Author Topic: I MUST BE MISSING SOMETHING (Read 2832 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2012, 03:30:05 AM »

Sorry Sprithawk wasn't pointed at you , just making the point that self defense is a way of life 24-7. Well unless you know if and when an attack will come. Some who carry may not realize that looking like you are prepared often is enould to stop an attack. In the critter world the weak get attacked same for the human world .

Brett · « **Reply #31 on:** January 25, 2012, 03:31:48 AM »

To paraphrase Bogie's Sam Spade from the movie The Maltese Falcon: "Is that a gun in your Speedo or are you just glad to see me?" (One of my favorite movies by the way. They just don't seem to make movies like that any more. It's all about high tech special effects and fast action at the expense of good plots and good dialog.)

I degress... Unfortunately depending on ones carrier path CCW choices can have their limitations. Is a hi-cap .45 semi-auto or a large frame .357 mag. a better self defense weapon than a .32 'mouse gun'? Well duh!. A short barreled shotgun with extended mag. tube is better yet but it's pretty tuff to carry one on you into an office setting without freaking out your peers or clients. I'm just glad that the gun makers have provided so many options that anyone can choose something that works for them weather it be a .32 pocket pistol or 1911A1 .45.

Most of life is a compromise. I'ld like to tool around in a sports car too but they don't enough stuff like kids, tools, trash and canoes.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** January 25, 2012, 03:39:41 AM »

It was said above that one could slip a small gun in a pocket , better to slip a j frame in a pocket but it prints in most cases unless you wear pants one size larger and use a pocket holster. With a little fore thought one can go well armed and not draw attention . If one is not willing to make an effort to be well armed then why worry about it in the first place ? The thought is most any gun will kill at one time or another not as many will stop in time ! One should consider his attacker like the big game hunter looks at the BIG 5. The gun he carries must be a stopping gun . Not a fun gun , not an easy carry but a gun that will end a fight in time to save your life PERIOD !

Spirithawk · « **Reply #33 on:** January 25, 2012, 03:56:50 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 25, 2012, 03:30:05 AM

Sorry Sprithawk wasn't pointed at you , just making the point that self defense is a way of life 24-7. Well unless you know if and when an attack will come. Some who carry may not realize that looking like you are prepared often is enould to stop an attack. In the critter world the weak get attacked same for the human world .

No prob, and I agree.

Criminals prey on the weak and seek them out. Simply always being aware of your surroundings and apearing confident and prepared can go a long ways towards keeping you safe.

Brett · « **Reply #34 on:** January 25, 2012, 04:24:56 AM »

I understand your Point Shootall. However, you have to consider that the big game hunter is intentionally placing himself in a dangerous environment and is in fact looking to make contact with a dangerous predator. No one would expect a big game hunter to not be heavily armed in the field.

Most of us (if we are prudent) will avoid placing ourselves in places or situations where eminent danger is likely unless our work requires it, and those types of professions generally require that you go well armed anyway and carry special privileges not afforded to the rest of us. For example; no one is shocked or panicked by a cop or security guard carrying a gun. The average urban/suburban dweller/worker has a fairly low risk exposure level and the general populace in the urban/suburban environment is not accustomed to seeing an armed member of their group which could lead to all manor of problems for the (legally) armed individual if he is spotted.

In a perfect (or at least sensible) world all law abiding citizens would be aloud to, even expected to, carry openly and unabashedly. We don't live in a sensible world. We live in a world were people fear an inanimate object like a gun more than they fear real criminals.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** January 25, 2012, 04:42:33 AM »

Quote from: Brett on January 25, 2012, 04:24:56 AM

I understand your Point Shootall. However, you have to consider that the big game hunter is intentionally placing himself in a dangerous environment and is in fact looking to make contact with a dangerous predator. No one would expect a big game hunter to not be heavily armed in the field.

Most of us (if we are prudent) will avoid placing ourselves in places or situations where eminent danger is likely unless our work requires it,( how does one know any more ? people are attacked in churches , hospitals , resturants in exclusive neighborhoods etc. and those types of professions generally require that you go well armed anyway and carry special privileges not afforded to the rest of us ( I work in construction and have seen shootings on several job sites in not bad places I have also had jobs in bad areas and also saw shootings , Richmond Va was in the top 5 for murders for many years There is seldom a day someone isn't shot or stabed). For example; no one is shocked or panicked by a cop or security guard carrying a gun. The average urban/suburban dweller/worker has a fairly low risk exposure level and the general populace in the urban/suburban environment is not accustomed to seeing an armed member of their group which could lead to all manor of problems for the (legally) armed individual if he is spotted. ( here printing is reason to take both your weapon and lic to tote , dress the part if you are serious about being well armed.)

In a perfect (or at least sensible) world all law abiding citizens would be aloud to, even expected to, carry openly and unabashedly. We don't live in a sensible world. We live in a world were people fear an inanimate object like a gun more than they fear real criminals.( boy that's a mouth full of truth but it does not excuse those of us who realize the threat from not protecting ourselves and love ones )

If you live in a crime free area with no possiblity of attack GOD BLESS YOU and enjoy it you are truely blessed . I envy you !

Brett · « **Reply #36 on:** January 25, 2012, 05:08:20 AM »

Shootall, The dress requirement for a construction site is a lot less restrictive than that for an office environment. Loose fitting jeans and untucked shirts won't fly at the office. As you pointed out even printing can get your gun and license pulled in many places. If that happens you are a back to being completely unarmed. I would rather be perpetually armed with a smaller gun than find myself completely unarmed and defenseless at some point due to stupid gun laws. Don't know how I could be any more serious about self defense than that.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** January 25, 2012, 05:21:50 AM »

Quote from: Brett on January 25, 2012, 05:08:20 AM

Shootall, The dress requirement for a construction site is a lot less restrictive than that for an office environment. Loose fitting jeans and untucked shirts won't fly at the office. As you pointed out even printing can get your gun and license pulled in many places. If that happens you are a back to being completely unarmed. I would rather be perpetually armed with a smaller gun than find myself completely unarmed and defenseless at some point due to stupid gun laws. Don't know how I could be any more serious about self defense than that.

I am well aware of office dress these days as I spend 90% of my time in one . I find dress pants and coat much easier to hide a gun in . Your over site with construction and service work is one is always bending and streaching often having shirt tails comming out and exposing anything around ones waist , seldom do I see office workers doing manual labor of this type , maybe placing paper in the copy machine .
That cleared up I like front pocket carry for either. Yes selection of either jeans, work pants or dress slacks will need to be selected , altered and sized to accomidate you weapon.
It boils down to an effort to be armed and over comming adversity in weapon and clothing choice or trying to over come adversity with a inadquate tool on the street when and if attacked. Its really that simple . Play a game ( no hurt there) pick a known bad place that you don't go. What hand gun would you want if a hand gun was all you could have if you had to walk thru. this place at the worst possible time ? Then consider you may never go there but one of the thugs that make this place so bad may come to your comfort area and play hell with it.

Brett · « **Reply #38 on:** January 25, 2012, 06:40:20 AM »

I don't know of any dress slacks with front pockets big enough to conceal a G21 or 1911 Shootall. What exactly do you carry? What do you consider 'enough' gun for everyday carry? I'm not picking a fight, I'm just curious because you seem to view anyone who carries a compact or subcompact handgun as eresponcible and ill-prepared.

By the way, I've spent most of my life working in the construction trades and it's been my personal experience that I can more easily conceal a weapon (and have easier access to it) in work cloths than I can in a tailored business suit with tucked in shirt. Yes, I can hide my full sized M&P relatively well in a Supertuck holster buried under a sport coat and jacket but quick access is severely limited and I would not dare remove the jacket for fear of printing. And there is no way I could stash it in my front pocket as you suggest unless I was wearing a Zoot Suit from the 1930s.

williamlayton · « **Reply #39 on:** January 25, 2012, 06:50:07 AM »

That is what good belts and waist in the pants are for.
Might have to keep the jacket on or a sweater.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** January 25, 2012, 07:04:11 AM »

Quote from: Brett on January 25, 2012, 06:40:20 AM

I don't know of any dress slacks with front pockets big enough to conceal a G21 or 1911 Shootall. What exactly do you carry? I tote a S&W 340 PD its a 357 mag. J frame that weighs 12 oz unloaded .Also in the truck is a Glock 23 most days What do you consider 'enough' gun for everyday carry? Well a 357 mag seems to be a good choice , I like the revolver as it guides the hand around the grip since the cyl holds the pocket open some and snake shot is used when fishing etc. I'm not picking a fight,of course not , I hope others gain insight from our debate I'm just curious because you seem to view anyone who carries a compact or subcompact handgun as eresponcible and ill-prepared. No I really don't and at times have done so . What my point is why not carry as good a gun as possible ? Why not adujst your life style to acomidate a better weapon ? I hate the concept of just picking up something cute and small with out consideration of how it works and how to use it. A 25 , 22 or 32 are best used by shooting close placing bullet at contact in an eye , nose ,ear or open mouth . That's an effort to give the little pill the best chance to work . It also places the user in a bad situation. How many folks do you think consider this when picking a mouse gun ?

By the way, I've spent most of my life working in the construction trades and it's been my personal experience that I can more easily conceal a weapon (and have easier access to it) in work cloths than I can in a tailored business suit with tucked in shirt. I don't know about you but I hate monkey suits ! If its tailored then tailor it to suit your needs , most can be addresses . Just make sure the tailor knows you will have a gun with you at the fitting and is ok with it. Yes, I can hide my full sized M&P relatively well in a Supertuck holster buried under a sport coat and jacket but quick access is severely limited and I would not dare remove the jacket for fear of printing. Try a front pocket carry and a J frame. And there is no way I could stash it in my front pocket as you suggest unless I was wearing a Zoot Suit from the 1930s. Or have the pocket altered to accomidate the gun as many do , while at it get it leather lined .

With all respect you are doing what I try to get others not to do. You picked a gun then tried to make it work. I did also. I started with a Colt 1911, then a LW combat commander , several sigs etc. The one day got an airweight body guard . The bodyguard was easy to hide , easy to shoot and was always with me. Later up graded to 357 mag.
An instructor show me a test , shoot a 3X5 index card at seven yards from draw in 1.5 seconds and double tap a 8.5X11 inch pcs of paper at 15 yards in 2 seconds from draw. You should be able to do this with your carry gun set up. I can't do it with a smaller gun than a J frame ( and no I can't do it 100% of the time with a Jframe but can enough to be dangerous to an attacker).
And no I have no illusions that a 357 mag J frame is the best , its the smallest I feel comfortable with most of the time . When its not enough it can be complimented with another gun.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #41 on:** January 25, 2012, 07:13:02 AM »

Having to bury it so deep you have to dig to reach your firearm can be just as dangerous as not having it at all. For realy deep conceal I prefer a 511 tactical shirt. A dress shirt can be worn over it, your weapon won't print, and you have relatively easy access to the firearm without having to dig for it. It also provides a very smooth and fast draw comparable to a break-open shoulder holster. One of the reasons I chose my PF-9 is that mode of dress is never ever an issue. Heck, I usually have several options for carry no matter how I'm dressed and I'm comfortable carrying a 9mm. I have concidered a light weight .357 but mainly because I like the caliber, not because I feel the need.

Brett · « **Reply #42 on:** January 25, 2012, 07:35:03 AM »

Ah, now we seem to be zeroing in on the same target. My two every day CCWs are a S&W M60 J-frame and a Kel-tec P-11 9mm. I sometimes carry the J-frame in a front pocket, usually when I wear coveralls (no waste band for an IWB holster) but I'm not a big guy and find it bulky and uncomfortable. It is also very obvious that I have something in my front pocket other than a set of car keys. The J-frame usually rides in a leather IWB holster under an untucked polo/golf shirt when casual dress is appropriate. The P-11 is what I carry most often (12 rounds of 9mm) and generally is worn inside my waste band using a 'pocket' clip attached to the frame of the gun itself. If a suit and jacket are required my mode of carry does not change, I just do not remove the jacket. I can easily sweep the jacket back to fasilitate the draw.

So what I think what we are both saying is carry the most effective gun you possibly can by adjusting your wardrobe/lifestyle as best you can within the allowable parameters of your given circumstances.

Holly cow... that's a mouth full. But I can't think of a more streamline way of saying it.

This has been a good and enjoyable discussion Shootall.

Thanks for your respectful and enlightening participation.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #43 on:** January 25, 2012, 07:49:21 AM »

I'm a big guy and like bibs also . What I do in winter is wear jeans under them with gun in front pocket of jeans and bibs not buttoned on the sides . In summer I wear cut off jeans doing the same thing. With a suit and or jacket/coat I find a shoulder rig is nice and often carry one while hunting. Like Spirthawk says lots of options.

Brett · « **Reply #44 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:40:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 25, 2012, 07:49:21 AM

I'm a big guy and like bibs also . What I do in winter is wear jeans under them with gun in front pocket of jeans and bibs not buttoned on the sides . In summer I wear cut off jeans doing the same thing. With a suit and or jacket/coat I find a shoulder rig is nice and often carry one while hunting. Like Spirthawk says lots of options.

What?! You don't go commando?!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** January 25, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »

Naw not the commando type !

although I once had some Carhartt bibs in camo

Brett · « **Reply #46 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:17:39 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 25, 2012, 08:55:22 AM

Naw not the commando type ! although I once had some Carhartt bibs in camo

LOL

drdougrx · « **Reply #47 on:** January 26, 2012, 09:24:31 AM »

Just click'n in....COMMANDO!!! what's my kids say??? euwwwww!!!!!!

williamlayton · « **Reply #48 on:** January 28, 2012, 04:34:11 AM »

What is wrong with wearing a sports jacket with Bib's?

Blessings

Brett · « **Reply #49 on:** January 28, 2012, 05:41:12 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on January 28, 2012, 04:34:11 AM

What is wrong with wearing a sports jacket with Bib's?

Blessings

You mean a redneck leisure suite?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** January 30, 2012, 01:23:37 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on January 28, 2012, 04:34:11 AM

What is wrong with wearing a sports jacket with Bib's?

Blessings

seen it done more than once.......... but the tie never lays right !

cwlongshot · « **Reply #51 on:** January 30, 2012, 02:02:18 AM »

LOL you guys are too funny!!

Some where I have a pic of me 50# heavier wearing camo overalls, no shirt, my 45 slung around my belly and my buddies '06 in one hand and a mouse in the other. It was a Maine bear hunt about a doz years back and our cabin was FULL of mice!!! I was shooting and hangin them off the game pole out back. This game pole is built for at least 2 moose and 6 bears. Looked comical with a half doz mice hangin with me in my "getup".... ( Yes some alcohol was involved...)

CW

Brett · « **Reply #52 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:20:21 PM »

CW, If you find that photo please post it.

slayer · « **Reply #53 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:36:12 PM »

Well, I am lucky enough to live in Pennsylvania where we have both legal laws of Open Carry and CCW(this one you need a permit for).
For me, for dual purpose of CCW and OC I use a .9mm Makarov as I believe it is a nice compromise of size-power and weight. Conceals well and open carries very well.

Now for Open Carry only, I have a Dan Wesson 744VH10 .44 Mag . I use it for open carry and hunting without a scope. Now this gun is very heavy, so mostly for hunting.

Next is a full sized 1911 .22 and/or .45 acp.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #54 on:** January 30, 2012, 04:58:29 PM »

Here in Missouri if you have a CCW permit you must always carry concealed.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #55 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:13:25 AM »

In Va. it depends on the population in the city , over 100000 must conc.

williamlayton · « **Reply #56 on:** January 31, 2012, 11:28:47 PM »

There truely are a lot of variables in this conversation.
In our world there is constant opportunity for violence to occur. I am, at age 70, one of those old & slow, easy prey folks. I may not make it out but I demand a chance.
There once was a supply Sgt.--true story--who complained about the amount of ammo consumed by the troops----well you know the rest of that story.
In the field you most probably have the opportunity to be confronted by Larger & more dangerous life forms and carrying a caliber large enough for them is wise.
In an urban situation--do the same.
A construction trade is a good discussion. I am not sure why folks folks get so upset about seeing a gun. I know it is the subject of a stare when it happens--but I don't know why it matters.
When I see a buldge ( don't even go there with this part of the conversation ) the onliest reaction that comes to my mind is what is it and can I see it---not that I would ask but--just sayin.
I like guns--looking at 'em, shooting 'em--heckfire boys, who of us don't walk the line at the range and admire--They are not a taboo subject for me.
Blessings

Brett · « **Reply #57 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:19:46 AM »

I'm with you William. When I spot a tell tail bulge or catch a glimpse of someones shooting iron when out and about my first thoughts are: "Ooh, wonder what it is?... Wish I could get a better look". Unfortunately, the liberal media have brain washed too many folks into thinking guns are somehow evil devices with their own wills and anyone who would carry one must be a paranoid lunatic.

Now I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean someone may not be out to get me. Just means I'm a little more prepared if/when they make their move.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:42:35 AM »

some turn you in looking for tha min of fame

The Pistoleer · « **Reply #59 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:22:46 AM »

Wisconsin has as far as I can remember has been an open carry state but in some cities, like liberal Madison it would cause a ruckus. Now we have both open and concealed so it doesn't matter if your gun shows. I carried concealed illegally here for 45 years and learned how to be very discrete. Now that I have my permit I have been a little more careless. This morning at McDonald's I checked my vest and found that my PF-9's barrel was sticking out about a half inch! I pulled the vest down to cover it but there wouldn't have been any legal problems if it had been noticed.

I guess we now have the best of both worlds.

Pete