I made a signal device today

[Cat Whisperer]

....

Now it is black.

calendar picture!

[rsilvers]

If there was no concern about annoying people, I would sound test 100, 125, 150, 175, 200, 225, 250, 275, and 300 grains. It would be great to find out at what point it stops getting louder.


TripleD - how many slices of Wonder Bread would it take to get to the top?


I assume everyone removes the crust?


Those who use FF - do you use FF because that is what you have, or you tried Cannon Powder and F, and FF is better for this?

[Soot]

I assume everyone removes the crust?

I leave the crust, it's so soft that it doesn't matter.

[rsilvers]

I was reading some instructions that said to use good wad of newspaper. Would that be crumpled paper, or flat paper?

[Soot]

Newspaper can catch fire so it's not recommended.
Use bread or fresh cut grass clippings.

[Cat Whisperer]

Crumple it up.  But be prepared, the smoking-flaming cardboard disks are easier to put out than the crumpled newspaper.

(no big deal, just expect some burning pieces.)

DO NOT PUT IT IN WET.  (That is a technique used for destroying cannon tubes to keep the enemy from using them when retreating.)

[rsilvers]

Ok. No paper.


If I use bread - is the goal to just use about an inch of it, or to fill the barrel almost completely?


I don't really understand the properties of black powder. I have read that smokeless powder burns and needs to be contained to boom, whereas black powder is actually an explosive, and detonates. But clearly that is not true, as if you ignite a small pile of it, it just burns.


Or is the truth in the middle - if it is moderately restrained it will detonate where as smokeless will not?

[flagman1776]

I use fresh grass clippings or seaweed (depending on what is local to the site).  I use a loose ball of green vegitation about the size of the bore.  I'm not above dunking them in my swab bucket, squeezing them out before loading if they seem dry.  I think it improves the report somewhat & is much prefered to having bits of confetti all over the lawn...  particularly if someone has been generous enough to supply a place to fire.  The crew no longer has to put out fires between shots.

[Triple D]

Sometimes I use bread with a champagne cork in the end.  If just bread,  it maybe is about 1/2 slice with crust.

[rsilvers]

I have seen it written that black power is impact sensitive, but I cannot find any evidence that it is actually true. For example "Such and such an impact will ignite black powder."


I will assume it is true for the sake of handling, but at the same time - I would like to see proof of what level of impact can ignite it.


Has anyone actually ever set off black powder from a wooden ramrod and a mallet?


http://books.google.com/books?id=Dzxyneq43AEC&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=black+powder+full+weight+ramrod&source=bl&ots=6ig2NiEitX&sig=fppm0raI8F2xBHpipy6y8ppnn98&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RC4KT4TQNrOx0QGGhaTzDw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=black%20powder%20full%20weight%20ramrod&f=false


"Warning: never lead body weight on a ramrod as it can go off by pressure."


I just loaded it with bread, but the bread is spongey, and so it does not pack solid.

[rsilvers]

People who press black powder on purpose say that 1000 psi is fine. So, assuming this is true, for a 1 inch bore, one would have to weigh 1000 lbs to have to avoid putting their 'full weight' on the ramrod.


http://www.tripoli.org/Motors/MotorTypes/BlackPowderMotors/tabid/148/Default.aspx


"Black Powder has a fine line between compression and self ignition, pressures up to 900 to 1000 psi. are typical pressures for pressing but a slight increase in this pressure can lead to combustion. "

[GGaskill]

There is no need to compress black powder to anything near that degree.  The goal is to have the charge all in one place and compacted but not crushed.  I personally think that if it is compacted too much, the charge will burn slower because the fire cannot spread through the charge and ignite the grains quickly.  The small Estes model rocket motors are compressed black powder and they burn for an extended period because the fire has to burn through the solid mass.

[ironball]

Impact sensitive? I doubt it. I bet that those ramming explosions were caused by a spark, either a burning ember left in the bore, or a rammer made from some material that sparked against the barrel.
 
Try setting a small amount of BP off by hitting it as hard as you can with a hammer. Nothing happens. Put it on an anvil and strike it with a hard enough tool, then, if you get a metal to metal spark, you might get it to burn. It's pretty safe as far as explosives go.
 
Put a can out on the back lawn and shoot it with the biggest gun you have. See what does not happen.

[rsilvers]

I want to try smokeless powder.
 I have been lied to. All of these warnings about NOT USING SMOKELESS POWDER IN BLACK POWDER FIREARMS... It never made sense to me. Why not?
Too much pressure? So use a smokeless powder with a slower burn or use less of it.
It turns out that A5744, a smokeless powder, is the right burn rate for black powder firearms - just use about 1/2 the weight of it. Non corrosive, 1/2 the cost per shot, no residue, etc. There are several others.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/understanding_smokeless_muzzleloading.htm
I am ashamed it took me until now to verify this.

[GGaskill]

I want to try smokeless powder.

This is a very bad idea but we can't stop you if you have to go there.  Smokeless is about 3 times as powerful as black for the same weight and much more pressure sensitive.  The black powder burn rate is relatively insensitive to chamber pressure; the smokeless burn rate is highly dependent on chamber pressure.  You are taking a big risk if you use smokeless.

Also, smokeless will not work well at low pressures while black powder does.

If you try this, make sure spectators are far away and they have a cell phone in case you need 911.

[rsilvers]

 You said: "smokeless will not work well at low pressures while black powder does."
and
"If you try this, make sure spectators are far away and they have a cell phone in case you need 911."
I am not sure it can be both - so would you think it is more pressure in a projectile-less cannon or less pressure?

[GGaskill]

I think you will be unable to get a good boom for a salute using smokeless and no shot.  You won't be able to get the pressure up fast enough.

With a shot, you may get the pressure up too fast.

It is unknown territory in terms of validated pressure numbers.  Small arms data are irrelevant.  Smokeless artillery uses powders not available to the muzzle loader so any data from that source is not relevant. 

The closest experience I have had is using Pyrodex, which is basically a smokeless powder modified to act somewhat like black powder under limited circumstances.  It performs poorly unless you can get the pressure up.  I was never able to do that in my beer can mortar.  I usually used it 50-50 with BP and I would get a lazy flame from the muzzle after the shot had gone.  When I replaced it with an equal amount of BP, I got twice the range and no lazy flame.  A friend of mine who had a sort of unlimited supply of mixed smokeless rifle powders would mix some in with his BP loads and had the same results.

Obviously small amounts are not going to be dangerous.  My concern is that performance will be poor to bad; you will add more powder to try to get better performance but you have no method of measuring pressure other than the sound.  When you get enough sound, what is the pressure?  Too much?  We don't know.  Because smokeless can generate pressures so much higher than BP, there is a danger, even if I can't quantify it.

There is a point where excessive intrepidness finds the explorer over the cliff.

[IvarForkbeard]

Here is one I made for someone in Florida. 1" bore in 3.33 finished OD. Bore is 7.75" into a 9.25" tube. Base plate is 5.25" square, plug welded to the bottom. I have no worries of it ever failing, as I did "Over Engineer" it a bit, but as it is now out of my control, I would rather err on the side of safety than have to explain to the widow....

[rsilvers]

I like that - next time I get motivated I should look at my lathe and figure out the largest OD I can handle. Do anyone know how bore length effects sound?

[shred]

If anybody hasn't lit a small pile of smokeless powder (1 tbsp or so, use appropriate safety precautions, natch), versus the same amount of BP, it's a clear illustration that they work in different ways.  If you think about how radically different it behaves when confined and not, the in-between isn't really somewhere I want to be experimenting.

[ironball]

Black powder burns at a single rate for a given granulation. Smokeless is what they call "progressive burning". The burning rate goes up with increasing pressure. In other words, the more pressure inside the gun, the faster the remaining powder burns, increasing the pressure so much faster, increasing the burning rate even more, ect. So you can see how hard it would be to control with different weight projectiles. Or wads.
 
BTW, wouldn't discussion of smokeless be off topic on a black powder forum?

[Cat Whisperer]

Black powder burns at a single rate for a given granulation. Smokeless is what they call "progressive burning". The burning rate goes up with increasing pressure. In other words, the more pressure inside the gun, the faster the remaining powder burns, increasing the pressure so much faster, increasing the burning rate even more, ect. So you can see how hard it would be to control with different weight projectiles. Or wads.
 
BTW, wouldn't discussion of smokeless be off topic on a black powder forum?

Black powder burns by the gasses burning on the surface - which is self limiting as the higher the pressure the lower the rate of emission of the gasses; which as you say is the opposite of smokeless which burns faster with higher pressures.

[rsilvers]

Black powder burns by the gasses burning on the surface - which is self limiting as the higher the pressure the lower the rate of emission of the gasses; which as you say is the opposite of smokeless which burns faster with higher pressures.

That would explain why the ball has to be seated on the powder - as it will limit the pressure. And if you leave an air gap, the pressure will go higher.


So thinking about that in terms of a signal device - would it not be better to purposely leave the air gap between the powder and wad to get more pressure? Is this why people said they get better results with duct tape over the exit?

[flagman1776]

If anybody hasn't lit a small pile of smokeless powder (1 tbsp or so, use appropriate safety precautions, natch), versus the same amount of BP, it's a clear illustration that they work in different ways.  If you think about how radically different it behaves when confined and not, the in-between isn't really somewhere I want to be experimenting.

I used to (with appropriate FFL licenses) own & operate a bullet casting / reloading business.  It was not uncommon to have a small amount of spilled smokeless on the reloading bench which I would not return to the container because of possible contamination.  Once, upon return from the range, I discovered a tick on me which really did not want to let go.  I removed him & flung him on his back into the center of the iron ashtray of spilled smokeless which I took outside.  There really was not much powder, just a thin coat.  I added a lit match to the edge with a long pair of pliers.  It was facinating to watch the powder progressively but quickly burn from that edge.  NO, Mr Tick did not out run the flame. 
I would never use smokeless in a black powder firearm.   Many times new members here have tried Pyrodex and complained of poor report.   Switch to black powder & all is well.  Put Pyrodex in the search box & see for yourself.   

[Cannon Cocker]

I don't really understand the properties of black powder. I have read that smokeless powder burns and needs to be contained to boom, whereas black powder is actually an explosive, and detonates. But clearly that is not true, as if you ignite a small pile of it, it just burns.


Or is the truth in the middle - if it is moderately restrained it will detonate where as smokeless will not?

All black powder is in a class of explosives called deflagrants.  Deflagrate means to burn down and builds up more pressure as it does.  Deflagrants are low explosives (don't detonate) and explosives that do detonate are high explosives (TNT, dynamite, nitro glycerine, etc).  Some powders are kind of in the middle and you can find arguments about whether they are high or low explosives like flashpowder which  burns super fast but will "detonate" in a big enough pile just sitting there.  Incidentally, don't use flashpowder (firecracker, or M80 powder) in anything metal, or you will be wearing a piece of metal instead of teeth.

[BoomLover]

Thank you, Flagman1776 and Cannon Cocker, for your responses...good information for those who either haven't researched it, or haven't tested it.  This is what I like about this forum, people are willing to step forward to get the information out to those who are either "newbies" or have pre-existing ideas. (or, haven't had the opportunity to be faced with those decisions!) Encouraging for others to step up and impart their knowledge, also! BoomLover

[rsilvers]

Today I got 170 dB at 1 meter.


270 grains FFg Goex, 1 hamburger roll.


That is loud, so it is working. But it is not louder than a 50 BMG. So I am not really impressed until it is louder than any gun I own.


Maybe duct tape can help. Maybe more powder. Or maybe I need a longer bore or larger bore.


It is too bad you don't all have 1474-D Mil Spec sound meters to see what it takes to get louder.

[Double D]

Get rid of the bread dough projectile. Bread and grass clippings have both  been reported here in the past as causing down range damage.  One of the two broke a window.   I know grass clippings in my own experience went across the street as a solid mass before blowing apart.

Make a snug fitting bore size card wad.

Put 270 grains of FFFg in a foil cartridge. load the foil cartridge,  push a single card wad down snuggly over the foil cartridge.  Fire.

There is a limit to how loud your little thunder mug will be.  If you want louder, go bigger.

It  has also been reported that you can fill the bore above the foil cartridge  with cream of wheat, flour or cremora to increase the bang in blanks. 

 

[ironball]

Just how can a piece of bread dough cause any damage when launched straight up from his thundermug?

[Double D]

Just how can a piece of bread dough cause any damage when launched straight up from his thundermug?

Gravity!