Remember the days before premium bullets

[Swampman]

I can't imagine wasting my time weighing bullets.

[jlwilliams]

I can't imagine wasting my time weighing bullets.

  I'll get to it as soon as I've ironed my socks.

[mcwoodduck]

I can't imagine wasting my time weighing bullets.

  I'll get to it as soon as I've ironed my socks.

OK, there are a few long range shooters that weigh bullets for longer distance the same as they check the water volume of each case and weight each powder charge.  The more consistant the loaded ammo is the more consistant your speed and over distance, same speed equals accuracy.  That is they they have a standard divation on your chrono. 
If you are  only shooting 200 yards or less a couple grains here or there are not going to make a big difference especally when hunting.

[Cheesehead]

I started my reloading hobby using Ballistic tip because the point was durable and would not get mashed from several chamberings in the course of a deer season. After that, Bronze points for the same reason. After that I tried Corelokts since they seemed to have somewhat of a protected point. Now I buy the Corelokt bullets in the 1000 packs for a few cartridges, and it makes load development easier with a large amount of identical bullets. Also the economics of bulk buying are there. Same with .429 bullets, I go with Remington bulk. After that it is all cast bullets, home made. So I agree with Swampman, Corelokts and cast.....

Cheese

[bilmac]

The bullets with plastic or bronze on the point are nice to keep the damage from the magazine down, but they open too quickly when they impact. Corelokts have that little bit of a meplat that minimizes the magazine damage, but they give up a little ballistic coeficient because of it.

I doubt that most of us are good enough shots to worry about the tiny bit of difference in trajectory between a corelokt and a pointy bullet. On the other hand seldom do the pointy ones get beat up in the magazine when you are actually hunting. For a lot of folks hunting season is one or two shots per season. I shoot several critters a year, but the bullets are loaded and unloaded and if I see some that are getting beat up they get replaced and used for target practice.

[charles p]

I agree with Swampman.  I had several bullet failures when the first Nosler BT bullets were introduced.  Penetration was a problem when velocity was high and range was short.  They were the most accurate bullets on paper that I ever shot, but far from the most effective on deer at short yardage.
I shoot a lot of doe deer for meat.  About once per year I get the opportunity to line two deer up for a "double kill".  I've done this a dozen times without failure.  CoreLokts and Interlock bullets work every time.  My last successful attempt was with a new Barnes copper bullet.  It was a double head shot.  It worked perfectly but was not much of a test of bullet performance.  I prefer double neck shots with bonded lead bullets.

[sidewinder319]

The early Nosler products would not expand well at ranges beyond 250 yds.  I have seen Elk and Moose hit with those bullets with no effect.  The bullets would drill thru and the animal would not flinch. The hunter would have to hit a bone to complete the harvest.  The old Hornady bullets in my .338 always did the job and still do.

[sr sawyer]

CW,s. comments make a lot of sence.  My favorite loads of all time are the Sierra .277 spitzer BT in the .270 Win and the .308 Hornady RN in the .30-30.
 
My son and myself have taken "many" whitetails and wild hogs ranging in weight from 100 to 250 pounds, all one shot kills on these animals, with the Sierra .277 130 grain spitzer boat tail bullet.
Ninety percent of these were dead right there and the balance did not travel over 40 yards.
 
The Nosler partition was considered a premium bullet back when my two boys were growing up in the early to mid 90's.  Although the .243 Win is not my recommended caliber for whitetails that is about all a nine year old can accurately handle.  We used the Nosler .243 100 grain partitions on a lot of deer and never had a pass thru.  One  deer weighed 195 pounds and traveled only 50 yards before going down but some of the others were a lot harder to track without a good blood trail.
 
My point is, a better .243 bullet would have really gotten my interest back in the 90's.  Right now, since my boys have progressed to bigger calibers, unless I leave MS to hunt larger game the older bullets that have proven to be reliable for over 40 years suit me just fine. 
 
Also the bronze tips and silver tips were available in the 70.s in factory loadings.  Not sure if they were available as components.
 
Ken
 
 

[Drilling Man]

The early Nosler products would not expand well at ranges beyond 250 yds.  I have seen Elk and Moose hit with those bullets with no effect.  The bullets would drill thru and the animal would not flinch. The hunter would have to hit a bone to complete the harvest.  The old Hornady bullets in my .338 always did the job and still do.

  What do you call early???  I had my first box of Noslers in my hand by 1970 and they worked perfectly....
 
  One big reason i went to NP's is because of Hornady bullets comeing apart on whitetails.  I wanted more penetration, and i soon learned that NP's out performed any bullet i had ever used.
 
  BTW, i've been useing .338 NP's since the late 70's.
 
  DM

[Drilling Man]

The Nosler partition was considered a premium bullet back when my two boys were growing up in the early to mid 90's.  Although the .243 Win is not my recommended caliber for whitetails that is about all a nine year old can accurately handle.  We used the Nosler .243 100 grain partitions on a lot of deer and never had a pass thru.  One  deer weighed 195 pounds and traveled only 50 yards before going down but some of the others were a lot harder to track without a good blood trail.
 
My point is, a better .243 bullet would have really gotten my interest back in the 90's.  Right now, since my boys have progressed to bigger calibers, unless I leave MS to hunt larger game the older bullets that have proven to be reliable for over 40 years suit me just fine. 
Ken

  I shot two whitetails this fall with 100NP's, and both of them expanded well and were pass throughs...  As far as i'm concerned, they worked perfectly...  Here's one of them, you can see where the bullet exited,
 

 
  DM

[jlchucker]

I prefer Remington Core-Lokts and cast lead bullets over everything else.  I don't have money to waste.

 


Same here, only I have a bigger stash than I really need of the old Winchester 170 gr Silvertips, and Winchester 180 grain Powerpoints, bought when they were still available and on sale.  For the most part, though, Corelocts and cast boolits somehow still work for me.  I stopped reading gun magazine several years ago, and must be the same animals that I hunt did too because they've never come back to life so far.     

[Rock Home Isle]

I can't imagine wasting my time weighing bullets.

  I'll get to it as soon as I've ironed my socks.

OK, there are a few long range shooters that weigh bullets for longer distance the same as they check the water volume of each case and weight each powder charge.  The more consistant the loaded ammo is the more consistant your speed and over distance, same speed equals accuracy.  That is they they have a standard divation on your chrono. 
If you are  only shooting 200 yards or less a couple grains here or there are not going to make a big difference especally when hunting.

I've dropped coyotes at ~700 with my .308...At that distance, taking the few extra steps produces a measurable difference. 

[bilmac]

A buddy of mine shot two deer with a 243 using partitions one year. One was at muzzle velocity range, and the bullet exploded, no exit wound. The other was at extreme long range, he thought about 400 yds,  It did not open at all, he said it made a pencil hole. 

[Swampman]

 
I've dropped coyotes at ~700 with my .308...At that distance, taking the few extra steps produces a measurable difference. 

Really, it doesn't....

[huntswithdogs]

Marketing has a lot to do with what many think is "needed" these days. The more that something is pushed to the forefront the "better" it becomes particularly if some yahoo on some hunting show or some so-and-so writer is invited to hunt with the manufacturer and see the results of XYZ product. It isn't just about bullets it's everything.

Do I use premiums...No. I found out years ago that as long as I do my part, I'm bringing home the meat.  I don't go on high dollar hunts for elk, moose or large bear. I've owned my main rifle for over 30 yrs and I have an idea what it and I can do together. My rifle is at the range multiple times during the year, so I shoot a lot. My Remingtons do just fine for me. Over the years I've owned a bunch of different rifles, all got fed non premiums, at the range and in the field. All brought home the meat  without having the extra expense.

HWD
 

[mcwoodduck]

 
I've dropped coyotes at ~700 with my .308...At that distance, taking the few extra steps produces a measurable difference. 

Really, it doesn't....

Acouple of times when buying bulk ammo, I found a different bullet in the box.
There was a 255 grain in a box of 230 grain 45"s  Ya thjink that 255 HP would have flown a little different?

[beerbelly]

I load everything from .243 to my 3006 for my M1 garand with hornady sp and they have killed a lot of deer , hogs and coyote's with no problem. The sad part is most were not killed by me!

[AtlLaw]

I've gone full circle for the most part.  Started handloading with whatever cup&core I could get.  The got on the "Premium" kick and wouldn't shoot "bulk" bullets unless I had no choice.
 
Now I use core lokts almost exclusively.
 
Got to admit though, if I were going on a guided moose hunt for example, I would problably load up some Nosler Partitions for my 338/06 or 35 Whelen...     But I wouldn't worry about a core lokt if that was all I had!   
 
Which reminds me, did they discontinue the 25 cal. 120 gr. core lokt?

[sidewinder319]

I have moose and elk in my yard the year around.  The fellow who shoots eastern white tail at close range is OK. I said heavy game at ranges over 200 yards. On small light thin skinned deer and antelope at close range anything will work.

[jlwilliams]

The Nosler partition was considered a premium bullet back when my two boys were growing up in the early to mid 90's.  Although the .243 Win is not my recommended caliber for whitetails that is about all a nine year old can accurately handle.  We used the Nosler .243 100 grain partitions on a lot of deer and never had a pass thru.  One  deer weighed 195 pounds and traveled only 50 yards before going down but some of the others were a lot harder to track without a good blood trail.
 
My point is, a better .243 bullet would have really gotten my interest back in the 90's.  Right now, since my boys have progressed to bigger calibers, unless I leave MS to hunt larger game the older bullets that have proven to be reliable for over 40 years suit me just fine. 
Ken

  I shot two whitetails this fall with 100NP's, and both of them expanded well and were pass throughs...  As far as i'm concerned, they worked perfectly...  Here's one of them, you can see where the bullet exited,
 

 
  DM

  How did you know that would be a good place to hunt?   
 
  I once looked at buying a piece of property that had an old orchard.  There was almost as much deer poop as apples on the ground.  Old farm house and it needed a bunch of work.  The deal just didn't come together but it's a house my wife and I both mention every so often.  'The one that got away' kind of thing.  Anyway, it would have made my venison supply fairly consistant.  That's for sure.

[wncchester]

I'm 71, been reloading since 1965 and I don't remember when there were no premium bullets.  RWS had the "H" mantel's (forerunner to the partitions) and Fred Barne's made some great heavy jacketed big game bullets long before I started.
 
Bullets are tools, not magic.  Do a common sense match of the bullet to the game and expected impact velocity and few bullets will "fail" to do their job.   Dead is dead and not many of us will ever see any benefit at all from more costly bullets than the common cup and core types.  I still use bulk packed Core Lokts when I can obtain the accuracy I seek from a hunting rifle.

[charles p]

Only bullet I ever had to absolutely fail was a 140 gr. Nosler BT, but in fairness to them, they were just introduced and I'm convince the ones they make today are far better.  I recall shooting a deer at about 300 yds with a Rem 7 mag and when I skinned the deer, I could not find any sign of bullet entry or exit.  I took the hide out to a street light and held it up to the light and finally found a hole in it that corresponded to a neck shot.  Went back to the deer carcus and found a small bruised section of meat.  The empact must have caused spinal injury, because there was zero viisable tissue damage.
Next failure was with the same box of bullets, this time loaded in my 280.  Shot a buck head on in th brisket at less than 50 yards.  Tracked it 100 yards to a big ditch.  It jumped from the ditch and I shot it going away in the ham.  The deer went down but had its neck and shoulder up off the ground.  Shot it a third time in the neck.  Not one of the three 140 gr. ballistic tip 284 bullets did any more tissue damage than birdshot from a .410 would have.  All three bullets exploded on contact and did not penetrate at all.  Nothing to recover.  No exit.  First shot was a perfect shot and should have killed the buck DRT.
I do not have an axe to grind with Nosler or any premium bullet.  Their partition is a proven bullet if you can find a load that will group well.  The BT is by far the most accurate bullet I have ever loaded.  I've had good results with Barnes copper bullets.  I only hunt whitetails and I get the best results with CoreLokt type bullets.
I was in a fancy whitetail camp in ID a few years ago where every other hunter brought a magnum rifle and two brothers could hardly shoot a 15" group at the target range.  I had a lowly 7mm-08.  Guess who took the largest deer of the hunt and with a plain bullet at about 2500 fps.
 
 
 
 

[Swampman]

At one time men shot rifles that were big enough for the job at hand.  Now days they want to shoot the smallest caliber possible because ...It hurts   so they have to use expensive bullets to do the job.

[Dave in WV]

My take on bullets is they are all designed to work in a velocity envelope. Above or below that envelope and you usually get less than desired results. Cup and core bullets worked fine until the magnum craze started. Cup and core bullets were mostly designed for standard cartridges and usually the most common cartridge in that caliber. Nosler came out with the original BT's with longer range hunting in mind. Then came the rub. Reloaders/hunters found they were very accurate so they mostly loaded them for whitetail deer at ranges less than 100 yards. The end result was many times the bullets came apart (remember the long range thing?). The bullet companies listen to input from the consumers, not just gun writers. The BT's got tougher over the years. What was the poor man's premium bullet (corelockts in particular) was now too tough so Remington decided to thin the jackets when they retooled to save money and give the perfomance hunters wanted. That's a case of watch what you ask for. Now the complaint is corelokts aren't as tough as they once were.
 
For some reason many of us want a rifle to shoot bug size hole groups for ranges usually under 100 yards and the bullet to drop the game "DRT" with full penetration for one guy and  no full penetration for another.
 
The age old question is, "at what time during the animals demise did the bullet fail"? 

[Rock Home Isle]

Deer have such a sweet tooth...old apple orchards are great hunting locations.

[yooper77]

I use Hornady Interlock bullets for big game hunting, but I also use Speer and Sierra standard cup core bullets. Remington Core-Lokt are good, but Hornady Interlock are better, and have a lot attention to detail that Remington's seriously lack, just compare them and you will see.
 
When I choose a premium bullet it is and always will be the Nosler Partition.
 
I never considered the Nosler Ballistic Tip as a premium bullet, its just a soft point with a cool plastic tip and I only use them for varmints or targets.
 
Once I witnessed the old 100 grain Barnes X-Bullet failure to expand out of a 25-06 Remington on a doe Antelope, so no one can ever convince me on using any Barnes bullets.
 
yooper77

[Lloyd Smale]

last year i had 3 bad experiences with barnes tsx bullets and agree with yopper that they wouldnt go in my gun agaiin. They may be great at making a 243 or 25-06 into a slayer of elk but ive got better guns for that purpose. Ive killed more deer with nos bts and sierras then anything else and kill more deer a year then some do in there lifetime and ive yet to shoot a deer with a bt or sierra that i didnt put in the freezer. Id bet that about 9/10s of the complaints about excessive meat damage could be traced back to a poor shot and if ANY bullet would have hit there there would have been excessive damage. You want to see damage? . I shot 3 does with three shots about as fast as i could work the bolt with my 8mag using partitions. I loaded partitions because i thought with an overkill gun like that it wouldnt tear up a deer. I shot all of them standing together at about a 100 yards and hit everyone of them behind the shoulder and i could take any of the three and put my whole fist in the exit hole. I seriously doubt if a bt or sierra could possibly done any more damage then the partitions did. Bottom line is if you hit ANY deer in the shoulder with ANY high velocity bullet your not going to eat much shoulder meat. Thing i like about standard cup and core bullets is i can shoot them behind the shoulder and not mess up anything but ribs and still not have to chase wounded deer into the next county.

[sidewinder319]

You said it all.

[cjrjck]

The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources recently conducted a study of bullet fragmentation to determine the extent to which lead particles are deposited in big game shot with various bullets. The study is relevant to me since it is one of the most controlled experiments I have seen that will allow you to compare the terminal performance of several bullets. They used a sniper to shoot a number of live deer but the most controlled tests were on euthanized domestic sheep that were hung and shot broadside and bullets were recovered in the medium on the far side. Typical double lung shots. They were studying lead fragmentation and contamination but the conclusions speak for themselves. 10 sheep were shot with each bullet. On average, the Barnex TSX retained 96% of its original weight while the Remington Core-Lokt and Nosler BT retained 48% each. Exit hole diameters were nearly identical with the Barnes and Nosler tied for the best, and wound channels were similar with the Nosler bettering the Barnes and the Remington slightly behind the Barnes. All three bullets performed very similar in all categories with the exception of bullet weight retention and lead fragmentation/contamination. Weight retention is a factor that would no doubt be of more importance on shots that hit bone or angled into the kill zone since nearly all of the Nosler lead cores had separated from the jacket and the Remington had little lead remaining with the jackets.    I don't worry much about lead contamination in my venison from centerfire bullets but it is a growing concern in some areas. This study shows that typical cup and core bullets can spray lead in the carcasses sometimes over a foot away from the exit wound. That surprised me.

[Rock Home Isle]

The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources recently conducted a study of bullet fragmentation to determine the extent to which lead particles are deposited in big game shot with various bullets. The study is relevant to me since it is one of the most controlled experiments I have seen that will allow you to compare the terminal performance of several bullets. They used a sniper to shoot a number of live deer but the most controlled tests were on euthanized domestic sheep that were hung and shot broadside and bullets were recovered in the medium on the far side. Typical double lung shots. They were studying lead fragmentation and contamination but the conclusions speak for themselves. 10 sheep were shot with each bullet. On average, the Barnex TSX retained 96% of its original weight while the Remington Core-Lokt and Nosler BT retained 48% each. Exit hole diameters were nearly identical with the Barnes and Nosler tied for the best, and wound channels were similar with the Nosler bettering the Barnes and the Remington slightly behind the Barnes. All three bullets performed very similar in all categories with the exception of bullet weight retention and lead fragmentation/contamination. Weight retention is a factor that would no doubt be of more importance on shots that hit bone or angled into the kill zone since nearly all of the Nosler lead cores had separated from the jacket and the Remington had little lead remaining with the jackets.    I don't worry much about lead contamination in my venison from centerfire bullets but it is a growing concern in some areas. This study shows that typical cup and core bullets can spray lead in the carcasses sometimes over a foot away from the exit wound. That surprised me.

Excellent Post.