Remember the days before premium bullets

[yooper77]

The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources recently conducted a study of bullet fragmentation to determine the extent to which lead particles are deposited in big game shot with various bullets. The study is relevant to me since it is one of the most controlled experiments I have seen that will allow you to compare the terminal performance of several bullets. They used a sniper to shoot a number of live deer but the most controlled tests were on euthanized domestic sheep that were hung and shot broadside and bullets were recovered in the medium on the far side. Typical double lung shots. They were studying lead fragmentation and contamination but the conclusions speak for themselves. 10 sheep were shot with each bullet. On average, the Barnex TSX retained 96% of its original weight while the Remington Core-Lokt and Nosler BT retained 48% each. Exit hole diameters were nearly identical with the Barnes and Nosler tied for the best, and wound channels were similar with the Nosler bettering the Barnes and the Remington slightly behind the Barnes. All three bullets performed very similar in all categories with the exception of bullet weight retention and lead fragmentation/contamination. Weight retention is a factor that would no doubt be of more importance on shots that hit bone or angled into the kill zone since nearly all of the Nosler lead cores had separated from the jacket and the Remington had little lead remaining with the jackets.    I don't worry much about lead contamination in my venison from centerfire bullets but it is a growing concern in some areas. This study shows that typical cup and core bullets can spray lead in the carcasses sometimes over a foot away from the exit wound. That surprised me.

I don't believe using typical cup and core bullets can causes any lead spray and is a myth or urban legend that it contaminates meat.
 
http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/LeadIssues.aspx
 
Sounds like the Nosler and Remington bullets performed as designed.

yooper77

[bilmac]

I imagine that the lead was sprayed that far in lung tissue not the denser meat. I don't eat lungs.

[243dave]

I imagine I've ate a lot of lead especially #6 and 4 shot in rabbit,turkey and squirrel.  I don't worry much about eating lead as I've never had a problem with any elevated or abnormal blood work.  Where I take precautions is when casting lead bullets, lead vapors going directly to the lungs and into the blood stream can be very bad, I try to cast outside mostly but if I do it inside, the garage door will be open with a fan blowing out the door. If your digestive system could break down lead like it does venison I suppose I would be worried, the lead left inside a deer carcass isn't much of a concern but if I bite into a slug I'll be sure to spit it out and keep eat'n.  
Dave     

[Swampman]

There are no lead vapors at the heat ranges used in casting.  Dust and smoke from the crap on the lead might be an issue.  Eating solid lead particles isn't much of an issue either.  They just pass on true.

[cwlongshot]

There are no lead vapors at the heat ranges used in casting.  Dust and smoke from the crap on the lead might be an issue.  Eating solid lead particles isn't much of an issue either.  They just pass on true.

REALLY!!! Well I am relieved to hear that...

I have a question for you Swampy, You really need to cut a new stick to stir this pot, this one is getting old! 

I just spent 3 days renewing my lead paint renovation and repair license. (CFR40 Part 745.225)
What you just advised folks, could be extremely hazordous and detrimental the the overall health of anyone following that advice.

CW

[Rock Home Isle]

There are no lead vapors at the heat ranges used in casting.  Dust and smoke from the crap on the lead might be an issue.  Eating solid lead particles isn't much of an issue either.  They just pass on true.

OMG!!! Swampy Seriously?? This is an issue where your ignorance of the material could cause serious health issues for you. I'm hoping that you are just joking and being "Swampy" with this post...
 
The vapors that you see during casting do contain very low levels of lead (Pb)...And any lead that is ingested directly is acted upon by the digestive system. Once the lead is in your system...its yours...You own it...Its like Herpes, man and it does not go away. And over  time the concentration within your body increases with repeated exposures, that's called biological amplification. Once a person  reaches the thresh-hold concentrations within their body, they will suffer the effects of lead poisoning...
 
There are nucleating agents that can be used to reduce the concentration of Pb within a living system, but the drugs have serious side effects.
 
Lead poisoning is a very serious concern for shooters.
 

[Lloyd Smale]

first swampy is absolutely correct. Lead doesnt give off vapors untill its well over a 1000 degrees. At least 200 degrees higher then anyone casts. Now you might have a problem smelting lead in a non ventilated area as a turkey cooker can get it hot if you dont pay attention. Ive been treated 3 times for high lead levels. All were due to a few things. One is indoor range shooting with poor ventilation. I just dont do it anymore. If a match is indoors i dont participate. the rest of my problem came from sloppy casting practices. Smoking while casting even eating while casting. I know many guys who cast as much as me and believe me thats alot as usually my pots dont stay idle for anymore then 2 or 3 days at a time. Many never have a bit of problems and there lead levels remain lower then the average in this country. Also the big scare about consuming lead from game animals is nothing but an attack by the antis on our hunting. You could swallow 5 lead bullets and youd just poop them out the next day. Stumac acid cannot break down lead. If you got any exposure from consuming it it would again be lead dust and i doubt theres any on a blood covered bullet. They want to stop hunting alltogther and find small victorys in little things like banning lead shot and now lead bullets. It all comes down to them wanting to take away all your hunting and guns. To fall prey to there bs. Show me one documented case of lead poisoning that was caused by bullets and ill eat a couple myself. Swampy isnt allways right but before you jump down his throat you should educate yourself.

[Rock Home Isle]

first swampy is absolutely correct. ........... you should educate yourself.

No, He's Not.
 
I Have.
 
Seriously, Loyd, I think that someone needs to have a heart felt chat with you about some of your depths of knowledge. Ever since we had a disagreement of opinion about a calibre choice, you just seem to be agrivated more and more with anything that I post...No body "jumped" down anybody's throat, that is a mild exageration, cwlongshot and I merely pointed out an error in swampies statement...And its a serious error.
 
But this is not an opinion issue its a safety and a health issue...not opinion. Your anectdotal stories are nice and fun to read though....

[mcwoodduck]

first swampy is absolutely correct. ........... you should educate yourself.

No, He's Not.
 
I Have.
 
Seriously, Loyd, I think that someone needs to have a heart felt chat with you about some of your depths of knowledge. Ever since we had a disagreement of opinion about a calibre choice, you just seem to be agrivated more and more with anything that I post...
 
But this is not an opinion issue its a safety and a health issue...not opinion. Your anectdotal stories are nice and fun to read though....

Are you a doctor?
Some how I believe Loyd.  Having been poisoned, I am sure he looked into what casued his poisoning and what to do to eliminate future poisonings.
If he says that the vapor is harmfull I believe it.

[Rock Home Isle]

...........If he says that the vapor is harmfull I believe it.

??    Loyd is agreeing with Swampman in saying that the vapor from casting bullets does not contain any amount of lead and is therefore not harmful.
 
I'm trying to make the point that this vapor is harmful and that ingestion of lead is also harmful and best avoided. I can't  even believe that this would be an issue....much less an argument.
 
Am I really out of line here folks??? This is a health issue...Yes???

[Dixiejack]

I shoot whatever I can find on sale.  The game don't seem to notice the difference.

[mcwoodduck]

Sorry if I came across as snippy or condisending.
But I live in Ca and all too often we see things happening here based on what sounds likely not based on science.
We have to use non lead bullets to hunt in the area where the Condor is because someone thought the Condor was being piosoned by bullets left in gut piles.   Again thought to be in the gut piles of big game animalsleft by hunters.
We have Carbon taxes, based on Man made global warming because it sounds likely that CO2 is causing it.  But they reject solar activity. 
We have some politicians that have made a lead free water system, no proof that the water was unsafe, but it has added thousands to the cost of new projects and many common itels that were brass are no longer allowed.  Now we have many of those products as cast iron, hot stagnent water against cast iron causes legioonella bacteria to grow.  Far more serious than less than 3% lead content.
When I lived n Southern Ca I belonged to a club that had been shooting on a site for many years.  The owner had us do a study to see if the lead was leaching into a creek.  He wanted us to pay to clean it up.  We did the study and found out that once the lead oxidized it no longer leached and the creek 200 yards away was with in water quality standards.  A company came out to mine the lead and said 40,000.  We backed off and said we only have 20k in our account.  They said you misunderstood we will pay you 40 to take the lead.  The owner them wated the money and a small fight over the cash put the project on hold.
But the small shot size makes sense that it would roll and leach into the creek.  It does not. 
We shoot no lead at ducks because the 2 and 4 shot is the same size as the gravel they put in their gizzard to grind up their food.
The lead did not harm them but harmed the egg shells making them thin, the same argument they made with the Osprey and DDT.   But as far as I can see there are no studies done to prove the idea.  It was all done by consensus.  It made sence to people but was not proved.
Any arguments made about lead are going to have lead banned.  There is a trap range here in the bay area where they only shoot steel.  Four rounds of skeet cost over $100.  Not sure about you but I can barly afford the 40 for a round of sporting clays and ammo,  Making it 2.5X that based on no science is only going to kill the shooting sports.

[Rock Home Isle]

Hey mcwoodduck
 
I perfectly understand your position. The tactics of the antis disgust me, they take science and use it to their own ends. No harm no foul.
 
I hope that it gets better for you and the other fine sportsmen there in California.   

[keith44]

Hey RHI


I think Swampy's main point was the temp. of the melt.  If the melt is kept to just enough to keep the lead in a liquid state.  It is when the temp of the melt approaches the level that causes the metal to change to a gas form (give off vapors)


makes sense, but I still cast only with good ventilation.

[Dixiejack]

mcwoodduck,
What you talking about is another form of gun control.  Man, ya'll just about need to take a lawyer hunting with you. 

[Lloyd Smale]

Im sorry if i raised your hackles. To be honest i dont even remember arguing with you about anything. I post on here all the time and when i dont agree i say so and ive disagreed with many. Like i said i was treated 3 times for lead levels to high. I took the time to find out exactly what causes lead poisoning and what doesnt and lead doesnt give off harmful vapors at temps that a casting pot will run. I would guess that even the casting pot manufactures are aware of this and its why they limit the temps of them to below a 1000 degrees. As to it being a big health issue like everything else its way overblown. Lead levels in an adult under 30 arent harmful. In a child its a differnt matter as lead does more damage to a developing brain then it does to an adult. Im not saying stick your head over your pot or lick your lead bars im saying that in this day and age of scares about everything you need to sit back and take some of it with a grain of salt. If you listen to all the health experts unless your living on lettuce and bean sprouts and running 5 miles a day your going to die an agonizing death at a young age. Yes i came to swampys rescue. Why? because at first i tired of his posts and thought they were mostly bs but he calmed down alot and lately has made some decent contributions to this fourm and it seems like no matter what he posts someone is jumping down his throat and calling him a lier. Yes he is opinionated but then so am I. If he posts something that i think is totaly wrong id be the first to tell him so and have many times in the past. But its time to put the swampy bashing to rest and cut the guy some slack.

first swampy is absolutely correct. ........... you should educate yourself.

No, He's Not.
 
I Have.
 
Seriously, Loyd, I think that someone needs to have a heart felt chat with you about some of your depths of knowledge. Ever since we had a disagreement of opinion about a calibre choice, you just seem to be agrivated more and more with anything that I post...No body "jumped" down anybody's throat, that is a mild exageration, cwlongshot and I merely pointed out an error in swampies statement...And its a serious error.
 
But this is not an opinion issue its a safety and a health issue...not opinion. Your anectdotal stories are nice and fun to read though....

[Lloyd Smale]

http://www.house-painting-info.com/safe-lead-paint-removal.html#axzz1jcLqdQUl

[Lloyd Smale]

actually a bigger problem then casting for the average handloader is lead dust from your tumbler. best advice i can give the average man thats afraid of lead exposure is to wash his hands often. I keep handcleaner towels handy by my pots and by my presses and when i cast or handle lead bullets i make sure i clean my hands often, dont put my fingers in my mouth, dont eat or smoke or drink while handling lead. If you take just those precautions you will never need to see the doctor like i did. Also one last thing ill say on this is if you EVER have chlidren or pets around your house keep your casting and loading areas locked to them. There are many dangers for a child in a loading area and lead exposure is a big one. Kids and dogs tend to put about anything in there mouth. Use common sense and casting is as safe as any other loading job. By the way my lead level was as high as 89. I went through chelting theropy 3 times (mostly because i was to stupid to learn the first time) Its now at around 10 which is a safe level for an adult and hasnt changed in 5 years. I get my lead level checked every 6 months to be sure. the doctor also recomended that when i cast to drink a glass of milk or orange juice or take a vitaman C supplement ever day as they  have propertys which allow lead to pass out of your system naturaly. Now excuse me while i fry up some bacon and eggs for breakfast. I dont want to live forever you know!

[cwlongshot]

Ignorance is bliss .

No big suprise so many are not properly or even completely informed. ( I do not make such a claim either) It was not until a short time ago lead was being removed from all sorts of things. I myself was floored by where it was and how it effected people. That class really opened my eyes. The Feds are way serious about enforcing lead restrictions too serious substantial penalties are levied on a per instance violation. Puts substantial burden on guys like me, they tell me it will not raise the fees I charge. That's hogwash. Just the PP items and plastic to wrap everything is atleast 10-15% increase in costs I cannot eat so it will effect my even getting jobs when someone else not informed will quote the job at less and NOT even consider the consiquences. Where i to do the same and was caught, The fines to my would be more because I have the license.

I am not gonna sit here and paste quotes and spend any more time on the subject. Research it and make your own decisions. My last statement in responce to Swampys unedjucated responce stands. I realize many do not and will not understand. But I truly would not like to hear of anyone hurt by the passing of such dangerous information. As stated in another post new visitors will simply look at a post count and how long since a author regestered to give merit based solely on tenure.

So I come back to where I started, ignorance is bliss. We are all accountable to ourselves in the long run. Ignorance is a poor safety blanket.

I apologize for the off topic comments.

CW

Before anyone gets huffy, I am not calling names or saying anyone is stupid. Ignorance by definition is merely a lack of knowledge. Everyone is born ignorant what a person does to overcome that is what makes them. Knoledge is power, research or listen to those who know and learn.

[Rock Home Isle]

Im sorry if i raised your hackles. To be honest i dont even remember arguing with you about anything. I post on here all the time and when i dont agree i say so and ive disagreed with many.

Hey Loyd,
 
It's all good. I'm the same way...I'm NOT very pollitically correct and I say what I know to be true. We seem to be cut from the same cloth.
 
Looks like you and I were saying the same thing but from a different point of view. 

[Rock Home Isle]

When I graduated from college, I worked for 9 years as an analytical chemist and a laboratory supervisor. As only a part of my work as a chemist, I did Environmental Compliance Monitoring, I conducted NDPDS studies for our clients, I analyzed mining samples, and I've done many heavy metal studies. Lead is a heavy metal that repeatedly came up on my radar as a chemist.
 
Becuase of my access to the equipment and my personal curiosity....I collected air samples of the fumes coming off my lead pot, then I analysed the samples for lead content using a GCMS. There's lead in there folks.
 
When I digested samples to extract metals for analysis, I would digest those samples in a solution of Aquaresia, which is a mixture of Nitric Acid and Hydrocholoric Acid...this is a great solution for dissolving any metal. The human stomach contains low concentrations of Hydrocholoric Acid...its not enough to dissolve an entire bullet...but it will clean it off pretty good and what is removed goes strait into your blood and plates out on your bones.
 
The scary part is Biological Amplification. Heavy metals that make it into the blood stream stay there...they don't pass out of the body, they don't leave, ever. There is a thresh-hold level at which a person will exhibit the simptoms of lead poisoning, and each exposure to lead accumulates the amount of lead in the body.
 
You need to reduce your exposure so that you don't ever reach the thresh-hold levels in your lifetime. not eating or drinking while working with lead will reduce your exposure. Washing your hands thoroughly after working with lead will reduce your exposure. Bullet casting in a well ventilated location will reduce your exposure...casting bullets in an enclosed location will increase your exposure. Eating lead will definately increase your exposure. But don't fool yourself...everytime that you cast bullets you are exposing yourself to lead....you need to reduce the amount of exposure as much as possible.
 
If I have offended anybody, I am sorry. That was not my intent. But I like you guys and I enjoy coming here and reading your posts and sharing what I'm doing in the realm of shooting with all of you. So with that....Everybody have a nice day. 

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess if ignorance is bliss ill stay pretty blissfull until someone shows me anything in print that says that melting lead under 800 degrees which is the highest anyone cast at gives off any harmful fumes. I dont run scared because a bunch of yuppys are trying to ban everything were in contact with day to day. Like fried food, meat, a couple beers even the dust in your home scares them. hell i know guys that run around with sanitary hand wipes and use them constantly to kill the germs that man has been doing fine with for 100s of years. Heck in the citys you even see those idiots walking around with face masks on to keep them from getting others germs     It all seems to me like a bunch of excessive compulsive dorks that want to not only control everything in theres lives but in mine too! I may not live to a 100 but then i dont want to anyway and well im on this earth for my short stay im going to enjoy things without having a heart condition worrying about it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont understand some of your post. If lead stayed in the body and never came out how do you explain chelting. my lead level as high as 89 and now is at 10. My doctor did some checking when i was treated because hed never delt with it and came up with some info. He said that foundrys routinely give there workers milk to drink because it helps eliminate heavy metals. He also said vitiman C did the same thing. He used radiation poisoning as an example and said like that lead in your system has a half life and will lower itself without furture exposure on its own.  All i know is if it never left your body mine wouldnt have dropped and my tests were hair tests not blood tests and if lead was to be stored it would defineately be in your hair. Im not so ignorant as to believe that a guy casting will not be exposed to lead and injest some. But the small quanitys you obsorb if your carefull about it will naturaly be eliminated from your body. Go to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php and do a search for lead poisoning. Ive posted in a couple threads there about my troubles with it and most dont even want to believe that my level of lead was even plausable. Many there have been casting for 30 or more years and have had there levels checked and they tested well into the normal range.

When I graduated from college, I worked for 9 years as an analytical chemist and a laboratory supervisor. As only a part of my work as a chemist, I did Environmental Compliance Monitoring, I conducted NDPDS studies for our clients, I analyzed mining samples, and I've done many heavy metal studies. Lead is a heavy metal that repeatedly came up on my radar as a chemist.
 
Becuase of my access to the equipment and my personal curiosity....I collected air samples of the fumes coming off my lead pot, then I analysed the samples for lead content using a GCMS. There's lead in there folks.
 
When I digested samples to extract metals for analysis, I would digest those samples in a solution of Aquaresia, which is a mixture of Nitric Acid and Hydrocholoric Acid...this is a great solution for dissolving any metal. The human stomach contains low concentrations of Hydrocholoric Acid...its not enough to dissolve an entire bullet...but it will clean it off pretty good and what is removed goes strait into your blood and plates out on your bones.
 
The scary part is Biological Amplification. Heavy metals that make it into the blood stream stay there...they don't pass out of the body, they don't leave, ever. There is a thresh-hold level at which a person will exhibit the simptoms of lead poisoning, and each exposure to lead accumulates the amount of lead in the body.
 
You need to reduce your exposure so that you don't ever reach the thresh-hold levels in your lifetime. not eating or drinking while working with lead will reduce your exposure. Washing your hands thoroughly after working with lead will reduce your exposure. Bullet casting in a well ventilated location will reduce your exposure...casting bullets in an enclosed location will increase your exposure. Eating lead will definately increase your exposure. But don't fool yourself...everytime that you cast bullets you are exposing yourself to lead....you need to reduce the amount of exposure as much as possible.
 
If I have offended anybody, I am sorry. That was not my intent. But I like you guys and I enjoy coming here and reading your posts and sharing what I'm doing in the realm of shooting with all of you. So with that....Everybody have a nice day. 

[roper]

Seems that in the days before the first Nosler BTs came around, and dozens of copies and upgrades, game used to fall just as dead when shot with plain vanilla bullets.  I found an old box of Hornady 130 spire points today in .277.  They used to work just well.  Plain green Sierra was good also.  So were Speers.  There wasn't much else in my neighborhood.  Rem Core-Lokts were the standard for factory loads. 
What have we gained by spending twice as much on bullets as before?  I can't see any difference except that many open too quickly and some too slowly.  Our deer have not changed at all.  Hunters however, have become much more different.

When I started reloading 1965 the Partition was called premium and part of that was it cost more.  And like most bullets it's changed couple times over the years.  For many years I only used Rem bulk in my deer/elk rifles along with their bulk varmint bullets.

I started few years back trying different ones like the  Barnes TSX,Accubond,Partition and the E-Tip and I've found they are very accurate in my rifles.  One of my cow elk rifles 30-06 use 150gr E-Tip both 280AI and 284 use Accubond and I have couple rifles use the TSX.

I still use Rem bullets in some calibers and I like FB bullet but times change and I haven't had a problem with the bullets I'm using.

Here in Co our 2011 Big Game Regs had warning about lead in meat and that's all it is a warning and I'm sure at some point lead may be banned but right now not going to loose sleep over it.

[cwlongshot]

Here in Co our 2011 Big Game Regs had warning about lead in meat and that's all it is a warning and I'm sure at some point lead may be banned but right now not going to loose sleep over it.

Agreed,
I mean most often there is a amount of blood shot meat that is cut out and discarded. This will likely protect a large percentage from ingesting any lead particles that exist.

I remember being taught to eat game animals when I was little. You don't clench your teeth, bite gingerly expecting to hit a pellet or three. Spit it out and swallow...

While its true one could get fin stifle about such things simple common seance will still get you. Ery very far. Part of that is to find out just what's at hand.

I still shoot and eat game with lead bullets and shot. I still fish with lead sinkers and shot too.



CW

[woodchukhntr]

Back to the subject please, when did lead poisoning become the subject?

[Rock Home Isle]

I dont understand some of your post. If lead stayed in the body and never came out how do you explain chelting. my lead level as high as 89 and now is at 10. My doctor did some checking when i was treated because hed never delt with it and came up with some info. He said that foundrys routinely give there workers milk to drink because it helps eliminate heavy metals.

There drugs that can be used to reduce the effects of heavy metal poisoning...Chelation Therapy is one of those. There Nucleation therapies that work as well. But as you have indicated in your post, the treatments cannot get it all out of your system, they can reduce it.
 
I've never ben treated for heavy metal poisoning...But I know the biochemistry involved, and unless treated it stays with you. There are people that believe that the metals will leave the body over time on their own...they do not.
 
With what you've been through, I would surmise that you would know more about the treatments.

[Lloyd Smale]

from what i understand it migrates to your bone marrow. When you go through chelting it removes the lead from your blood but not your marrow. Once the blood level lowers the blood flow through the marrow then reduces it there and moves it back into the blood. Thats why many times you have to go through chelting more then once. I had mine reduced to 10 and have had it checked a year later and it was still 10 which is in the medium range for the average adult male in the US. The doctor said at 10 it wasnt worth worrying about anymore and not worth the expense to get it lower as normal people walking down the street have that much lead in them. 30-40 was the range that he said doctors get conserned about it. So you may be right in that you cant get it all out but then just about everyone out there has as much in them from just the normal conditions of life. Even at 89 i had no symtoms what so ever. I just had it checked because i was curious. Im glad i did as it opened my eyes a bit to my sloppy practices. I cast as much as i ever did but dont eat or smoke and wash my hands afterward and when i get in the house i take a shower and put clean clothes on. Also i used to do alot of indoor smelting in the barn. Now i wait till summer and do it out in the driveway.

[243dave]

I know we are off topic so I'll be brief and explain what I know from reading and a bit of chemistry background.  Lead is a bit like water.  When it is a solid no vapors come from it, when its a liquid it starts to release vapors (evaporation in water).  The closer lead or water gets to its boiling point the more gas/vapor/evaporation takes place.  800 degrees is a low temperture for lead since it boils at over 3000 degrees so there is only a small amount of lead vapor being released at casting temps but even a small amount does accumilate over time and precautions should be taken.  So I guess I agree somewhat with Lloyd that higher temps is where more concern needs to be taken but I do believe that there is some vapors released after lead becomes a liquid.  Anyway, even if I'm wrong, I will continue to take precautions when casting as I'm sure that Lloyd and Swampman both use ventilation when casting bullets.
Dave         

[243dave]

Here is a little from the ATSDR.  The last paragraph on 1.4
 
Your body does not change lead into any other form. Once it is taken in and distributed to your organs, the lead that is not stored in your bones leaves your body in your urine or your feces. About 99% of the amount of lead taken into the body of an adult will leave in the waste within a couple of weeks, but only about 32% of the lead taken into the body of a child will leave in the waste. Under conditions of continued exposure, not all of the lead that enters the body will be eliminated, and this may result in accumulation of lead in body tissues, especially bone.
 
For a lot more info on health concerns check out the rest.http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=92&tid=22
 
Dave