1000's involved with Cold War Secret...no leaks...

[TM7]

Often you will hear people say; "Too many people,  surely the secret would leak!"
BUT apparently Not so,  here............. read:

Decades later, a Cold War secret is revealed

http://articles.boston.com/2011-12-25/news...cific-ocean-spy

December 25, 2011, Boston Globe/Associated Press

At one point in the 1970s there were more than 1,000 people in the Danbury area working on The Secret. And though they worked long hours under intense deadlines, sometimes missing family holidays and anniversaries, they could tell no one — not even their wives and children — what they did. They were engineers, scientists, draftsmen and inventors. It was dubbed “Big Bird’’ and it was considered the most successful space spy satellite program of the Cold War era. From 1971 to 1986 a total of 20 satellites were launched, each containing 60 miles of film and sophisticated cameras that orbited the earth snapping vast, panoramic photographs of the Soviet Union, China and other potential foes. The film was shot back through the earth’s atmosphere in buckets that parachuted over the Pacific Ocean, where C-130 Air Force planes snagged them with grappling hooks. The scale, ambition and sheer ingenuity of Hexagon KH-9 was breathtaking. So too is the human tale of the 45-year-old secret that many took to their graves. Hexagon was declassified in September. “The question became, how do you hide an elephant?’’ a National Reconnaissance Office report stated at the time. It decided on a simple response: “What elephant?’’ Employees were told to ignore any questions from the media, and never confirm the slightest detail about what they worked on.

Note: This is another excellent example of how government is able to keep huge projects secret and covered, and how top secret military technology is often decades ahead of anything which has been publicly revealed. Note that even the existence of the National Reconnaissance Office, founded in 1960, was completely denied until it's existence was declassified in 1992. Does government lie, or just an entity for itself?  Without a doubt both...."Democracy ends where secrecy begins"...JFK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reco..._Office#History
 
....fyi............TM7

[Nuke41]

Often you will hear people say; "Too many people,  surely the secret would leak!"
BUT apparently Not so,  here............. read:

When I saw that article awhile back it warmed my heart, to know that a large group of patriotic Americans would keep a secret to protect the surveillance capabilities needed for our national security during the height of the Cold War, it seems you saw nefarious conspiracies at play as usual.
 Actually that isn’t anywhere near the best of example of large amounts of people being able to keep a secret, the Manhattan Project would probably be the best modern example, where thousands knew or could divine the ultimate goal and hundreds of thousands had some part in it.  I can think of at least 3 black plans/programs I was involved with that nearly 30 years later still haven’t been exposed, they haven’t even been hinted at as some eventually are.  Those programs may eventually be made public, but it won’t be by me.
 The real issue isn’t that the military and the government can’t come up with highly capable men and women willing to work in secret for the nations interests and keep those secrets to their deaths, the issue if where would they find large numbers willing to commit mass murder of their own countrymen as you propose happened on 9/11?
 During my time with the military, government and industry I’ve never met anyone that would betray their nation or be willing to kill an American citizen.  Would such highly trained and capable people be recruited from prisons or mental wards, where sociopaths are readily available?  I would doubt that would be a proper place to recruit the highly skilled people needed to plan and execute such complex conspiracies, especially if you expected them to keep it a secret forever.
 You accused me previously of judging the Islamic world too harshly, which may be a fair criticism based on my wartime experience with them.  What is your justification to judge your nation and its most dedicated citizens much more harshly?
 

[bilmac]

Thanks Nuke for defending TM's right to say dumb things.

[Graybeard]

the issue if where would they find large numbers willing to commit mass murder of their own countrymen as you propose happened on 9/11?

Your faith or confidence in your fellow man is far greater than mine. I'm more of a realist. I firmly believe that rat now today the majority of our military and LEO personnel would follow whatever order given them to murder US Citizens and would do so with no hesitation.

[Casull]

GB, that's where you and I would part company.  Would you do this?  Would the majority of your family members do this?  Would the majority of your friends do this?  If they wouldn't, why do you think the majority of others would do this?

[bilmac]

Wanna live someplace else? Accuse the government of Iran of killing it's own innocent civilians and they would probably throw you in jail, even though you can stand on a street corner and watch them do it.

[Lost Farmboy]

GB, that's where you and I would part company.  Would you do this?  Would the majority of your family members do this?  Would the majority of your friends do this?  If they wouldn't, why do you think the majority of others would do this?

 
Kent State?

[Casull]

Kent State?

 
 
Wow, I didn't know a majority of our military and LEO's were at Kent State (and the majority of those present did NOT fire).   

[Lost Farmboy]

Kent State?

 
 
 I didn't know a majority of our military and LEO's were at Kent State     

 
Where have I stated this?

[Casull]

Where have I stated this?

 
 
It's pretty much implied when Greybeard's post spoke about a "majority", my response to his post used the word "majority" three times in two lines and you were responding to my post.  Or did I somehow misinterpret that?     

[Nuke41]

I'm more of a realist. I firmly believe that rat now today the majority of our military and LEO personnel would follow whatever order given them to murder US Citizens and would do so with no hesitation.

 
Well that is a shame.  Law enforcement agencies, the military and government in general are simply manned from the greater US population.  As such they admittedly have shoplifters, wife beaters, rapists, murderers, adulterers and people committing every other manner of illegal and deviant behavior.  With that acknowledgment made, those illegal and deviant behaviors in my experience are much lower than comparably sized civilian populations.  In general I have found LE and military folks to be altruistic and highly motivated to perform their law enforcement and national security duties to the best of their abilities. 

I don’t know what has shaken your faith in those that operate your government and defend your nation.  I would suggest you visit a local military base and local law enforcement organizations.  Stop by with some coffee and donuts and sit down and talk with them, get to know them and hear about their lives and jobs.  If you would do that I’m sure you would come away with a totally new opinion about LE, military and government employees.

 

[Nuke41]

A psycho cabal of People that think like this are capable of anything believing the means justify the ends and that there's too many people in the world anyway.. Your governmnet has been occupied by outsiders who are little more than psychopathic, or in advance narcissism syndrome. Want to see how people can kill, deceive, push around, and terrorize others?....than read your OT war manual. The problem with the Cabal you identify, or are employed, is they don't realize the Ages are changing......
 
...TM7

You’re dodging the issue that you brought up by suggesting the government’s ability to perpetrate huge conspiracies and then keep them secret; specificity in how the government mans and conducts these highly complex conspiracies you espouse with a huge cadre of sociopaths?  9/11 would have involved hundreds, probably thousands, of people at all levels of law enforcement, the military, air traffic control, immigration and customs, major government agencies, Congress and the Executive branch.

Since nobody reported large scale personnel swap outs in those areas before or after 9/11 what is your explanation?  Is the military, LE and the government writ large manned completely by sociopaths willing to commit mass murder at a moment’s notice, and then keep those secrets to the death?

 

[Nuke41]

The history of the United States is basically a rich force against citizens....and commonly physical force and extreme violence; from the second American Revolution , to the Civil War, to the Bonus Arm raid, various union raids, Prohibiton, Ruby Ridge, Indian genocide, pearl harbour, The Maine, Lusitania, Kent State, Waco, OWSt, 'experimentation' on the general population, and so on and so forthTM7

Putting all those fringe conspiracy theories in your list doesn’t do anything to further your argument.

[BUGEYE]

nuke41, thanks for some well thought-out responses.  I think the vast majority of americans would balk at all the things TM7 alludes to.  the government could shoot me before I would murder 100s of cittizens.

[Singleshotsam]

I side with GB so far.  I've seen to many times in my own working career where a group of guys will say they are all behind one person to go up and demand a change, or file a complaint and when the rubber meets the road you see one guy standing by his lonesome in front of the boss and the group of guys that say they back him are back at their work stations denying they had any part in it.

My point is that if the government makes the play, "Jobs are hard to find and you have a job with the government.  If you want to keep you decent paying job and maintain your level of comfort of living w/ your family, then you'll shut up and do this."  That alone will make people think about doing a lot.

I'm half convinced already that there are several people on this forum that would openly accept a barcode tatoo if the government said it had to be done.  Or a microchip ... ect... ect.  I have no faith in my fellow man anymore. 

[Casull]

I have no faith in my fellow man anymore.

 
 
So, does that mean that you have no faith in yourself?  Or, are you the only honorable man left? 

[Singleshotsam]

So, does that mean that you have no faith in yourself?  Or, are you the only honorable man left? 

I'm not going to answer that for two reasons.

1:  Your just trying to bait me. 
2:  The way you phrased the question really has nothing to do w/ the OP's topic and a lot to do with your opinion of me.  If you have a problem w/ me just send me a PM and get it off your chest son.
 
My post was directed at the mentality behind the people that work these types of secret government projects and just how people in general won't stand up for things they would put other people up to.  When the rubber meets the road, the majority of people will do what their boss tells them to because they are comfortable in their living arrangements and afraid to rock the boat for fear of losing their livelyhood. 

[Casull]

1:  Your just trying to bait me. 
2:  The way you phrased the question really has nothing to do w/ the OP's topic and a lot to do with your opinion of me.  If you have a problem w/ me just send me a PM and get it off your chest son.

 
 
1.  I wasn't trying to bait you, just trying to make you think.
2.  I told you before, don't call me son.  Ok, kid?  As to the way I phrased my question, it has everything to do with the OP's topic and nothing to do with my opinion of you.  If you don't believe that, look at my response to Greybeard.  I have respect for him, but basically asked him the same question.  Sorry if you can't understand that.  What I'm trying to figure out is how some can believe that everyone else will do something horrible, if they, themselves, will not.  Again, that is not an attack, but a means of getting some to think about it.

[Singleshotsam]

My original post should be more than adequate to satisfy your questions as to why I don't trust other people.

[Nuke41]

"Jobs are hard to find and you have a job with the government.  If you want to keep you decent paying job and maintain your level of comfort of living w/ your family, then you'll shut up and do this."

 
You actually believe that?  Any adult that’s held a job longer than 10 minutes has had to do something distasteful or something they didn’t agree with in order to keep their job; but wholesale mass murder of US citizens?

How do you envision that going down? 

“Fred, times are tough these days and you know you’re lucky to have this air traffic control job.  We’re going to fly 3 civilian passenger jets into the WTC and the Pentagon this morning; we need you to look the other way as we fly them out of a nearby air force base.  I know you might be a little disturbed by the deaths of several thousand American citizens, but if you want to keep that job of yours you are going to have to keep this a secret the rest of your life”.

“OK Sam, that kind of sucks, but my kid needs braces and I have a mortgage to pay, I’ll do it”.

You think it went down something like that?

[BUGEYE]

"Jobs are hard to find and you have a job with the government.  If you want to keep you decent paying job and maintain your level of comfort of living w/ your family, then you'll shut up and do this."

 
You actually believe that?  Any adult that’s held a job longer than 10 minutes has had to do something distasteful or something they didn’t agree with in order to keep their job; but wholesale mass murder of US citizens?

How do you envision that going down? 

“Fred, times are tough these days and you know you’re lucky to have this air traffic control job.  We’re going to fly 3 civilian passenger jets into the WTC and the Pentagon this morning; we need you to look the other way as we fly them out of a nearby air force base.  I know you might be a little disturbed by the deaths of several thousand American citizens, but if you want to keep that job of yours you are going to have to keep this a secret the rest of your life”.

“OK Sam, that kind of sucks, but my kid needs braces and I have a mortgage to pay, I’ll do it”.

You think it went down something like that?

don't you just love conspiracy folks.

[Singleshotsam]

"Jobs are hard to find and you have a job with the government.  If you want to keep you decent paying job and maintain your level of comfort of living w/ your family, then you'll shut up and do this."

 
You actually believe that?  Any adult that’s held a job longer than 10 minutes has had to do something distasteful or something they didn’t agree with in order to keep their job; but wholesale mass murder of US citizens?

How do you envision that going down? 

“Fred, times are tough these days and you know you’re lucky to have this air traffic control job.  We’re going to fly 3 civilian passenger jets into the WTC and the Pentagon this morning; we need you to look the other way as we fly them out of a nearby air force base.  I know you might be a little disturbed by the deaths of several thousand American citizens, but if you want to keep that job of yours you are going to have to keep this a secret the rest of your life”.

“OK Sam, that kind of sucks, but my kid needs braces and I have a mortgage to pay, I’ll do it”.

You think it went down something like that?

Well when you put it like that... 

 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

I have worked on jobs where industrial secrets were at stake. There were very few people involved that knew what the end product would be. The work was done in phases and you only got plans for your part. Often you would run a pipe up to a wall of black plastic cut a hole only large enough to let the pipe pass thru. the noted measurement . And no looking thru the hole you cut showed nothing as the space was small dark and another wall of plastic blocked view.
 So listing 1000's may not be the whole story as many may have had no clue what they were doing at times .

[Singleshotsam]

Shootall, excellent point.

Let me ask you a question.
 
Would it be feasable to apply that same logic to say, a conspiracy? 

[SHOOTALL]

Oh fer sure , a few spout some BS and 1000's repete it not having a clue as to its truthfulness , just an effort on most peoples part to tell something and get that second or two of fame.

[BUGEYE]

no hijack code due to the fact that they turned off the transponders.  in the excitement of the first few seconds, the crews didn't do as they could.  your brain waits a moment to see whats going on before it reacts.  and the crews don't practice violent cockpit entries by terrorists.

[BUGEYE]

sitting in a classroom and being told what to do is not the same as sitting in a cockpit and learning that your flight attendants are being slaughtered or having someone crash thru the door.
it's no different than combat.  at first your brain says HUH, whats going on?
if you live thru the first encounter, you'll react different the second time.

but since you seem to be a combat verteran/airline pilot I'll defer to your expertize.

[BUGEYE]

sitting in a classroom and being told what to do is not the same as sitting in a cockpit and learning that your flight attendants are being slaughtered or having someone crash thru the door.
it's no different than combat.  at first your brain says HUH, whats going on?
if you live thru the first encounter, you'll react different the second time.

but since you seem to be a combat verteran/airline pilot I'll defer to your expertize.

I see!...no hyjack codes on 4 planes in one day!. Confounding since other hyjackings have had codes punched..my undertanding is it takes 0.5 seconds to punch in code.....it is automatic due to training and could save your life, any professional would get these codes out. Any mil defense in the world would fly at supersonic speed to an airliner that shut down their transponders
..TM7

I wasn't gonna respond to any more nonsense but that's really absurd.
if a pilot turns off the transponder for any reason, it does not trigger the airforce to send fighters.
equipment will trip breakers, equipment will malfunction, the pilot can turn one off and another on.
when it's off, it only hides the altitude.  if we scrambled fighters every time a transponder was turned off, the air would be slam full of fighters.

[BUGEYE]

you said any mil. defense in the world flies at supersonic speed when a transponder is turned off.

THAT'S ABSURD.  I guess one of your fake pilots told you that.  a few weeks ago, I sent a friend to look at the conspiracy forum here and he e-mailed later that it was rather infantile there.

[BUGEYE]

TM7, go back and read your post #33.  you said if a transponder is turned off the mil. would fly supersonic to that airplane. nonsense.  you put out so many tidbits of dis-info you can't remember what you wrote. so you try to overwhelm everyone with 100 more lines of bull.
It's starting to get comical.