Long range rifle/bullet question

[spitpatch]

Hi All,
      I have a question about the .308 round that I'm sure someone can answer. Why was the .308 used for so long, as the long range competition round at camp perry matches?
      I'll cut to the chase. I'm looking for a gun/bullet combination for long range shooting at 800 Yd plus. I shoot a Barrett 50BMG at these ranges, but the cost of ammo is starting to be a factor. I'm looking for something with tolerable recoil and a decent punch.
      My brother shoots a .308 bolt gun and I'm hopeful that one of you Marines can tell me about the .308 round and why it was the "shooters choice" for long range. Should I be looking for something different for long range? Please tell me about good rifle/bullet combinations as I want to stretch it out some more to 1000-1200 Yds.

[Lloyd Smale]

it combined a inherently accurate round that had just enough power to get the job done with very little recoil.

Hi All,
      I have a question about the .308 round that I'm sure someone can answer. Why was the .308 used for so long, as the long range competition round at camp perry matches?
      I'll cut to the chase. I'm looking for a gun/bullet combination for long range shooting at 800 Yd plus. I shoot a Barrett 50BMG at these ranges, but the cost of ammo is starting to be a factor. I'm looking for something with tolerable recoil and a decent punch.
      My brother shoots a .308 bolt gun and I'm hopeful that one of you Marines can tell me about the .308 round and why it was the "shooters choice" for long range. Should I be looking for something different for long range? Please tell me about good rifle/bullet combinations as I want to stretch it out some more to 1000-1200 Yds.

[usherj]

http://www.lapua.com/upload/downloads/brochures/lapua308winpalmacase2010.pdf
The first paragraph gives a good summary of the 308's history.
Many LR shooters using the 308 use the Sierra Match King 155g (2156) with Varget and either the CCI BR-2 or Fed 210M. Varget lots vary, but my current load is 46.3g for 3,000 fps. As usual, start lower and work up. However, many shooters also use heavier bullets (175-210) for LR, but I have nopersonal experience to share on that.
Here is some more info: http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
Hope this helps.

[the jigger]

There is no doubt that the 308Win. has seen much use and an equal amount of success. However, IMHO your desire to reach out to 1000/1200 yds with something short of 50BMG requires something beyond the 308. My suggestion is the 6.5/284 and Berger VLD bullets. Savage currently offers such a rifle.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

[Hooker]

If you want put something in the 200 pound range down reliably past the 800 meters you'll find the .308 lacking some what.
But if you just want hit targets and make holes the 308 will suffice out to 1600 meters. That's not to say at longer ranges you would not be better served by a faster cartridge. Bullet drop and wind deflection are directly related to bullet flight time, ie faster bullets spend less time in these conditions and are effected less by them. Heavier bullets tend do better at long range at least that has been my experience. The faster rounds will handle these heavy weights better than the .308.  Not trying to steer you away from the .308 at all, it's my favorite cartridge. I'm just laying out its limitations which if you take the time learn are very few. The older I get the more I appreciate cartridges that get the job done without whoopin on my body. That keeps the .308 high on my list.

Pat                                                                                                           

[LanceR]

spitpatch, the NRA looks at long range being 800 yards or over.  Most long range matches are either 1,000 yard matches (iron sights or any sight) or are Palma matches which are shot at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards with an iron sighted .308 and a maximum bullet weight of 155 grains.  The 1,000 yard matches are usually 20 shots for record in 20 minutes with a sighting shot period first.  The Palma matches allow unlimited sighters at 800 yards but no sighters at 900 or 1,000 yards.

Note that all firing is done at known distances and at paper targets so residual energy and looping trajectories are not an issue.  308 target loads for 1,000 yard shooting have a highest point in the trajectory more than 20 feet above the line of sight.  If you are shooting known distances the trajectory is not an issue but for unknown distances it puts a huge premium on the ability to accurately determine the range under field conditions.  In any case shooting at that distance puts a big premium on accurately calling the wind and reacting to what the wind is doing all the way to the target.

I know of no .308 load that is going to be supersonic at 1,200 yards.  Maybe someone else does and can chime in but you'll likely face some stability issue when the bullet goes trans-sonic.

To find a starting point for comparison you can push a 155 grain MatchKing to around 3000 FPS in a hot load.  At 1,000 yards on a 60 degree day near sea level it will have right around 300" of drop and in a 10 MPH full value wind it will be blown about 115".   

A 190 grain MatchKing can be pushed to around 2600 FPS in a hot load.  At 1,000 yards it drops around 355" and is blown about 103" by the same wind.

Both bullets are borderline supersonic.  The lighter bullet has only about 12" more windage but has 50" less drop.  For paper punching I'd go with (and have done) the lighter bullet which kind of flies in the face of most folks thinking.

As food for thought, one cartridge often overlooked for long rage shooting is the 264 Winchester Magnum.  It can launch a 140 grain MatchKing at 3,000 FPS that will still be borderline supersonic at 1,300 yards.  For an accurate comparison the 1,000 yards figures are around 280" of drop and about 82" of windage.  As can be readily seen it has a big advantage over the .308, especially in unknown distance shooting, and in regular use the only real cost difference is going to be the extra 15 or so grains of powder per shot and the possibly shorter brass life.  I've never built a 264 Win Mag but did do a lot of long range shooting with a 30-338 Win Mag.  I used to retire brass after about 5-6 uses and I'd expect the 264 (based on the same case) to last about as long.

Are you looking for something off the shelf or at having a rifle built?

Lance

[Catfish]

You young guy just don`t understand. The reason the the 308 was used for alot of shooting at Camp Perry was simply because it was the round our military was useing. Befor we went to the M-14 the round of choice was the 30-06, the round fired by the Grand and the old -03.

[eye shot]

Ya looking at youtube the old 03-06 & 8mm K98 did real good at 1000yds.

[poncaguy]

saw  on the 6BMR site, a 243 won a long range match.................go to that site and click on 243 on the left sidebar

[spitpatch]

      Thanks for the tips guys......WOW....you guys can lay a lot of intel down in a very short period of time. I was looking for an off the shelf gun, nothing fancy, with ammo readily available. Something that would kill at those ranges.....say as big as a deer.
     
       I have a Remington 700 BDL custom deluxe in 25-06 that would hurl a bullet to those ranges but doubtful it would still have any punch and I'm not sold on a .308 either, hence my question.
 
      What common round could get the job done yet still leave my shoulder relatively intact. My shooting buddie was shooting a Rem. model 770 in 30-06 with surprising accuracy. The 25-06 is big a little gun as I have right now, less my Austrian Stg 58.
 
      The boys around here are just getting in to long range shooting/hunting and so far it's been a hoot. I have presses and dies for most common cartridges although I've not shot many of them. My hunting mainstays are .243 and 25-06. Defensive/offensive are .223,308, and 50 BMG.
 
      I don't mind a little recoil but don't want any retinal detachment and I figure I'd get the best advice on the planet......right here. You guys are awesome!
 
 

[Lloyd Smale]

If your looking to PUT DOWN deer at 800 yards nothing, well maybe a 50bmg. At 800 yards even the bullet out of a 300 ultra mag isnt traveling that fast and isnt going to deck deer. If you back your range off to 500 yards which is the absolute longest shot id personaly take on a living animal then id start with the 7mags and probabalbly step up to a 300 mag. With a standard round like a 308/06/2506 about 400 is the max your going to actually drop deer consistantly and even then your eventually going to do some tracking. 800 yard shots on living things are the realm of experienced snippers. Even the most skilled shooters that dont have profesional training have no business poking away at living animals at that kind of a range. Ive killed probably more deer at 4-500 yards here then most and consider myself a fair shot but also realize that to pull it off all the stars have to be aligned. I wont do it without a rock steady rest on a calm day if i dont have a proper gun and load that day i pass. Many Many times ive had the cross hairs on deer out past 400 yards and said bang and put the gun down.

[Mikey]

Spitpatch:  'bout the only reason I can think of for the 308 being used for so long is because it was a military caliber, and they probably made so many bullets for the old 06 that they just stuffed them into 308 cases and tricked the Marines into thinking it was match or sniper ammo (lol). 
 
And as far as the 308 being used for long range competition - this will blow your mind - the 308 took a back seat to both the 303 British and the 30-06 at the Wimbleton 1,000 matches and the 30-06 even lost out to the 303 Brit until someone came up with a 190 gn match slug for the 06, which may also have been put to use in the 308.  Most sniper/match loads for the 30-06 and 308 used a 173 gn spbt bullet at 2650'/sec for the 06 and 2550'/sec for the 308.
 
Will you be using this for long range paper, or metallic silhouette?  I think that if youwant to shoot whitetail you may need a heavier caliber bullet to carry on through.  HTH.

[LanceR]

The general consensus of the arms and ammunition industry and of a lot of knowledgeable sportsmen is that a bullet properly designed for the purpose and delivered to the heart/ling area with 800 or so pounds of energy will cleanly harvest deer sized game.  The 155 grain GameKing .308 Win load will get to around 700 yards with that much energy.  The 180 grain one will stretch that to about 800 yards. 

The 7mm Rem Mag with 140 or 150 grain bullets will get that energy to 700-750 yards.  The 264 Win Mag load I mentioned yesterday will get you to a bit over 800 yards.  A 180 grain GameKing out of a 30-06 at 2,800 FPS will reach over 900 yards and a 200 grain one at 2,600 FPS will get to about 950.

A 180 grain GameKing launched from a 300 Win Mag at the high end velocity of 3,000 FPS will carry 800 pounds of wallop to 1,000 yards.

The 300 Weatherby shines with heavy for caliber bullets and will send a 200 grain GameKing at 2950 FPS to about 1,150 yards with the required energy but you had better be handloading since loaded ammo is in the nosebleed price range.

For additional perspective, your 25-06 will only carry that much power to a bit over 500 yards regardless of load.

In any case you'd need to call your bullet manufacturer to see if the pill is going to properly expand at those terminal velocities.  FWIW, the 155 grain .308 load is moving about 1,170 FPS at 1,000 yards ant the speedster 300 Weatherby is at about 1,500 FPS.  In short, in terms of power and proper functioning, you're asking a lot to be able to cleanly take a deer at those ranges.

All this is academic if the ability to very accurately determine distance, call the wind and apply the necessary corrections is lacking.  The heart/lung area of most any legal deer starts at about 10" in diameter.  What is the longest range at which you are comfortable in being able to put the vast majority of your shots into that sized target under all the variable conditions in the field?  Add in the simple fact that deer move a lot and it becomes a real challenge. 

From 800 to 1,200 yards all of these loads are dropping between 25 and 30 feet.  That hot 155 grain .308 load drops 65" from 800 to 900 yards.  At 800 yards a 15 yard error in calling the range or windage at 10 MPH will result in a missed or wounded deer and that's assuming a perfect shot with a significantly sub-MOA load.  And remember, the 1,000 yard time of flight for all these loads is in the 1.5 second range and a lot can happen downrange in that time.

Lance

[smokehouserex]

 
 
  Hello spitpatch:
  I too have done some long range shooting but nothing over 6-700 yds. Most was done in the navy with 30-06, nothing fancy just a lot of fun. Paper punching can be done with almost any caliber with a great deal of success.
  Shooting deer ect. is another bag of tricks. I have used the 06,338,300wby.and the 264 for long range hunting but have not harvested anything over 600yds.  You have been given a lot of good info by the fellow GBO Members, not that I consider myself to be an expert on this matter but I do have a little experience on the subject, Therefore, IMO, I would consider a bull-gun with a 30" bbl, chambered in one of the Mag. calibers, preferably at least a 7mm rem.mag, but one of the hotter 30 or 8mmrem mag or 338mags and the weight will keep recoil down. If you want to shoot anything over about 300 yds. with any hint of consistancy you will have to have a good rest, so size and weight will not matter. There are a good number of long range shooters around so I would get in with a club and learn from the experts. Just my opinion.
  Good shooting
  HM
 

[usherj]

http://handloads.com/calc/
Now that you mentioned hunting, the 7mmRem Mag may be your most economical bet. Moving the 175g partition (having the highest BC of any partition at .519) at 3,000fps, you would have enough energy out to 950y for deer sized game (assuming 900 ft lbs minimum). Yes, you will have some recoil to contend with. Less if you have a heavier gun. That being said, this type of endeavor is really LR shooting, not LR hunting. Remember, at live game you don't get any sighters. Game animals deserve more respect and consideration. It takes years of practice to develop the wind/mirage reading skills to deliver a proper shot at those ranges. Most people fucus on the elevation issue, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. Horizontal shot dispersion will really contribute to lots of wounded game. Sticking to iron targets would be more fun and responsible. Or get started with f-class and work your way up to unsupported prone shooting if you really want to have a ball.

[spitpatch]

       Thanks guys for all the very useful information. Each and every one of you had very valid points and very good sense. It's very nice to have all this wealth of knowledge given free of charge.
 
       I talked to some buddies at work today that will lend me a 30-06, 7Mag, and a 300WM to try them out before I make a choice. Great guys! The problem I see is the ammo cost for the 300WM and 7MM Mag is about the same for what I reload my 50 BMG's for.
 
       I also agree that the ethical harvesting of animals is of the utmost importance, but would like a rifle that would take a "deer sized" animal at that range. I believe that having a long range rifle and being adept with it, is as important as having one of those nasty black guns and being good with it also, as with handguns.\
 
       I've been studying at reading wind, mirage, etc and am getting pretty good with my 50 up to and including 800 yds. and can make consistant head shots at that range on torso targets, just wanting a smaller gun to do it with. As for killing animals at ANY range....if I have to wonder if I can make the shot....I don't.
 
       I've got a pretty good rangefinder so not much guessing there, it's the cross wind that presents most of my challenge although the majority of my first shots are within the 10" of where I want to be. The 500 yd. or less isn't much of a challenge, it's out past that where it gets kinda' tricky.....and fun.
 
       
 

[Lloyd Smale]

If you think that 500 yard deer shooting isnt a challange your either a much better shot then i am or you havent done much of it. Shooting off a bench at paper is a completely differnt world then shoot live animals from field positions and keeping it together well enough to dope wind and having complete control over your trigger. Im sure no military sniper grade shooter but ive done it for years and get the job done. Ive watched over the years many people doing it and maybe one in 50 is really capable of getting it done reliably at even 400 yards let alone 500. Keep in mind how much time and money the military puts into getting a sniper to hit at those ranges and even with the fact that the me they trained are allready hand picked guys that are exceptional to start with and half of them wash out. How would any hunter think that he was capable of it with an out of the box gun and some factory ammo and no training.

[SHOOTALL]

when you get down to selecting a long range rifle the other componets are as important. Brass will need to be better than off the shelf rem, fed or winchester . The cost of good long range brass will have a much higher price tag and about 3 loadings in many cases will be the norm for really tight groups and only certain rounds come in this better brass. Reamers for the chamber only certain rounds have match reamers made for them. So when you pick a rifle and want to be inimical look at all other cost. Dies and other tools for long range ammo production is several times the cost of standard equipment. Your scope will be in the $1500.00   range your base and rings will go into the $100.00's if you want to really be consistant.
A round that fits in the above and enjoys the selection of 30 cal. match bullets is the 300 win. mag.
I would suggest looking on line for info on shooting F class matches to get some good advice.
To shoot game much past 400 yards the shooter and gun need to be almost perfect. It can and is done but not always done well. If you know shooting you know the relative small miss calculation in yardage at 500 yards and beyond that translates to enough bullet drop to miss a kill zone on a deer. The wind is quite another obstacle to over come. No matter the scope , cal. rifle or ammo the shooter must be able to over come all this often in seconds. Saying you sight in once a year and can do it , well that dog won't hunt.

[spitpatch]

    You fellers are making way, way to many assumptions. I never said I never shot a rifle before and I am one of the very best shooters in these ozark hills.
 
     I demand precision from every gun I own or it gets wheels put under it, and I've been reloading for 35 years and will not tolerate anything but  precision. I'm very quick at mathematics and have been good at caculating wind for many years.
 
     I can regularly make kill shots at 3,4,500 yards (pay attention here) but shoot a 25-06. I just wanted a little bigger projectile to strech out there farther with some poop left when it gets there. Mainly I hunt with a .243 unless I go for p-dogs, then the 25-06 goes along.
 
      As for having to pay 1000's of dollars for a scope and 1000's of dollars for a rifle to make these shots........thats the dog that won't hunt. My rem.700's with the leo's & nikons get way out there accurately as long as I do my part.
 
     If I remember correctly, Carlos Hathcock made kill shots out to 1200 yds and beyond with his own Win. model 70 with a 10 power scope that he had sent from home. (his personal hunting rifle)
 
     Also, My Barrett 50 BMG has a straight 10 power Bushnell Elite 3200 (from the factory) sitting on top of it and I can smack 800 yrd targets on down with the overwhelming majority of them 1st round kills. Just a little simple math, good rangefinder, and knowing the bullet trajectory and wind. I do not compete.......just have fun. I take a lot of pride and care in my handloads too.\
 
      I'm not trying to hit a dime at these ranges, rather a paper plate. You guys are reading way to much into my post. I may never have to shoot a "deer size" (read between the lines) animal at that range but would like to be able to.
 
      I've been shooting for so long it's become boring and just want to do something different. I recently purchased a Ruger Mk II competition .22 pistol to squirrel hunt with because rifles have no challenge any more, and can hit them at 50 yds. with iron sights, now thats fun! same rule applies......If I have to wonder about the shot.....I don't shoot.
 
     I'm not some jackroot that just woke up yesterday and said to myself "hey, lets get a gun and shoot 800 yds" I've been shooting for 40 years, reloading for 35, an have been blessed with a gift with guns and shooting and have been shooting long distance for some time, it just time to progress a little farther.
 
      I'm kinda' ashamed to admit I don't own an '06 or bigger little gun, but just never had the need for one until now. Didn't need the Barrett, but was on the bucket list of guns to have, so one year the stars aligned and the wife got new leather furniture......I got a Barrett.
     
     I got a good wife too!
 
     
 
     

[243dave]

Spitpatch, check out LongRangeHunting.com  These guys are serious about long range and will give you lots to read.
 
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

[Bugflipper]

 The 308 has no trouble punching paper at the ranges you want. Not a whole lot of energy that far out though. I imagine you are going to have to compromise since you want enough energy to kill past a half mile. To me compromise means a deduction in accuracy by going to a magnum. I will try to explain my mindset:




With magnums, that I know of none  come from the factory with match chambers.
 A short fat case is always more inherently accurate than a long one.
 Some magnums are free-bore. If you reload for accuracy you know what setting just off the lands does. Free-bore requires the bullet to make a big jump before it contacts rifling. Generally magnums come from the factory with a 2" longer barrel than a standard caliber. I shot 6 mm br for a good while. We always wanted large diameter short barrels to reduce harmonics and in turn groups. 2" may not sound like much but a fellow shot with a 14" sbr for a season and the rest of us had 16" barrels. He striped our butts. There was so much whining and complaining because some of the states didn't allow sbr, they rewrote the rules the next year to 16" or longer. The same fellow wasn't even in the top half with a 16" barrel.
 Recoil is another factor. A lot of fellows that shoot magnums without some sort of a gun vise off a bench unknowingly develop a flinch. I am an instructor for different leo courses. A few of them involve precision rifles. 90% of the guys that come through instinctively close their eyes as they pull the trigger. Most of them also instinctively twitch a little, or a lot, anticipating the recoil when a dummy shell is put in. It takes quite a bit to get them to quit doing it. Most of the time their rifle at home is to much for them, but they would never admit it. In many cases it's not even a magnum.


I don't mean to imply that a magnum can not be accurate. Just saying that if it were possible to have two identical rifles with ammo tailored to them. The short fat standard cartridge would be inherently more accurate than a long fat magnum. Maybe just by a tiny bit, but at 1000-1200 yards a tiny bit turns into quite a bit. That's before even considering environmental conditions, terrain, unseen obstacles, stress, excitement, cold limbs, the lack of a bench,,,etc.

[Lloyd Smale]

first ill say you and I arent Carlos Hathcock. Thats like saying im a pretty good car driver so i can do what Jimmy Johnson does. Also a military snipes job is to kill the enemy and theres not much thought given to the fact that he shoots the leg off of one other then the fact hed rather of killed him. Hunting animals is a bit different. You owe it to them to kill them cleanly.
 Secondly much ado is given to the short fat case theroy but i just havent seen it in real life. Lots of long range competions have been won by 300 win mags. If your going to want some velocity to really reach out there every fps counts and short mags just dont give that much advantage over rounds like the 06. I think true long range guns start at about the power level of a 300 win mag and the power of even that at 800 yards is pretty marginal.
  then you have to look for extreamly consistant and accurate bullets and that usually means match bullets which are just not good hunting bullets. You MIGHT get by with something like a sierra prohunter or a nos bt but at 800 yards i doubt it.
   Next comes optics. Most over the counter scopes wont cut it out that far. They just dont have enough ajustment to them and the ajustments just are precise enough or repeatable enough for 800-1000 yard shooting. thats why youlll see most guys that are serious about shooting at those ranges have high dollar scopes like nightforces ect. So even if all the stars are aligned and you luckly and i mean luckly find an off the shelf gun capable of it your scope probably isnt
    I hate to lecture people about shooting game. I really feel that how a guy hunts is his own business but shooting live animals at 800 yards is over the edge. Its a stunt. The only thing to gain is bragging rights and your certainly not going to impress anyone that really knows. Keep your shooting to 500 yards and hone your skills to the point you can tell people that youve shot 10 deer in a row at 500 yards and dumped them in there tracks. Now that would impress me!
   Now if all you want to do is shoot targets at that range have at it. Ive done it alot and its fun. You can laugh off a bad shot and theres not a deer running off to die an agonizing death.

[SHOOTALL]

Pay attention spitpatch , scopes for the range you are talking about cost more they have more adjustment and it cost more to get it . If you want to use a lesser expensive scope you need to use a base with 20 to 30 degree elevation made into it and they cost more. So you may need these for your dog to hunt in this game. A good range finder would help also. At 1000 yards you may have several cross winds comming from different directions math ? experince yep ! lots of trigger time 
 

[bajabill]

Im confused, is the question in regard to long range shooting, long range hunting, or long range shooting with a gun that could be used for long range hunting if all that extra baggage was handled at a later time?  Also, some of the remedial advice is because the original question is somewhat remedial.  Just my observation, take it constructively.
 
For long range shooting, use the 308 since it has the military link that makes it cool.
 
For long range hunting use always look for high BC bullets, and then the difference between 800, 1000, and 1200 yards becomes quite the issue.  You can get by with a lot less power at 800 but you are in a transition region where longer distances are going to require more starting power.  If it is 1200, and you are recoil sensitive (you need to define that for yourself) you may need a brake on the gun to get what you will need.  I would be looking at any of the RUMs, and probably leaning towards the 338 caliber to bring a heavier bullet.  I think this is why so many are doing well with the SMKs and Bergers (very high BC), because if you start with a 250 or 300 gr bullet, it doesnt have to hold up as well as a 140 gr bullet.
 
The reason 1500 dollar scopes are used is because the guys shooting at game at these distances are probably not utilizing hold over.  They are accurately ranging the animal, looking at an application on thier phone that tells them how many clicks to move their scope, and have the confidence that they will put that much elevation into the scope, and back again.  At 800 yards, if you correctly adjusted your zero, the bullet can be dropping nearly 3 inches every 10 yards.  Hence the need for another high dollar range finder.

[Rock Home Isle]

Hi All,
      I have a question about the .308 round that I'm sure someone can answer. Why was the .308 used for so long, as the long range competition round at camp perry matches?
      I'll cut to the chase. I'm looking for a gun/bullet combination for long range shooting at 800 Yd plus. I shoot a Barrett 50BMG at these ranges, but the cost of ammo is starting to be a factor. I'm looking for something with tolerable recoil and a decent punch.
      My brother shoots a .308 bolt gun and I'm hopeful that one of you Marines can tell me about the .308 round and why it was the "shooters choice" for long range. Should I be looking for something different for long range? Please tell me about good rifle/bullet combinations as I want to stretch it out some more to 1000-1200 Yds.

There are a few guys that are still shooting at the extreme ranges with the .308 Winchester...most of these shooters are using the 180 gr HPBT while others are using the 190 gr HPBT. But realize that the .308 is at best a 700 yard or 800 yard cartridge. At that range the projectile tends to go subsonic and becomes unstable. The .308 gained a lot of fame in the shooting community as it was quickly found to more accurate than its parent catridge, the .30-06, and thus it spawned several other carttridges that also shared in the .308's inherent accuracy such as the .243 and the 7mm-08.
 
There is a significant group of shooters that use the .300 Winchester Magnum with the same 180 gr/190 gr projectiles and are doing great at the ranges that you are speaking about...ie 1000 to 1200 yards...as the projectile will tend to stay supersonic to about 1200 yards +/-. The .300 WSM been shown to be a very accurate catridge, but due to the case design, projectiles above 180 gr tend to fall way short of the performance of the .300 Mag.
 
I would sugest that you consider the .338 Lapua. This was designed to fill the gap betwen the .308 Winchester/.300 Winchester Magnum and the .50 BMG as a sniping round. There are documented instances of the Lapua round being able to hit man-sized targets out to 1 mile. TAC TV recently produced an episode on this cartridge and were able to replicate this feat. If you reload, you should be able to shoot a Lapua for less than a BMG, but not as cheaply as a .308 Winchester or even a .300 Magnum.

[1911crazy]

The 338cal laupa is an up and comming round used maily by the britt's in the sand box as a sniper caliber.    I have found my '94 remington 700 in 338win mag to be a one holer at 100yds benchrested using over the counter new winchester 338wm 225gr psp ammo(pointed soft point).   Other owners of the 338cal rifles have sworn by the accuracy of the 225gr bullets just for a heads up on the 338.
In the sand box there using the 308win sniper rifles using the 175gr FMJBT which i may work up a load for my M14 soon.  I think the 175gr round just maybe a smoother running bullet at the longer distances.  Each caliber has its sweet spot for bullet weight.
Since some of you guys have the camp perry info I been wondering how good the Swiss K31 straight bolt rifles are doing??   The 7,5mm swiss GP 11 174gr fmj ammo is equal to a match grade ammo quality wise.   I have heard nothing but great things about there accuracy so far. Since there 30cal i been planning on trying some 175gr FMJBT sniper bullets in my k31 someday.
If my arthritis and old age wasn't creeping up on me lately i would of loved to give the long range shooting a shot or two.  I wish i did it when i was younger.  I'm no pro but i can hold my own for sure. 
I just got into the 308 round and lately i have noticed the 308/7,62 nato/ball ammo has been either 145gr or 147gr FMJ bullets while the 30-06 has been 150gr FMJ bullets in the surplus ammo.
With the 264 win mag round its a very fast round and rumor has it, it has a very early or short barrel life do to its speed.

[RaySendero]

.....
     Also, My Barrett 50 BMG has a straight 10 power Bushnell Elite 3200 (from the factory) sitting on top of it and I can smack 800 yrd targets on down with the overwhelming majority of them 1st round kills. Just a little simple math, good rangefinder, and knowing the bullet trajectory and wind.
.....

 
spit, I've read all this thread and still don't "Get-It".
 
If you want to punch paper at 800-1,200, why not just buy a target rifle?
 
If you want to deer hunt at those distances, why not just use the 50 BMG?

[jabey9210]

Ok here we go Spit.  I shoot a 7mm WSM it is s pretty much a custom gun I had a savage 30-06 that I've had for about 15 years and this is what I've done to it and the cost New 27" barrel $270,  New ross feather weight thumb hole stock $100,  I was lucky enough to work the original trigger down to about 1.5 lbs..  I use a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50mm with a 30mm tube scope that is very accurate and very consistent when spinning turrets cost $375.  Where it is a 30 mm tube I also have enough adjustment with it to shoot a mile, I have yet to do so but never the less it has enough adjustment.  So for around $750 you can get a very accurate long range gun.  Now I shoot 180gr berger vlds out of regular old winchester brass they fly at exactly 3000 fps and I am on my 6th reload  with this brass.  I am getting .5" at 200 yrd 3 shot groups as long as I do my part.  Now for performance,  sighted in dead on at 200 yards it drops 215 inches at 1,000 yrds and drifts 45 inches while still retaining 1450 foot pound of energy.  At 1500 yrds it still has 850 foot pounds of energy. Which is by my figuring not even a comparison with a .308 or just about any 30 caliber bullet but that's a whole nother discussion.  I can consistantly bang steel at 1,000 yrds all day as long as I get the wind right and this configuration has no more recoil than the it did when it was a  synthetic 30-06.  I killed my bull elk this year at 625 yrds with it one shot bang flop.  I hope this helped with your original question

[spitpatch]

         Thanks jabey9210, good information! Got a guy gonna' trade me a Rem 700 bdl custom deluxe 30-06 for my Win. model 70 featherweight .243, as I am a big rem.700 fan, I think this gun will do for starters.......now onto optics.
 
          I will look into the Vortex scope, It sounds like what I'm looking for. I've been going almost blind researching optics. The guys on the optics board have been giving me a lot to look at. Thanks again!

[SHOOTALL]

Which is by my figuring not even a comparison with a .308 or just about any 30 caliber bullet but that's a whole nother discussion. 
 
 
Guess you haven't checked out 300 Web Mag. 300 RUM or even a 300 win short mag.
I just read where the military is converting the 308 bolt guns to 300 win mag ( the guns were org. made to have that option guess they were long action to start with ? ) . Your 7mm seems very hot what bbl life do you expect ?