Author Topic: I made a signal device today (Read 3793 times)

ironball · « **Reply #30 on:** January 07, 2012, 04:54:15 PM »

Quote from: rsilvers on January 07, 2012, 04:49:07 PM

Thanks on the bread tip.

Does anyone have experience with 1 inch bore blanks to know at what point you get diminishing returns for the boom? In other words, what is the recommended load fo which there is no point in going higher?

Trust your ears!

rsilvers · « **Reply #31 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:05:57 PM »

I would be all about testing it, but I am not sure how many shots I get before the noise complaints come.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:08:23 PM »

The best bang was my point! 300 grains of Goex cannon in 1.25 bore makes about as loud of a report as heavier charges. I went to 350 & backed it off. I can get ~20 charges out of a pound of powder... so almost a 21 gun salute. We clean the bore scrupiously & regularly inspect the bore, plus inspections by the Capt of Artillery at events (all bores inspected before taking the field).

Having fired my swivel, we move on to bigger things...

rsilvers · « **Reply #33 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:18:40 PM »

A 1.25 inch ball of powder that is 300 grains would be about 190 grains as a 1.00 inch ball of powder. So maybe that means 190 grains would be good for a 1 inch. I could mark it 200 grains max.

ironball · « **Reply #34 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:20:49 PM »

Depends on the granulation. You might get better report with 300 grains FFg. You might just be wasting powder at that level. Coarser powder generates less pressure under a projectile. Finer powder makes much more bang in a blank. Trust you ears!

Artilleryman · « **Reply #35 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:38:23 PM »

Quote from: ironball on January 07, 2012, 04:45:37 PM

Quote from: Rayfan87 on January 07, 2012, 03:53:25 PM
Max load for a 1" bore is more like 170 grains.

I have shot heavier loads in .58 cal rifles.

On this forum we recommend reasonable loads. What you suggest does not fall within that range is not recommended.

ironball · « **Reply #36 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:50:32 PM »

He is talking about blanks. You are talking about light target loads with solid shot. There is a huge difference.

Since there has been a change on this forum, lets get this out in the open right now. A given load is not automatically unsafe just because the "moderators" don't recommend it.

I'm sure Graybeard is not about to ban anyone for disagreeing with the mods. Just be polite!

Artilleryman · « **Reply #37 on:** January 07, 2012, 06:13:43 PM »

In future posts instead of just saying "loads" in would be helpful to indicate if you are talking about blanks or ball loads.

GGaskill · « **Reply #38 on:** January 07, 2012, 06:20:41 PM »

I have shot heavier loads in .58 cal rifles.

I am not challenging that statement; however, a rifle is restrained in a different manner than most cannons and they typically weigh a lot more than a cannon of the same bore. You don't want the cannon to become a secondary projectile from the recoil.

ironball · « **Reply #39 on:** January 07, 2012, 06:22:45 PM »

Blank loads were the topic of the original post.

But yes, I have shot charges heavier than 170 grains behind 500 grain slugs in rifles before. And the diameter of the barrel at the chamber was no where near 3 times the caliber.
And no. My rifle didn't come close to anything near what a 1" bore would weigh.
Happy Now?

GGaskill · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2012, 06:39:10 PM »

Our recommendations are just that, our recommedations. People asking for them are free to use them or use others. Either or both are used at their own risk.

ironball · « **Reply #41 on:** January 07, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on January 07, 2012, 06:39:10 PM

Our recommendations are just that, our recommedations. People asking for them are free to use them or use others. Either or both are used at their own risk.

Thanks. That's what many folks wanted to hear. I don't think I know any more than anyone else here, but I don't like it when some others act like they are the absolute authority of loading data because they read something or other on someone else's website.

rsilvers · « **Reply #42 on:** January 07, 2012, 07:07:12 PM »

A muzzle loading rifle takes 150 grains, and that is with a long barrel and projectile:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

My wall thickness is not only insanely more than this rifle, and I will not have a projectile, but I won't be holding it when it fires.

BoomLover · « **Reply #43 on:** January 07, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »

Say George and Artilleryman, what exactly are the safe loading "differences" between a Muzzle loading Rifle vs a Muzzle loading Cannon, Mortar, or Howitzer? Why would it be safer to load a muzzle loading RIFLE (with a bore/wall thickness ratio far less than a cannon etc) with MORE powder than a Cannon, Mortar, or Howitzer? If I'm reading something different here than what is being discussed, I must be missing something important or of a serious nature! Now, I admit, I have only shot these types of arms a few times, but if you have a .50 cal rifle, vs a .50 cal cannon, why is it considered by some to be safer to fire more powder in the rifle than equivalent bore size in a cannon? I'm not happy with the answers yet, can you make me understand? I know this is a Cannon, Mortar, and Howitzer Forum, but if there is a safety issue being brought up, I think it needs clarifying...Thanks, BoomLover
(By the way, I'm not trying to be obstinate here, just after firing cannons, etc, for a few years, I saw this discussion and wanted more answers, if there are any!)

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #44 on:** January 07, 2012, 08:17:16 PM »

The logic is that there should be no difference between the safety or load of a 50 cal cannon and a 50 cal rifle when comparing apples to apples. I think the difference in recommended loads has its origins in the fact that usually we are not talking apples to apples. If someone has a rifle it is almost certain that the barrel is gun steel and has been made by an arms manufacturer or a professional barrel maker. Cannons are just not as popular or widely used, so the quality or origin is less likely to be consistent. The muzzle loading forums are not inundated with questions like "how can I take a water pipe and make it into a flintlock"; "can I shoot a marble or a fishing sinker out of my caplock". If the "cannon business" was as standardized, inexpensive and popular as the muzzleloading business, and if there weren't so many people "building there own", the loads and recommendations wouldn't be conservative. It's just the nature of the beast. Teach the newbees how not to kill themselves, so they have the time to learn enough to know what's safe. Anything else is just irresponsible.

GGaskill · « **Reply #45 on:** January 07, 2012, 08:24:38 PM »

... what exactly are the safe loading "differences" between a Muzzle loading Rifle vs a Muzzle loading Cannon, Mortar, or Howitzer?

Assuming the barrels were made from the same material and the breech plugs fitted the same way (essentially taking the muzzle loading rifle and cutting it off at cannon length), there should be no difference in safe loads regarding bursting. However, because of weight differences and support differences, a rifle load in a cannon likely would cause such strong recoil that the cannon would become a secondary projectile, not to say it might come apart. And we can't really make that assumption in good faith.

Check the recommended loads for factory made cannnon and compare them to loads for rifles and report back.

BoomLover · « **Reply #46 on:** January 07, 2012, 09:05:58 PM »

....thank you both. Both answers are filling in blanks that I felt were left out, and I understand fully, now. I have always followed the safe recommendations for powder loads for cannons, and I don't think that is up for question, seeing as the information has been gained by extensive testing of both powders and metals. Especially knowing the differences between Cannons, and Muzzle Loading handheld firearms, such as Rifles and Pistols....overloading a muzzle loading Rifle or Handgun will injure or kill only the operator, usually, while doing the same with Cannon, Mortars, or Howitzer is dangerous to life and limb to anyone within 100 yards or more! Thanks again for the clarification! Thanks again, BoomLover

WindElevation · « **Reply #47 on:** January 07, 2012, 11:34:46 PM »

Hi all, newbee here, this is for my own curriousity. If [rsilvers] were to make a sleeve or ring with enough thickness for a 1:3 ratio and high enough to reach from the base above the powder charge. Drill a slightly larger vent hole in it and heat shrink it aligning the vent holes, then redrill the vent hole for a threaded vent. Would this make it safe? Would it be safe to fire a projectile? Just currious, preparing to make my first cannon a 1/3 scale 3" Parrott..... Gary ... Also should rsilvers cannon have some kind of base?

Victor3 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 08, 2012, 12:41:49 AM »

WindE,

What you're describing is pretty close to how the original Parrotts were made, and how I made my 1st scratch-built cannon (a 1" smooth bore Parrott).

Would it make it safer? Maybe. He's already made it from modern steel and of a design that would be near impossible to blow up with BP though.

Adding another hunk of steel to it could very well make it less safe (if you drop it on your foot). No cannon/mortar is "safe." If they were, they wouldn't be good for anything.

Mike H. · « **Reply #49 on:** January 08, 2012, 02:29:15 AM »

Quote from: rsilvers on January 07, 2012, 03:34:29 PM

I would have preferred to follow that rule, but this was the only bar I had, and I didn't have a 3/4 inch drill, and wanted a 1" bore.

Does anyone have experience to know how a 0.75 vs 1.0 vs 2.0 inch bore sounds?

I only have Goex FF now, but I plan to get some Goex Cannon - I assume coarse is best?

Is it really true that duct tape over the bore makes a better sound than just a wad? I find that hard to believe.

Is 400 grains too much for a max charge?

I bore everything I make at the 1/1 chamber/wall ratio. Even signal can be very high pressure because you use much more powder.

I have found 3/4" bore to be very efficient in the powder/noise ratio. You burn more powder in a 1" to get equal noise as the 3/4".

BUT, you can go way beyond the noise level of a 3/4 bore with a 1" bore, you just have to burn even more powder.

rsilvers · « **Reply #50 on:** January 08, 2012, 03:29:21 AM »

There is a company making 2 inch bore and 4 inch OD units - and - they are aluminum - not as strong as steel. If that does not blow up, this won't.

Zulu · « **Reply #51 on:** January 08, 2012, 05:05:16 AM »

Quote from: rsilvers on January 08, 2012, 03:29:21 AM

There is a company making 2 inch bore and 4 inch OD units - and - they are aluminum - not as strong as steel. If that does not blow up, this won't.

rsilvers,
Your aluminum statement could easily be misconstrued by an inexperienced person to mean it's okay to build cannons out of aluminum, when clearly, it is not.
In your opinion, how can this forum provide guidence to those who need or want it? Don't you think we must have some "middle of the road" guideline to offer?
Zulu

rsilvers · « **Reply #52 on:** January 08, 2012, 06:45:30 AM »

I plan to follow the "wall as thick as the bore" rule. Given that I only had 2.25 inch bar, I should have made a 0.75 inch bore. I actually don't think it is needed, but will do it anyway.

By the way, I tried it today with 270 grains by weight of Goex FFg. I then packed on 3 layers of Fedex-box cardboard cut into disks. All it did was make a pooft and barely any noise. I assume the problem is that I needed more resistance. I did not have any Wonder Bread - I switched to whole wheat last year.

Now it is black.

rsilvers · « **Reply #53 on:** January 08, 2012, 06:48:41 AM »

Unit is 2183 grams / 77 oz.

Soot · « **Reply #54 on:** January 08, 2012, 07:33:19 AM »

Quote

I tried it today with 270 grains by weight of Goex FFg. I then packed on 3 layers of Fedex-box cardboard cut into disks. All it did was make a pooft and barely any noise.

I shoot my 1" t mug with 200 grains of FF Goex with bread wadding and the report is unbelievable.
I've gone as high as 225 grains but backed it off.
Yours is essentially the same as mine, I would expect similar results.

rsilvers · « **Reply #55 on:** January 08, 2012, 07:57:54 AM »

Tell me about your experience with different charges. Have you tried 150, 200, 225? How does 200 compare to 225? You use one slice of WonderBread, without crust? Have you tried cardboard and had inferior results?

Have you compared FF to another type of powder?

Does someone sell tamping devices like yours?

I googled a lot, and there is basically zero information out there on how to best load these.

Soot · « **Reply #56 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:13:54 AM »

I've only used the FF Goex and about 1/3 - 1/2 slice of bread.
150 grains was pretty loud, 200 grains is really loud.
Standing 20 yards away with 200 grains, you can feel the shock wave running through the ground and the concussion hit you in the chest.
200 grains is scarey loud and 225 even more so. I'm fine with 180-200.
I made the ram myself out of aluminum and some sort of hardwood.

Triple D · « **Reply #57 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:40:31 AM »

I, like Soot, use 200 grains of FF powder in my 1" bore mortar. It is 4 inches tall and made of 4140 steel. The concussion wave sets off the cheap car alarms in the apartment complex behind my house, so I can only get away with setting it off at the house on New Year's Eve and July 4th. I use bread wadding packed in to the top of the bore to get the best 'BANG' !

GGaskill · « **Reply #58 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:51:51 AM »

There is a company making 2 inch bore and 4 inch OD units - and - they are aluminum - not as strong as steel.

The problem with aluminum for gun barrels is that, unlike steel, it nevers stops creeping. If you look at fatigue graphs, steel will reach a plateau where it has essentially indefinite life while aluminum never does. That is why airplane parts are replaced after so many hours of service or number of landings. While aluminum would work for a while as a gun barrel, eventually it will burst.

We definitely recommend you not use aluminum for a cannon or mortar barrel.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #59 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:52:37 AM »

Quote from: rsilvers on January 08, 2012, 06:45:30 AM

I plan to follow the "wall as thick as the bore" rule. Given that I only had 2.25 inch bar, I should have made a 0.75 inch bore. I actually don't think it is needed, but will do it anyway.

I agree. Good decision. Overbuilding is OK.

Quote from: rsilvers on January 08, 2012, 06:45:30 AM

By the way, I tried it today with 270 grains by weight of Goex FFg. I then packed on 3 layers of Fedex-box cardboard cut into disks. All it did was make a pooft and barely any noise. I assume the problem is that I needed more resistance. I did not have any Wonder Bread - I switched to whole wheat last year.

Short barrels (as in mortars) are sometimes tough to get the pressure up for firing blanks. The powder initially burning pushes everything out before it gets ramped up in pressure. Add a little more cardboard or get it to fit tighter. The game is not to put too much in - get there by working up to it.

LOOKS GREAT in black!