1000's involved with Cold War Secret...no leaks...

[Casull]

Yep.
 
 
 

Any mil defense in the world would fly at supersonic speed to an airliner that shut down their transponders/quote]
 
 

you said any mil. defense in the world flies at supersonic speed when a transponder is turned off.

 

No.... that's not what I wrote.

 
 
 

[Nuke41]

I have worked on jobs where industrial secrets were at stake. There were very few people involved that knew what the end product would be. The work was done in phases and you only got plans for your part....So listing 1000's may not be the whole story as many may have had no clue what they were doing at times .

Compartmentalization of is good operational security and is standard practice in government and industry for classified projects.  I had partial and full read-on for several SCI projects and operations over the years, what always amazed me was when they were over and you often got to know the full scope it was very common for those with partial read-on’s to have much greater insight into what was really going on than they were told; they inferred it or figured it out their own based on their experience.

The question is how could you break down tasks to support the supposed 9/11 conspiracy that would leave the unwitting perpetrator without even the slightest doubt about having contributed even in the smallest sense to the crime of the century.  I think any major tasks would have been a dead giveaway and anyone involved with anything to do with the Pentagon, WTC buildings or the planes used in the 9/11 attacks would have been doing allot of soul searching to think about anything odd they had done before the attacks.

[Nuke41]

 
Nice try at minimizing with usual conspiracy charge for a credibility attack, but I'm afraid those examples aren't conspiracies....but quite proven and admitted self-inflicted attacks on Americans or attacks based on false premises....and that's the name of the game in warfare...Read Sun Tsu rule #1, read the motto of mossad.....read Victor Ostrovsky. Quit trying to pull wool over reader's eyes.
Want to look at Oklahoma City bombing for example.....? How about Lavon Affair--Operation Suzannah, Maybe Gulf of Tonkin, USS Pueblo, Kuwait Gulf War 1,,,,,, your choice.
 
..TM7

 
 
Since you keep on listing conspiracies that aren’t accepted by 99.9% of the public or historians as true “historical events”, let me ask it another way.
 

 
Are there any significant historical events over the last 200 years that you accept as having occurred as written in the history books and that you feel aren’t products of some conspiracy?
 

 

 

[Nuke41]

The history of the United States is basically a rich force against citizens....and commonly physical force and extreme violence; from the second American Revolution , to the Civil War, to the Bonus Arm raid, various union raids, Prohibiton, Ruby Ridge, Indian genocide, pearl harbour, The Maine, Lusitania, Kent State, Waco, OWSt, 'experimentation' on the general population, and so on and so forthTM7

Putting all those fringe conspiracy theories in your list doesn’t do anything to further your argument.

.
Nice try at minimizing with usual conspiracy charge for a credibility attack, but I'm afraid those examples aren't conspiracies....but quite proven and admitted self-inflicted attacks on Americans or attacks based on false premises....and that's the name of the game in warfare...Read Sun Tsu rule #1, read the motto of mossad.....read Victor Ostrovsky. Quit trying to pull wool over reader's eyes.
Want to look at Oklahoma City bombing for example.....? How about Lavon Affair--Operation Suzannah, Maybe Gulf of Tonkin, USS Pueblo, Kuwait Gulf War 1,,,,,, your choice.
 
..TM7

 
Since you keep on listing conspiracies that aren’t accepted by 99.9% of the public or historians as true “historical events”, let me ask it another way.
 

 
Are there any significant historical events that have occurred in the last 200 years that you accept as having occurred as written in the history books and that you feel aren’t products of some conspiracy?
 

 

 

[Nuke41]

you said any mil. defense in the world flies at supersonic speed when a transponder is turned off.

THAT'S ABSURD.  I guess one of your fake pilots told you that.  a few weeks ago, I sent a friend to look at the conspiracy forum here and he e-mailed later that it was rather infantile there.

Agreed, whatever TM7 does for a living, it doesnt have to do anything with aviation.

[jlwilliams]

  The Manhattan project is a poor example of keeping a secret.  The Russians were given the bomb  by scientists who thought that a world with one nuclear armed nation was less stable than a world with two.  Maybe they thought it was unfair.  Whatever.  Point is they not only leaked it, they gift wrapped and delivered it.
 
  I have to agree with Graybeard.  Wish to hell I could argue with you on this, but I can't.  There are way, way too many in our government's employ who would pull the trigger on Americans if ordered to.  Label an American a 'terrorist' and you can lock them up forever or send a cruise missile down their chimney and no one will hesitate for one minute.
 
  Nuke41 in fact points out why that's true, even while arguing that it isn't.  He points out that the military and law enforcement are taken from a cross section of our society.  Our society has had it's moral compass removed and will follow the Word of The State.
 
  A quick case in point.  Over the weekend I was at a gun shop.  We were handling some new and old guns (myself, the owner and a few other customers.)  There was a gun with a decocker and the subject of not trusting decockers was mentioned.  I told about footage I saw lest year of a cop accidentally shooting a cuffed person on the ground when she used the decock.  She was covering the guy while another cop cuffed him.  The cuffs were on, she went to decock and re-holster, and shot the guy.  One of the customers in the shop said "he probably deserved it anyway.  If they were cuffing him he was guilty anyway"  I wasn't sure at first if he was serious, but he was.  A regular guy like any you see day to day figures that anybody being cuffed might as well be shot.
 
  Yes.  The state can kill you and no one cares.

[BUGEYE]

I think the majority of folks are too good to sell their souls for uncle sam.

[Nuke41]

 

In fact, in a moment of lucidity YOU even admitted to being involved with numerous black-ops or various deceptive or secreted operations. (please look up the definition of 'conspiracy' at this point) As well as being impressed with the 1000's that kept a Cold War' operation secreted for decades...so what's up with Agent Nuke..?? Do you think so-called 'conspiracies' or secret operations happen or not...including the ones you claimed having a hand in??

Now to answer your question to me;;; I believe all the major events of history, the big stuff, are very well planned and that random chance happenings are pretty much minimized......an wars are planned well in advance.....(as mossad proudly claims.)
 
TM7

 
The fact that the US keeps secrets for purposes of national security isn’t a secret, neither is the fact that they use disinformation and other OPSEC methods to maintain those secrets.  The Air Force probably used the “swamp gas” argument to hide many black aircraft programs from public disclosure, yet keeping those assets unknown is in our national security interest.  Just because something is secret doesn’t mean its nefarious or runs counter to US national interests. 

The difference between state secrecy and what you propose every day on this forum is huge; you spout as the gospel these shadowy, unsubstantiated and unaccepted theories that all major world events have been and continue to be engineered by a covert group, organization or cabal, and that these secret plots are largely unknown to the masses.  I think Mark Twain said it best; “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.”

And now after stating I’m retired military and still hold a security clearance as an employee of a government agency I find myself labeled as “Agent Nuke”, I guess in your mind I’m now a main player in the global cabal, running around the planet helping my overlords to engineer these nefarious schemes.
 

[Singleshotsam]

The difference between state secrecy and what you propose every day on this forum is huge; you spout as the gospel these shadowy, unsubstantiated and unaccepted theories that all major world events have been and continue to be engineered by a covert group, organization or cabal, and that these secret plots are largely unknown to the masses.  I think Mark Twain said it best; “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.”

 
Ok so what gets me is that when TM7 makes a post, 90% of the time he goes out of his way to post a link to the facts of his argument.  Heck 80% of the time he even posts the article for everyone to read!  Granted I don't always agree w/ TM7, but I don't see many people who argue against him putting up any facts what-so-ever.  As in your case Nuke41,  Most of your counter against TM7 has been a lot of puffed up opinions and a claim that you were once in "Black Ops" with very little links to the facts to back up your arguements.  in fact going over your last 20 post on record I see that all you ever do is conter with opinions and zero links to fact.

So the point i'm getting to is that if your going to spend 30 post arguing with TM7 over what he believes which he backs  up FREQUENTLY with facts, then why don't you start producing some facts of your own and provide links to them to make your argument sound legit instead of trying to convince us that you know how it works on the inside and we should take your word for gospel. 
 
 
 

[BUGEYE]

SSS, having spent most of my working life in the airline industry and being quite familiar with all types of commercial aircraft and familiar with most FAA  rules and regulations, I have disputed TM7s outrageous claims many times.  when he is faced with facts, he just burns up bandwidth with huge stories from one of his dis-info sites.  I have studied all the info and photos on 911 and the only conspiracy was the one among a group of terrorists.

[kinslayer1965]

Singleshotsam,
 
Please tell me you are kidding! I posted pages and pages and pages of information backing up my assertions and you somehow missed that???
 
Here are a few links for you to peruse if you wish.
 
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236036.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236037.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236061.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236039.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236064.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236063.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236062.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236065.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236083.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236088.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236084.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236087.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236085.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236038.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236825.0.html
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236092.0.html

[kinslayer1965]

TM7,
 
Just out of curiosity if what I did was "spamming" what does your "info" qualify as considering none of it is substantiated? The majority of your post come from "conspiracy sites" so what is the difference? When did MIT become a OCT site? "Drilled down into it"?? you brushed most of it off with your normal "seems like your typical disinfo" comments. Considering the questionable veracity of the majority of your info, your comment seems a bit like the pot calling the kettle black to me. "Logic gaps" please tell me you are kidding. You can't even decide which conspiracy theory you want to espouse. You appear to believe them all.
 
 
 
 

[BUGEYE]

SSS, having spent most of my working life in the airline industry and being quite familiar with all types of commercial aircraft and familiar with most FAA  rules and regulations, I have disputed TM7s outrageous claims many times.  when he is faced with facts, he just burns up bandwidth with huge stories from one of his dis-info sites.  I have studied all the info and photos on 911 and the only conspiracy was the one among a group of terrorists.

Bug...I don't believe you have ever posted a single article to support your opinions.....I don't know what level you worked in transportation, all I know is I'm psoting info from top eschelon..
~~~~~~~~~
 
 
Yes kinslayer...you spammed the forum with OCTheory support sites....we discussed alot of your stuff.....from my view and a few others...your 'official' info did not hold up when we drilled down on it...full of holes, logic gaps, disinfo, etc....imo.
 
..TM7

TM7, there's all kinds of info on 9-11 and the aircraft used in the attack.  all you have to do is look at the films and photos and it's obvious what happened.  I'm sorry that you have so little faith in your fellow Americans that you think they would murder thousands of people.

[Singleshotsam]

Kin, I posted MOST people dont' try to post links to facts.  I didn't say everybody didn't.  Kudos to you though.  I appreciate your efforts.

As far as life experience goes... You could just as easily say "I've worked 30 years in the aviation industry." and just because your the custodian at an airport doesn't mean you can fly a plane.  And no, I'm not saying that your a janitor.  Just making a point.  The people who have the most experience in a matter are those who should be able to post facts from industry websites the easiest.  Your statement on here isn't any basis for me to actually believe you've done anything if you can't produce any facts to back up your claims.

[BUGEYE]

Kin, I posted MOST people dont' try to post links to facts.  I didn't say everybody didn't.  Kudos to you though.  I appreciate your efforts.

As far as life experience goes... You could just as easily say "I've worked 30 years in the aviation industry." and just because your the custodian at an airport doesn't mean you can fly a plane.  And no, I'm not saying that your a janitor.  Just making a point.  The people who have the most experience in a matter are those who should be able to post facts from industry websites the easiest.  Your statement on here isn't any basis for me to actually believe you've done anything if you can't produce any facts to back up your claims.

yes, I can fly a plane.  everything I have posted is common knowledge in the industry.
so, why do you think that people can't disagree. it it okay as long as they don't disagree with you?
I only post what I know as fact. I don't rely on chicken-little sites.

[Singleshotsam]

Bug you can disagree with anybody until your lips turn blue and you pass out, but my point was that if you don't provide facts in your counter arguement for us to read then why should we believe anything you say?  I can post common knowledge comments to you all day about Warehouse Distribution but if you don't work in the industry it's gibberish.

Posting links to the facts your talking about is just good manners.
 

[BUGEYE]

Bug you can disagree with anybody until your lips turn blue and you pass out, but my point was that if you don't provide facts in your counter arguement for us to read then why should we believe anything you say?  I can post common knowledge comments to you all day about Warehouse Distribution but if you don't work in the industry it's gibberish.

Posting links to the facts your talking about is just good manners.

well, since you jumped in to defend TM7, I will say that he does not accept facts.  the times that I gave him a place to look, he just denies them and burns up a lot more bandwidth with gibberish from his dis-info sites as if the one who posts the most lines, wins.

[Nuke41]

Ok so what gets me is that when TM7 makes a post, 90% of the time he goes out of his way to post a link to the facts of his argument....As in your case Nuke41,  Most of your counter against TM7 has been a lot of puffed up opinions and a claim that you were once in "Black Ops" with very little links to the facts to back up your arguements.  in fact going over your last 20 post on record I see that all you ever do is conter with opinions and zero links to fact.

Right now you just come of as a right wing extremist.  And I don't use that term often.

I’ll save you the bandwidth:
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf
http://www.debunking911.com/
Is there really a need to refute TM7’s cut and paste “facts”?  All you need to create a conspiracy theory is an alternate explanation of an event or portion of an event, it doesn’t need to make sense, be very plausible, fit into context with the other aspects of the event or have any solid proof.  TM7 admitted he thinks all major world events are engineered by the shadowy cabal/conspiracy.  I don’t think anyone needs to find proof that he’s wrong, it’s up to him to find proof he’s right and so far the cut and paste things he posts here aren’t doing it.

Conspiracy theories and theorists always have the same things in common:

- Poor pattern recognition capabilities: they see patterns where they don’t exist.  They then proclaim that hidden patterns of events exist, but can never explain them in any fashion that makes sense to the rest of us.
 
- The cabal is behind everything: but then again nobody is sure what that is or to what purpose it serves.  If they initiated events like WWII I’m not sure what they wanted out of it, or how they thought they could control the final outcome once the ball was rolling on the world stage.
 
- Almost anything can have more than a single meaning or explanation: just because something could have occurred or been physically possible doesn’t make it the likely explanation without further study or proof.  Only possibilities that support the conspiracy are accepted, alternatives that don’t support it are rejected out of hand.
 
- Pieces can make the whole:  unlike the poor 9/11 Commission that had to do their best to establish the chain of events on 9/11, conspiracy theorists can attack an entire narrative by espousing single pieces of an incident with alternate possibilities.  The 9/11 “truther” movement is made up of a patchwork of disjointed, highly unlikely and very often mutually exclusive “facts”.  There is no need to establish a semi-plausible alternate narrative for what happened on 9/11, if you identify any piece with an alternate explanation (regardless of how ridiculous)  that’s all the proof you need that the cabal was behind the entire thing.
 
- The cabal/conspirators are God like:  they can move through history while engineering all the major world events (according to TM7).  To what ends the conspiracy theorists can’t exactly say, but they are behind everything.  They have the full cooperation of or are members of all major world governments and can engineer the most complex events and create alternate explanations for the masses.
 
- The cabal/conspirators are idiots:  at the same time they perform their God like conspiracies, they seem to really screw some things up and leave their fingerprints all over things, for the conspiracy theorists to find.
 
- Proof is highly optional: someone’s word is more than good enough for conspiracy theorists, as long as it supports their theory.  Having been an unwitting pawn of the conspiracy or discovered it is fine, don’t bother saving anything that could verify your story and give it credibility later on, that’s not needed.  And that disgruntled worker background where you were terminated for cause, where you detected the conspiracy, that’s not relevant either.
 
- Proof later on that doesn’t support the conspiracy isn’t relevant: I got the biggest kick last week on a blog about selling Apollo memorabilia when the conspiracy theorists came out of the wood work claiming the moon landings were all faked.  I thought that was solved by those pictures taken by lunar orbiting satellites that clearly showed the Apollo landing sites and the tracks made by the rovers.  The moon landing “thuthers” will clearly believe the Apollo landings were faked to their dying days.
 
- Professionals in relevant areas are all part of the cabal:  that must be the case, since after 9/11 there wasn’t a ground swell of interest in the communities that could have attacked the established narrative of 9/11.  There was no rush to publish peer reviewed articles from the aviation, security, engineering or telecommunications industries to say that the 9/11 Commission had it wrong, that it couldn’t have happened that way.  Alternately, those poor oppressed experts in those areas that support the conspiracy theorists don’t feel compelled to produce academic works with peer review to support their claims, just slapping some accusation anywhere on the Internet to be cut and pasted is fine.
 
- The Jews: I haven’t seen anyone claim you have to be Jewish to be a part of cabal, but you must get extra points if you are.  For such a small group of people they unfortunately always seem to attract such negative publicity.  And I’m not Jewish by the way.


 

[Casull]

Well said, Nuke41.

[BUGEYE]

nuke41 said

- The cabal/conspirators are idiots:  at the same time they perform their God like conspiracies, they seem to really screw some things up and leave their fingerprints all over things, for the conspiracy theorists to find.

when I read that, I laughed till I was sick.

[kinslayer1965]

Very nice! Thanks Nuke!

[Casull]

I know tm burnt up a lot of bandwidth with that last post, but I failed to see any "facts".  A lot of opinion and theory, but no facts.  Perhaps singleshotsam will disagree with my take on it.  After all, there are a lot of "lines" there.  Maybe, by being posted on another site, they become facts.  Don't know.

[Nuke41]

At least when I post something here I write it myself, I dont run to the internet and then cut and paste.

[BUGEYE]

and, if I give an opinion, I preface it with "IMO"  the rest of what I say about aircraft is fact.
I've been there, done that.

[Singleshotsam]

well, since you jumped in to defend TM7, I will say that he does not accept facts.  the times that I gave him a place to look, he just denies them and burns up a lot more bandwidth with gibberish from his dis-info sites as if the one who posts the most lines, wins.

   Bugeye,

most of the time when I defend somebody on this site, it has little to do with if a agree 100% with what that person has posted and a lot to do with keeping the mob mentality that appears on this site from time to time at bay.

If TM7 chooses to not accept your facts then that's on him.  I'm choosing to not accept your claims because you want me to accept your word as fact.  Sorry but that doesn't fly in my book.  If you want me to take your words as credible then post me a link to some facts so I can learn more about what your talking about.  While a lot of people on this site are completely closed minded on things, I am not.  I can accept the fact that there is a whole lot being discussed on this forum that goes over my head because I have no knowledge of it.  That doesn't mean that I want to remain ignorant about what your posting.  Give me a website, or a link to an article or video so i can better understand what were talking about and we can have a more informative discussion.  Who knows, in the end I might side with your views.

[Singleshotsam]

 

I know tm burnt up a lot of bandwidth with that last post, but I failed to see any "facts".  A lot of opinion and theory, but no facts.  Perhaps singleshotsam will disagree with my take on it.  After all, there are a lot of "lines" there.  Maybe, by being posted on another site, they become facts.  Don't know.

   

First of all, GBO has plenty of bandwidth available (GB and Matt see to that.)  The site responds quickly.  So knock off on the stupid bandwidth comments already.     As far as what he posted in the last one.  I dont' always consider the stuff he posts up as fact, but at least TM7 goes the extra mile to provide relevance to his posts.  Like I said earlier Casull, there are way to many people on this forum that want me to accept their word as gospel in the matter.  Sorry but this is the Internet.  And the internet is full of trollololz.

In the end, TM7 is a person who challenges what you believe and likes to make people think and defend their claims.  What does that hurt?  If we all sat around patting each other on the backs about how smart we are this would be a boring site.

[BUGEYE]

SSS, don't come by the coffee shop when a bunch of us are solving the worlds problems
I don't think you would fit in.

[Singleshotsam]

SSS, don't come by the coffee shop when a bunch of us are solving the worlds problems
I don't think you would fit in.

Lol, I guess I get it from my Dad.  He goes into the coffee shop just long enough to agitate the farmers and then leaves lol.   

[Nuke41]

Is there a single peer reviewed professional paper or journal article on an alternate explanation to any aspect of the events of 9/11?

[Casull]

Lol, I guess I get it from my Dad.  He goes into the coffee shop just long enough to agitate the farmers and then leaves lol.

 
 
Sounds like the definition of a troll.