Long range rifle/bullet question

[jabey9210]

My load is actually not very hot I have no pressure signs and I only have to trim my cases every other reload and even then they are barely over saami specs.  The only thing I meant by comparison between the 30 cal and the 7mm is that for instance the 7mm 180 bergers have a b.c. of .659 in a 30 cal you can't come close to that b.c. until you reach at least 210 grains.  So that's what I mean in the same weight the 7mm is a far superior bullet.  And if you compare a 300 wsm with a 7mm wsm you will find that in the same weight of bullet the 300 takes on average 3 grains of powder more to push the bullet the same speed as the 7mm wsm .  If you step up in weight so you have the same b.c the 30 cal will end up at least 300 fps slower and with that you end up with less energy from the start and it just gets worse the farther the bullet travels.  So as far as I'm concerned there is no comparison between a 30 cal and a 7mm.

[usherj]

Jabey has done his homework. As far as barrel life is concerned, I would say it would be less than the 308 (4,000 to 5,000) but more than any of the hot 6.5s(1,200 if you're lucky). The 7mm is a great compromise between the two in terms of recoil and barrel life and now with the new Bergers it looks like a real winner.  Many target shooters are now going back to the 284 for this reason.
 

[SHOOTALL]

I have to ask the reasoning of "same weight" in different bore sizes ? Most know the bigger heavy bullet will give better preformance at longer range , ie; the 50 BMG , 338 LM and the new Barett loadings address this giving longer range. The 300 win mag can almost keep up with the 338 LM's usefulness when the 338LM is restricted to 200 gr bullets and the heavest for the 300WM are used but bump the 338 up to 250 gr bullets and it leaves the 300 in the dust similar to the 300 mags leaving the 7mm guns. This is not a cut of any cal. as they all have a useful range .

[jabey9210]

Ok then compare any 30 caliber to it's 7mm counter part like say the 300 rum and the 7mm rum gettting 3300 fps out of 180 bergers.  Lets take say the 210 bergers for the 300 rum shooting at 3100 fps which I think are real world speeds for the two cartridges.  muzzle energy is 4500 lbs for the 300 and 4350 for the 7mm.  Now at 500 yards it's 2850 lbs for the 300 and 2900 fps for the 7mm.  Then move to 1,000 yards and 1763 for the 300 and 1840 for the 7mm.  Now correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that even with different weight of bullets the 7mm is still superior to the 30 cal.  Now even if you step up the the 240 grain Sierra Match Kings which fly at around 2900 fps out of the 300 Rum at 1000 yards you're at 1750 lbs of energy compared to the 1840 lbs of energy of the 7mm.  So any way you slice it the 7mm will always out perform the 30 cal of the same parent case.  I punched the numbers into 300 WSM's and 7mm WSM's and get the same results  as with the .280 and 30-06.   Now I'm not saying the 30 cal is not a good caliber I shot a 30-06 for most of my life all I am stating is that the 7mm is superior to the 30 caliber no matter how you try to figure it the 30 caliber just doesn't have the ballistics that a 7mm has.

[Lloyd Smale]

what your failing to factor in in this comparision is if your actually killing something the heavier 308 bullets if equaly constructed are going to be heavier and probably penetrate game at long range better and will have a bigger frontal area. I love both the 300 mags and the 7mags but in my experience a 300 mag allways hits a bit harder at any range. Like it most cases with guns math doesnt tell the whole story.

[SHOOTALL]

In reality a 7 mm rem mag is about a 30-06 in the field.

[Rock Mill Armory]

I have been reading all the replys to your question on the .308, - If it can rag doll a 200 # 2 legged animal @ 1200 Yds, sure can handle a deer. Just spend more time shooting & less time reading the internet. Perfect practice makes perfect. Once you get the feel for conditions and are able to read them as they happen you can stay on the bubble. As far as needing Expensive optics, check out SWFA's fixed power Super Sniper scope line. They do fall off a bit in low light, but are right there with the $1500 dollar jobs in every other respect for $300 bucks. The BBL life on the .308 is good & way better than the mag. rifles.,less expensive to shoot & most important affords practice.
I have been doing this for a long time, email me or check out my web site... rockmillarmory.com   & will be happy to help.
 

[mrbigtexan]

i say a 168 gr. berger vld out of a 7mm mag, wsm, or saum is the best all around long range hunting rifle. they are killing elk at 1000+ with this cartridge. it wont beat you up too bad either.

[Lloyd Smale]

that depends. If your talking something like elk and deer sized game at 200 yards yes. If your talking deer or about anything else and the ranges are out 300 or better the 7mag has allways seemed to hit harder for me. I shoot alot of deer way out there and the guns that have become my favorites for doing it are the 257wby 264 mag 7mag and various 300 mags. You can argue till your blue in the face with me about all a guy needs is standard rounds like the 308,o6,270 ect but if you hunting where your going to take shots at 300 or more yards the mags leave the standard rounds in the dust for quick killing. Im not so dumb as to say an o6 wont take care of  business even at 400 yards but it just doesnt do it with the authority that the mags do. Im not one that likes to chase after deer that ran off. I shoot enough deer every year that a lb or two of wasted meat is no concern and theres some nights i will shoot up to 5 deer and id be up all night if i had to chase them all. Plus i feels its my obligation to them to insure a quick and painless death. If im hunting where shots will defineatley not  be past 250 or maybe even 300 yards i may take a standard cartridge like the 06,280,2506 ect but when the going gets tough the mags take over. 

In reality a 7 mm rem mag is about a 30-06 in the field.

[SHOOTALL]

checking the winchester load data it seems a 175 gr 7mm bullet goes around 2650 fps on the high end where a 30-06 175 gr bullet highest is 2661 fps. With all respect thats same in my book. If all deer you shot were same in every way and shot placement was in the exact same place at the same distance then their reaction could prove alot but as anyone knows the influnces that cause a shot deer to react are many and it is unreliable to expect others to have the same experince as you have had . I don't doubt what you experinced in any way I have my favorites also. Quite honest at short range I would expect the 30 cal. to do better . Also consider the 7mm bullet selection stops at 175 where the 30 cal. goes to 220 gr. One could expect the use of a heavier bullet in the 30-06 would give better preformance at longer range.
I would also note that the snipers in our military use 30 cal. or larger . I would expect if a 7mm bullet was better they would field it.
I have 3 pet cal's 300 wm , 25-06 and 7X30 waters so I don't have dog in the fight or anything aginst the 7mm it is a good round . Its just some magnums only duplicate standard preformance , MARKETING its called.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not arguing for a minute that the 06 is a weekling or that its not versitile. But for long range shooting a 140-160 grain 7mm bullet has a better sectional density then a comparable weight 30 cal bullet and theres no arguing that a 7mag will push a 150 faster then an 06 will. As to comparing 175 7mm bullets i dont think ive loaded a 100 of them in my life in any 7mm. If i want a bullet that heavy its time to step up to a 300 mag. Same goes for the 06 at my house. I shoot 150-165s in it and if i step up to a 180 its going to be in a 300 mag. Ive probably chased more wounded deer shot with 180 grain 06s then every other load combined. Its a real popular combo up here and lots of guys shoot them. Problem is alot of the 180s are constructed a bit tougher because they do have to hold up to 300 mag velocitys and dont expand enough in my book to deck deer. Now before im jumped on because someones used 180s all there life and has killed many deer ill say this. I too have shot and killed deer with that combo but i dont EVER remember one dropping in its tracks. Thats the differnce in me then in many. I shoot upwards of 50 deer a year and want them DEAD RIGHT NOW. I do shoot more deer then most guys shoot in there lifetime every year so i think ive got a pretty good handle on what works and what doesnt. As to every deer being at a differnt range and angle ive shot enough at about every range and angle that i think i can make an educated statement on the effectiveness of certain loads and guns. Now ### happens and ive shot deer with a 300 weatherby mag using 165s at 200 yards and that my friends is a load that will about cut a whitetail in half and wont sit here and tell you each and every deer shot with that load dropped on the spot. I will say though that they sure didnt get out of sight. Ive also shot deer that had there entire insides blown to hell to the point it was all liquid and had them go 50 yards like that. Some deer you just cant explain. But id bet my advice at least holds true 90 percent of the time. Also illl add one last thing. Your velocity for the 180 grain o6 load is about spot on in my experience but you can easily add 200 fps on to that 7 mag velocity you stated. At least out of my guns with my loads. 2850 is very doable with a 7mag using 175s

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill add this about the grand old 06. Its a killing sob if the range doesnt stretch must past 300 yards and youve choosen the right bullet for the job. Biggest mistake i see is some guy on the internet will recomend 180 grain bullets for it and even then if the RIGHT bullet is choose it will do fine. Bullets like seirras or nos bts will get the job done. But most inexperienced hunters think they need the newest and greatest premium bullet because some yeahoo says there the best thing since sliced bread so he goes out and buys a box of barnes tsx, speer grand slams or one of the new bonded bullets. I can about guarantee you if you make that mistake youd best brush up on your tracking skills. Because eventually your going to make a good shot and watch a deer run off into the next 40. Premium bullets are great bullets in mags that carry enough velocity or to take animals bigger then a guy would normaly take with a certain caliber but there NOT whitetail bullets.

[SHOOTALL]

Im not arguing for a minute that the 06 is a weekling or that its not versitile. But for long range shooting a 140-160 grain 7mm bullet has a better sectional density then a comparable weight 30 cal bullet and theres no arguing that a 7mag will push a 150 faster then an 06 will.(once more winchesters loading data 7mm 150 gr 2913 fps and 3006 150 gr 2856 would a deer reall know ? ) As to comparing 175 7mm bullets i dont think ive loaded a 100 of them in my life in any 7mm. If i want a bullet that heavy its time to step up to a 300 mag. Same goes for the 06 at my house. I shoot 150-165s in it and if i step up to a 180 its going to be in a 300 mag. Ive probably chased more wounded deer shot with 180 grain 06s then every other load combined. Its a real popular combo up here and lots of guys shoot them. Problem is alot of the 180s are constructed a bit tougher because they do have to hold up to 300 mag velocitys and dont expand enough in my book to deck deer. Now before im jumped on because someones used 180s all there life and has killed many deer ill say this. ( not jumping on ya honest but when a store here went out of business i got a bunch of Federal gold box 180 gr for the 300 win mag and they have worked just fine on our smallish deer)I too have shot and killed deer with that combo but i dont EVER remember one dropping in its tracks.I (I honestly don't remember one taking more than a step or three one in particular fliped over backwards , a shot well over 200 yards which is not the normal distance here) Thats the differnce in me then in many. I shoot upwards of 50 deer a year and want them DEAD RIGHT NOW. I do shoot more deer then most guys shoot in there lifetime every year so i think ive got a pretty good handle on what works and what doesnt. As to every deer being at a differnt range and angle ive shot enough at about every range and angle that i think i can make an educated statement on the effectiveness of certain loads and guns. Now ### happens and ive shot deer with a 300 weatherby mag using 165s at 200 yards and that my friends is a load that will about cut a whitetail in half and wont sit here and tell you each and every deer shot with that load dropped on the spot. I will say though that they sure didnt get out of sight. Ive also shot deer that had there entire insides blown to hell to the point it was all liquid and had them go 50 yards like that. Some deer you just cant explain. But id bet my advice at least holds true 90 percent of the time. Also illl add one last thing. Your velocity for the 180 grain o6 load is about spot on in my experience but you can easily add 200 fps on to that 7 mag velocity you stated. At least out of my guns with my loads. 2850 is very doable with a 7mag using 175s

I think we have both presented good infomation that others can look at and decide what they want but as I noted there isn't a deer that would know the difference and live to tell. It also points out there isn't alot of difference in alot of chamberings MARKETING once more.
 
I stayed with printed data from winchester no doubt some guns allow for more but then bbl errosion speeds up.
Then to at my age getting kicked hard is getting old fast !

[Lloyd Smale]

I just looked at aliant site and they got a max velocity for an 08 with a 180 at 2720 a 7mag with a 175 at 2888 and a 300 win mag with a 180 at 3050. So the spread between an 06 and a 7mag is just as much as the spread between a 7mag and a 300 mag. I guess if an 06 is just as powerful as a 7mag then a 7mag is as powerful as a 300 mag and wouldnt that make the o6 just as powerful as the 300mag? I know its a silly comparison but i hear it all the time and it seems like everytime a guy says hes using a certain caliber someone will come on and say he uses a smaller one and it does everything the bigger gun does.. Lots of guys will  claim theres no need to shoot a 300 mag as the 06 will do anything it will or my 308 is just as powerful as your 06. Well it isnt and never will and ill bet most of those self proclaimed experts hasnt killed more then a dozen deer with all there guns combined.  Another thing is for the most part loading data for all three of them is laughing low. Especially the mags. Id say most max loads listed for the 7mags and 300 mags are more like starting loads. Im not one to load so hot as to blow primers or screw up guns but if im loading a mag rifle its going to be loaded as a mag rifle. We can argue this till were blue in the face but just keep in mind i never badmouthed the old 06. Its one of my favorite calibers and i wouldnt be without a few of them in the safe. I just know its limitations.

[SHOOTALL]

I just looked at aliant site and they got a max velocity for an 08 with a 180 at 2720 a 7mag with a 175 at 2888 and a 300 win mag with a 180 at 3050. So the spread between an 06 and a 7mag is just as much as the spread between a 7mag and a 300 mag. I guess if an 06 is just as powerful as a 7mag then a 7mag is as powerful as a 300 mag and wouldnt that make the o6 just as powerful as the 300mag? I know its a silly comparison but i hear it all the time and it seems like everytime a guy says hes using a certain caliber someone will come on and say he uses a smaller one and it does everything the bigger gun does.. Lots of guys will  claim theres no need to shoot a 300 mag as the 06 will do anything it will or my 308 is just as powerful as your 06. Well it isnt and never will and ill bet most of those self proclaimed experts hasnt killed more then a dozen deer with all there guns combined. ( points well taken I would add bullet type would be a game changer also . AND we haven't pointed out that a 7mm bullet the same weight as a 308 cal. bullet (same bullet type of course) should penitrate deeper (smaller dia )and Another thing is for the most part loading data for all three of them is laughing low. Especially the mags. Id say most max loads listed for the 7mags and 300 mags are more like starting loads. Im not one to load so hot as to blow primers or screw up guns but if im loading a mag rifle its going to be loaded as a mag rifle. We can argue this till were blue in the face but just keep in mind i never badmouthed the old 06. Its one of my favorite calibers and i wouldnt be without a few of them in the safe. I just know its limitations.

Note also I have nothing aginst the 7 mm bullet shot them for years in an XP-100 in both 708 and 7BR

[bajabill]

Ok then compare any 30 caliber to it's 7mm counter part like say the 300 rum and the 7mm rum gettting 3300 fps out of 180 bergers.  Lets take say the 210 bergers for the 300 rum shooting at 3100 fps which I think are real world speeds for the two cartridges.  muzzle energy is 4500 lbs for the 300 and 4350 for the 7mm.  Now at 500 yards it's 2850 lbs for the 300 and 2900 fps for the 7mm.  Then move to 1,000 yards and 1763 for the 300 and 1840 for the 7mm.  Now correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that even with different weight of bullets the 7mm is still superior to the 30 cal.  Now even if you step up the the 240 grain Sierra Match Kings which fly at around 2900 fps out of the 300 Rum at 1000 yards you're at 1750 lbs of energy compared to the 1840 lbs of energy of the 7mm.  So any way you slice it the 7mm will always out perform the 30 cal of the same parent case.  I punched the numbers into 300 WSM's and 7mm WSM's and get the same results  as with the .280 and 30-06.   Now I'm not saying the 30 cal is not a good caliber I shot a 30-06 for most of my life all I am stating is that the 7mm is superior to the 30 caliber no matter how you try to figure it the 30 caliber just doesn't have the ballistics that a 7mm has.

 
You cant restrict the long range comparison to equal weight.  You could to do the comparison with equal sectional density which should get you close to equal BC for same construction bullets.  As you go up in diameter, you go up in weight, and up in recoil, that is where the payback is.   I read a paper by someone at Bergers where he was saying you also had to go up in length of bullet accordingly to keep everything proportional (volume is 3 dimensions and sectional density only accounts for the frontal area which is 2 dimensions) meaning higher sectional densities with the larger diameter to keep things equal.  His conclusion was that in a 30 cal, you needed over 220gr to be proportional to the heavy 7mm.
 
For the same parent case, if you neck it up and shoot the same weight bullet, I expect a higher muzzle velocity from the larger bore - assuming the correct powder and equal pressure limits.  Also, with the same cartidge, I usually get higher muzzle energy from heavier bullets.  You will never convice me that there is a single best bullet diameter where increasing it always results it lower performance and reducing it results in lower performance.  To say that a 7mm is better than a 30 because it is smaller means to me that you should convince yourself that a 6.5 is better yet. and so on and so on.  Try telling the real long range crowd that a 300rum is a better choice than a 338edge.

[Rock Mill Armory]

Wow guys all this science, how about angle of entry & point of aim? Trans-sonic disposition is just over 1200 yds on the good (.308) stuff, which I can't disclose. Angle of entry creates a energy bomb on a well placed shot.  The mag calipers afford less TOF, which translates into less condition effects & makes up for a small part of shooter error. The big stuff (.338 Lapua - 50BMG) just plain hit long & hard.... Just shoot what you like & know your limits in the field. No reason to listen to anyone than yourself and your abilities..best of luck..Larry

[SHOOTALL]

Well if you reall get into it then direction of shot matters with relation to the speed the earth turns and gravity at different points on the earth.

[jabey9210]

 
 
 
For the same parent case, if you neck it up and shoot the same weight bullet, I expect a higher muzzle velocity from the larger bore - assuming the correct powder and equal pressure limits. 

[smokehouserex]

 
 
   
  Normally a bullets effectiveness at long range is governed by several things, not just speed but also weight and  shape. Velocity is important but to get really long range effectiveness other things count also. Speed will decrease if it has little weight, weight, up to a point will hold up better at extended ranges.
  I don't remember exactly but I would think a 150/270 and a 150/30-06 at around 2900fps, the 270 would have the advantage at an extended range by a little bit at least on paper.  Like someone already said, paperwork don't kill the deer. It don't tell the whole story.
  HM

[jabey9210]

 
   
  Normally a bullets effectiveness at long range is governed by several things, not just speed but also weight and  shape. Velocity is important but to get really long range effectiveness other things count also. Speed will decrease if it has little weight, weight, up to a point will hold up better at extended ranges.
 

I agree 100%.  Because of weight is the reason the 338 RUM, Edge and the 50 BMG are so affective at long ranges.  The point I am trying to make is that in a perfect environment the 7mm will out perform the the 30 cal of the same parent case every time.  If you compare them in the same weight of bullet the 30 cal has a far less b.c so becomes less effective in both accuracy and energy at long ranges.  If you compare them in similar B.C.'s the 30 cal will be substantially heavier there for substantially slower and will have less energy and accuracy as the ranges increase because of the lack of velocity.  Like I said in the same parent cases like 300 WSM and & 7mm WSM,  or 300 RUM and 7mm Rum. 

You cant restrict the long range comparison to equal weight.  You could to do the comparison with equal sectional density which should get you close to equal BC for same construction bullets.  As you go up in diameter, you go up in weight, and up in recoil, that is where the payback is.   I read a paper by someone at Bergers where he was saying you also had to go up in length of bullet accordingly to keep everything proportional (volume is 3 dimensions and sectional density only accounts for the frontal area which is 2 dimensions) meaning higher sectional densities with the larger diameter to keep things equal.  His conclusion was that in a 30 cal, you needed over 220gr to be proportional to the heavy 7mm.
 
For the same parent case, if you neck it up and shoot the same weight bullet, I expect a higher muzzle velocity from the larger bore - assuming the correct powder and equal pressure limits.  Also, with the same cartridge, I usually get higher muzzle energy from heavier bullets.  You will never convice me that there is a single best bullet diameter where increasing it always results it lower performance and reducing it results in lower performance.  To say that a 7mm is better than a 30 because it is smaller means to me that you should convince yourself that a 6.5 is better yet. and so on and so on.  Try telling the real long range crowd that a 300rum is a better choice than a 338edge.

The extremely high weight of the .338 is what gives it the high B.C. and there for it retains it's energy down range.  The high .818 B.C.  of the .338 berger 300 grain hybrid VLD comes purely from it being so heavy.  If you tried a 30 cal or 7mm bullet that heavy the bullet would be too long to stabilize.  And about the velocity of a 30 cal and 7mm if you take two water hoses with the same pressure at the facet and put a smaller nozzle on one of them the water out of the smaller nozzle will come out faster.  The same is true when you're talking about bullets coming out of the same case.  And I'm not saying because the 7mm is smaller it is better I'm just stating that in a perfect environment the 7mm of the same parent case will always out perform it's 30 cal. counter part.  As far as the 6.5 in a 140 grain bullet there is not another 140 grain bullet in any caliber that has a higher B.C. than the 6.5mm.  As the same if you tried to get a 180 grain 6.5mm it would be too long to stabilize.  Am I saying that anyone shooting a 7mm has a better chance than some one shooting a 30 cal absolutely not  I am just staying that in the same parent case the 7mm out performs the 30 cal.

[SHOOTALL]

Of course we are talking long range but really would you want a 7 or a 30 if a critter was close and comming .

[jabey9210]

Definitely the bigger heavier bullet!

[smokehouserex]

 
 
  Hey jabey9210:
 
  Something to think about..... the number 7 in Biblical Numerology is the number of perfection or completetion. 
  HM

[jabey9210]

 
  Hey jabey9210:
 
  Something to think about..... the number 7 in Biblical Numerology is the number of perfection or completetion. 
  HM

I have never heard that before but I definitely like it!!!!!

[wyohandi]

 if you think any shot over 500yds is gonna be a sure thing in real world conditions I have bad news for you.
as far as power I look at it like this, does it make as much as a 223 @ 100-200yds? at the distance your shooting                                  if it does it will kill "deer".
people will argue ballistics forever, pick anything 6.5cal and up that will launch a 140gr or heavier pill at around
3000fps and go for it, as far as barrel life you should probably burn one up getting dope and practice on bad days
to really understand the wind before you ever try long range hunting.