs.. his custom builds are not just assembling parts..everything that needs it is reworked/refined;  Go down this page to see several examples of his work;
 
    http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,252891.msg1099525592.html#msg1099525592
 
 
 
 Since he is the top expert in the field that I know, I'll take his word for it..

A field with many experts for sure . BTW its a poor dog that won't wag its own tail. I hope he is very successful and no cuts intended .

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
    Thanks Shootall;
    He took this position upon leaving the Corps in November... There are 2700 employees where he works..he is one of the 7 gunsmiths there.  He was chosen 'employee of the month", just last month.. he loves his job (that is worth a lot).
  His reputation with the AR platform is spreading by word of mouth..  He has all the orders he wants to do in his small custom shop..

[Lloyd Smale]

they were not doubt hated in the mid 60s but by the  early 70s  the only guys really bitching about the m16 were the old timers that were around in the 60s. Most liked the 16 where i was. It was light, accurate and you could pack alot of ammo. Ive got a couple aks and quite a few ars. Will i say the ars are as reliable as an ak. No. If you get a GOOD ak theres probably not a autoloader any more reliable. Does that mean im calling an ar not reliable. HELL no! Ive shot 10s of thousands of rounds threw ars and if you feed them good ammo and have enough common sense to keep them at least reasonalby clean they run like a clock. the mini 14 guys claim they like there guns better because there more reliable then an ar but ive found just the oposite. IF your the type that is lazy or so stupid you dont know how to take care of a rifle you might be better served by an ar. But if you have a bit more common sense then the rag heads they give aks to your going to be better served by an ar. Its plenty reliable and can actually hit something out past a 100 yards. As to only the exceptional ar being accurate. Again that might have been the case in the 60s but I own 7 ars right now all from diffenent manufacutres. I have them in 223, 762x39 (which by the way runs as reliably as any of the others)  50 beowulf and an ar10 308 and theres not a one of them that wont do at least moa with loads they like and some will do quite a bit better then that. Whens the last time you saw ANY ak shoot moa??
 

I chuckle but understand some of the oldtimers that were actually let down by ars. But for the most part it was just a matter of our goverment jumping in and buying them because they were cheap before they really tested the gun to make sure it was right. Once the teathing pains were over within a few years it was a good gun. One that has saved more american lives then any other mechanical device ever made short of the m1 grand and by now it probably has even surpassed the m1. Even in the special forces that allow guys to use about any gun the ar gets more use then about anything. But old predudices die hard. I have an uncle that was in ww2 and his platton was pinned down by a sniper. He was carrying a m1 carbine. He shot that sniper 5 times before he quit shooting back and even then didnt kill him. I once brought over a nice carbine i picked up cheap and i thought he was going to break it over the wood pile. I had to physicaly get it away from him. To this day you dont want to bring up m1 carbines around him but hand him a garand and he gets all teary eyed.

[ironglow]

  Lloyd;
  You said it quite well, my grandson (ironglowjr) was a special forces Marine in Al Anbar, which includes Fallujah & Ramadi.  He could have used anything he wanted, AKs included.  House-to-house he preferred the M4 for a rifle...but in that room-to-room stuff the Mossy 500 is hard to beat.
   One problem, beyond the govt gumming up the works, which caused some of the anger ..was the original M16 being operated by.. direct impingement.  When the M16A1 came out, that problem was cured with a short stroke piston which vented directly to the air.
  I understand the frustration some had with the M16s along about 66-68 .. but those failures have no bearing on today's rifles.
 
Please note; the British SAS, an elite force which takes a back seat to noone, has chosen the C8 as their main assault rifle'
The C8 is a Canadian built M4 variant.
 
  Who knows, I may have him build me a custom AR10 in .308 for deer & bear ?  Of course, NY State has some ridiculous rules of their own..10 round max, no collapsible stock etc..which inhibits much in personal builds.
 
  All this being said, our own military is considering replacements, one of which is an H&K weapon.

[SHOOTALL]

from a non militay point of view . I got a Colt HB bak in the 80's it was a rattle trap after a few 100 rounds and any thing over 55 gr was a pattern more than a group. With the carry handle a good scope for ground hog hunting was hard to deal with.  Traded it for the same set up from Bushmaster with same result. So I got an M1A and was pleased , and it show well with its NM bbl. and I hunted deer with it . Life was good. Well friends got AR's that didn't rattle asc much and when they did they had a fix , couple fixes that worked. so a couple years ago after many years of cutting down the AR I got a new one . I built it to see if I could a great experince . It shoots well. Its 6.8 SPC ( can deer hunt with it) . So now I am warming up to them once more. I would suggest if you are going to make a judgement on the gun you need to shoot, hunt and live with it for some time. I don't know if its the best in all or any uses but it will work in what I do. I hund deer , and other critters . The AR is alot more carry friendly . The M1A is more long range friendly . I have a 16 inch 1 in 7 twist 5,56 bbl to try ( I like short bbls ) with a suppressor while target shooting and fox, bobcat and yote hunting at night (legal here) so we will see.
After building and help building several more the amount of differing  info, plain BS and false info out there is enough to make anyone believe the gun is worthless .

[ironglow]

Yep.... all kinds of stories..some pro, some con...guess It's just as you said..ya have to try any gun for a while.  As I said earlier in this post, I'm not a huge fan of military style rifles..although an AR10 in .308 would be very tempting.
   I'll probably be poking around for deer/bear this fall, with an H&R  in .243 Win. either in 100 gr nosler partitions or 100gr Hornady interlocks.
   Not having used the M16, but rather the M1 Garand and the M14, it would probably be awkward at first.

[SHOOTALL]

It was arkward for me at first . Even after hunting with it for a season it still feels odd after years of 94's , bolt gun and shotgun. Ya got to live with what you shoot if you want to be good with it.

[Bugflipper]

Thanks for all the information provided.  Would someone (or several) comment on the ak known as NHM91, a Norinco made. Thank you. rp

I used to have one of them. To begin with it didn't have any more accuracy than a normal norinco. I took off the muzzle cap and put a slash style break on it. At that point  it would outshoot my other norincos. No documentation of groups back then. For comparison sake I have the same aks as back then and a type 81 that is pretty well a pre-ban nhm91 without a bipod. The Norincos will usually hold 3" groups or so with cheap ammo. The type 81 will stay around 2" or so with the same. Just for comparison sake, assuming the 91 was pretty close.
 They have a rivet blocking normal mags. No batf rules, just something they did at the factory. Mine came with two 30 rnd and a 75 rnd so it wasn't to limit them to 10 rnds. The rivet can be easily removed and the german and russian mags will fit then. A lot of folks are trashing the thumbhole stocks and putting on a rpk butt stock and ak grip. The nut is different for an rpk, so a fellow would have to find one if he wanted a rpk grip on it. Boyd made the thumbhole stocks so they weren't that terrible for ergonomics.
Pretty much they are just an ak clone with a longer barrel and thicker receiver. A type 56 and it's predecessors has a 1 mm thick stamped receiver. The type 81 and nhm91 have a 1.5 mm thick one. They are too heavy for anything short of shooting rested. That's why I got rid of mine. I was going to cut the bipod off but a fellow who had a type 81 wanted to swap since his didn't have a bipod.
Not a bad rifle besides the bipod. Anything norinco or polytec is the upper echelon when it comes to aks. They are better than the russian ones according to the experts.  There really isn't a comparison with today's assembled parts kits that are for sale. Some of the saigas can hang with the norincos when printing groups, but can't compare with the durability due to tighter tolerances. Some of the higher end aks have the durability down pat, but the groups usually aren't as tight as a norinco. The reason the chikoms are so accurate is, an ak barrel is press fit with a bushing into an akm receiver. It is more solid than an akm barrel to akm receiver.
http://www.ak-47.us/pic/books/nhm_91.pdf

[SHOOTALL]

For what its worth when I shot some club 3 gun matches some guys used AK's with good result longest target was 100 yards or so.
 
I use a very accurate 30 cal. carbine , little recoil 

[Richard P]

Hey, Bug.  That is the kind of answer I hoped I'd get.  You're a trooper.  Thank you.  Richard   

[PAHUnter04]

Hi Guys:
 
Ok I cut my teeth on a M14 & M16 in 71 & 72 in the service. I didn't start shooting AR15 type rifles again until about five years ago. Right now I personally have two, a RRA LAR15 that will do 1.5 inches at 100 yards with open sights. I put a Burris 332 scope on it and it's great. I also have a HB Bushmaster that will do sub half inch five shot groups at 100 yards with my Leupold setup. It is truly scary and and out shoots my varmint rifles.
 
All that being said. Give I.O.  Inc. a try. I believe the I.O. stands for Inter Ordnance. They are an American Made AK-47. They have the sweetest trigger I ever felt on a AK. I played around with one at my gunsmiths shop and said the heck with it and bought it. I bought four boxes of Tul Ammo 122 grain steel FMJ and had a bunch of loose steel cased 7.62 X 39 mm shells from the gunshop. It shot them all without a burp. So today I went to our 100 yard range and wanted to get serious on what this thing could do. I fired a few rounds to warm up, then put a Silhouette target up at 100 yards. My first three shots grouped at 100 yards was 1.5 inches with OPEN SIGHTS. The next six I ripped off semi rapid fire from the bench and spread across the chest area at about 4-5 inches. Again the triggers on these things are SWEET. The best part... you can get them OUT THE DOOR for about $595.00 or even less. and yes They are BRAND NEW AMERICAN MADE. They come wit TWO 30 round magazines, a cleaning kit, and an American Flag sticker...LOL. If you are interested PM me.
 
Regards PAHunter... The Head Hunter..

[ironglow]

Hi Guys:
 
Ok I cut my teeth on a M14 & M16 in 71 & 72 in the service. I didn't start shooting AR15 type rifles again until about five years ago. Right now I personally have two, a RRA LAR15 that will do 1.5 inches at 100 yards with open sights. I put a Burris 332 scope on it and it's great. I also have a HB Bushmaster that will do sub half inch five shot groups at 100 yards with my Leupold setup. It is truly scary and and out shoots my varmint rifles.
 
All that being said. Give I.O.  Inc. a try. I believe the I.O. stands for Inter Ordnance. They are an American Made AK-47. They have the sweetest trigger I ever felt on a AK. I played around with one at my gunsmiths shop and said the heck with it and bought it. I bought four boxes of Tul Ammo 122 grain steel FMJ and had a bunch of loose steel cased 7.62 X 39 mm shells from the gunshop. It shot them all without a burp. So today I went to our 100 yard range and wanted to get serious on what this thing could do. I fired a few rounds to warm up, then put a Silhouette target up at 100 yards. My first three shots grouped at 100 yards was 1.5 inches with OPEN SIGHTS. The next six I ripped off semi rapid fire from the bench and spread across the chest area at about 4-5 inches. Again the triggers on these things are SWEET. The best part... you can get them OUT THE DOOR for about $595.00 or even less. and yes They are BRAND NEW AMERICAN MADE. They come wit TWO 30 round magazines, a cleaning kit, and an American Flag sticker...LOL. If you are interested PM me.
 
Regards PAHunter... The Head Hunter..

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     Can you use a semi-auto for hunting in PA ?  I have been under the impression that even a .22 auto for squirrel was not allowed, have they changed that ?
  We sure shouldn't be caught with those 30 round magazines in "The People's Republik" of New York..