Dual purpose 24, 25, or 26 cal - Which one?

[Tapper]

I would like to fill a niche for a dual purpose encore pistol barrel. It's summer time use would be long range ground hogs, in the fall, its targets would be whitetails or similar sized game. I'm thinking something with max velocity, using bullets of 100 +/- 20 grains.

Any suggestions? Anyone want to relate their favorite with some measured 15" barrel (or there abouts) exterior balistics?

Thanks,

Tapper

[Gregory]

Had a 15" 260 Rem that did 2600 fps with 120 gr bullets and a 15" 250 Savage that did 2500 fps with 100 gr bullets.

[Rol Page]

I started with a 15" Encore in .243 Winchester. Shot a whitetail with it, but was not happy with the groups with heavier bullets.  The twist rate is too slow to stabilize the longer bullets @ velocities attainable from the 15" barrel.  100GR factory loads keyholed.

I wanted a minimal increase in recoil and muzzle blast so I researched ballistic coefficients and sectional densities of different bullets and found that the .260 Remington was the next step up from the .243 Winchester.
Also, the twist rate in factory barrels is 1:8", faster than the .243 thus stabilizes longer bullets better.

Using Nosler 120 Gr Ballistic tips I get 2525FPS with handloads. This gives good penetration and good trajectories , and +/- 1" @ 100yds.  I suspect that I am the limiting factor in group size.

 The 7mm-08 was a close second, and in retrospect, I wish I had tried it.  Seems a lot more chatter here on Graybeard about the 7mm-08 and very little about the .260 Remington.

Down side with the .260 is slightly reduced frontal area, or expansion ratio than the larger calibers.  I doubt that any woodchuck or whitetail that I have shot knew the difference.

Good Luck with whatever you pick.    Rol

[Rupe/PA]

I can't give you any input concerning calicers for the Encore.  I have been shooting Contenders since the 60's however, and would recommend that you consider a .25 cal as a dual purpose caliber.  I have two barrels chambered in 257 TCU for my Contenders and they perform exceptionally well.  I shoot the 75 or 85 grainers for groundhogs and the 100 grainer for deer.  Some others have said that the 85 Nosler BT, which I shoot for 'hogs is outstanding for deer.  The quarter bore is my choice for a dual purpose cal, be it handgun or rifle.

[KYODE]

how about a 6br? maybe i'd call it triple purpose. :grin:  target, varmint , and deer. you can run 80gr bullets around 2800fps or so. if you felt, it was a little on the light side, you could load 85gr nosler partitions for deer. it does lean a little to the light side, but will take deer cleanly with well placed shots. puts me in mind of one of those calibers that performs better than you would think.
the 250 savage would be a nice one, as would a 250savage AI in a custom barrel. then there's a 257roberts too. :roll:  lot's of good choices out there. wish i could shoot them all.

[Tapper]

Gregory, Those are the first numbers I've heard ref the 260 Rem. Sounds like a sweet cartridge for mid-sized game. Same w/ the 250 Savage. Thanks for the input.

Rol, Yes, I hear that the 7-08 is excellent. A family member uses it in a bolt action carbine, and I saw its excellent performance on a nice deer this fall. 7mm is a little big I think for slinging at Mr. Ground Hog. I do like to 'shoot through' my deer if possible, and the 7 would certainly do that. Bullet selection is always my first consideration, then I figure out how I'm going to get it there. Thanks.

Rupe, You echo my thoughts on the 25, and probably hunt both primary targets in similar terrain. My initial plan could be the 100g Nosler Bal Tip for the G-hogs (or 85??), and the 100g Partition for deer. And there's always the 115 and 125 Partition if I need a bit more weight. I'd really like to launch these fast. Not sure of the cartridge platform to do it though. I can read the load books, and have, all day, but except for a very few, they site velocity for rifle length barrels. I can guess, but would rather know the actual velocities and experiences of their performance. Hence my question here at GBO. I am leaning toward the 25 bore. Seems to make sense.

Thanks to all.

Anyone shooting a 25 bore laser? Just how fast can you get a 25 cal to shoot from a 15" or so barrel???

[Graybeard]

If it were for the varmints only I'd say go with a .24. If for deer only I'd say go with a 7MM. But for a combo I'd go with a .25. Most likely either a .257 Roberts AI or .25-06 since you're using an Encore.

GB

[RonF]

Pretty close, GB.  I have an SSK barrel in .257 Roberts (not AI) that sure does the job.  85 gr. (or even down to 75) for varmints and 100 partition for deer.

RonF

[newhh]

When its all said and done I think you'll find that the quarter bore is the only way to go.

Part of the answer to your question depends on factory ammo or hand loads.  I think in factory rounds the only answer would be a 25/06 in a 15" or a 16".  If you are going to do custom barrels you can pick the twist you want.  If the barrel was 16.25" then you could use carbine stocks for the places that you can,t use handguns.

I read an article on a 25HBR (Hunter Benchrest) that sounded realy good.  The guy used the 250Savage and moved the shoulder back for a longer neck and then blew the case almost stright.   With a short heavy bull barrel he was getting groups less than .4 moa at 100 yeards.  The idea was a hunting gun that could also be used for competition.

This idea could be worked with rimmed 307 Win brass.  If the velocity was to low the chamber could be lengthed. If you needed even more velocity then use 444 brass to make a rimmed 257Roberts HBR.  It seemed that part of the success of the HBR was the longer neck to easly handle the different bullet lenght and seating requirements.

Some of the billistic programs will let you design wildcats from whatever brass you choose and give you case volume.  With case volume, barrel lenght, twist and bullet choise it will give you powders and aprox velocities and some will even give aprox pressures.  Some of the programs will even give you the barrel twist to use.  If you check with CH4D or Redding there are already a large range of reloading dies to choose from.  Some of them might give you what you want or with a slight modification will work. Compleat custom dies are usualy too coastly for most of us.

Part of the fun is wondering what could be done.  Have lost of fun and goodluck with whatever you decide to do.

[Rol Page]

All this chatter makes me think that I missed the boat, maybe I should go for a 7mm-08 and a 25-06 to "round out" my collection......

Whadya' think?  Maybe I can get you fellas to help me convince my wife :grin:  :grin:

PS to my earlier post, I do get pass throughs with the Nosler 120 Ballistic Tips, makes for better blood trails if they don't drop within sight as they generally do.  Last season's large whitetail doe was hit front right shoulder, penetrated through, and exited the off side ribs with a hole that I could put 3 fingers in.  Under the right front shoulder, the hole in the rib cage was nearly the size of a tennis ball.  The bullet did a fantastic job as far as I can tell, she ran about 40 - 50 yds across a hayfield and dropped.
Being an olde bowhunter, I try to avoid bone, but its nice to see that a bullet will go through a shoulder if need be.

Nice to hear from everyone,  Rol

[Tapper]

Well, It seems that the .257 cal candidates are the ones at the top of my list now.

They are: 257 Roberts AI, and the 25-06.
Add the Win 25 WSSM as the factory rifle nums are in the same vicinity.

*Not excluded is the 25 WSM, which I believe is a wildcat on the wsm series. Probably have to neck 270 wsm brass down.

I balk a little at wildcats due to the lack of load data. One bullet that I am growing ever fond of is the Barnes XLC, and I would like to load this with the help of 'factory data'. So the 25 wsm (?)wildcat is included with an *. Barnes lists plenty of data for the 257 AI, 25-06, and I'm sure it won't be long until they list data for the 25 wssm.

Now - I figure about 2750 - 2900 fps for a standard 100g bullet from each of the 3 candidates. Anyone have some actual numbers you've chronographed from these short tubes - even if it's with other than 100 grain bullets?? I'd like to separate these last 3 candidates out on actual, observed performance over the chrony. If there is little difference, I'll just make a judgement "my druthers" type call.

Also - How about a .257 Wby Mag?? Wow, lots of powder, but has anyone actually tried it? Any numbers?

Thanks again to all, this is going well.

Tapper

[Biathlonman]

I personally feel that the .264 is just about perfect for your application.  To me killing the deer is a far more important factor then killing the varmints and like to error on the side of caution.  With bullets from 85-160 grains bullet selection really leans to the .264 side of things.

Take your pick between .260, 6.5x55, 6.5x284.  All are fantastic with a reputation for accuracy.

[xphunter]

The 25 WSM will out perform the others mentioned in bolt guns, but I don't think that you will be able to approach that pressure level safely in an Encore.  I know of two guy in particular who tried this (not in the 25 WSM per say) in the Encore and came up with very frustraing results.  Others who have a WSM cartridge chambered for the Encore and are content to not run it at Bolt pressures are very happy with it.  The 25-284 is another contender just for uniquness since it is basically a ballistic twin to the 25-06.  You can get Lapaua brass in 6.5-284 now and neck it down easily.  I have always liked the 257 Rob AI too.  Of course the 6.5-284 is a great LR cartridge to when it comes to varmints.  I am becoming enamored with the 6.5's more all the time.  Isn't it great to have so many choices?

Ernie

[Bullseye]

25-06.  My Encore will is extremly accurate with bullets from 75 grs. to 120 grs.  That is a ground hog hammer on one end and a deer hammer on the other.  That is why I picked it as the one rifle barrel to own for my Encore.  The 243, 260 and some of the others are great rounds but I thought the 25-06 covered the spectrum better.

[Big Gun]

I do believe that anything from the 6 br up to the 7-08 would work well including the 243, 257 Roberts, 250 Savage, 25-06, 260 Rem, and 7 Br.  However, I would choose the 260 Rem - plenty of bullet to make a big hole, reputation for accuracy, factory TC barrel (a bit hard to come by), factory ammo available, good bullet selection, and powder capacity to work up high velocity loads.  I have read quite a few negative comments about the 25-06 pistol barrels - for that reason I too have selected this barrel as my 1 Encore rifle barrel.

[Hopalong7]

Here's another vote for the 6.5's.  Although, Ive got a .260, I have yet to get enough experience with it to have total confidence.  But I've been shooting the 6.5JDJ in contender for about 12 years and just haven't found anything it wont do.  Shoots 85 Sierra's, 100BT's and 120Speer or 120BT's like a lazer(If only I could do the same).  If my gun safe was falling off a cliff into the river and I could reach and grab one gun, no question what it would be.
GOOD SHOOTIN',  Walt  

[Tapper]

May I say that all of your inputs have been superb. Thanks --

Hopalong 7 - Yes, the 26's keep drawing me back. I have always thought that the 6.5 JDJ in the contender is a great round. Do you shoot this from a 14" barrel?? Now, w/ the encore, there are other 6.5's that come into play.  The two that remain on my mind are the 260 Rem and the 6.5-284 (Biathlonman - I hear you ref error toward the deer side of things).

xphunter - a big thanks for your input ref the 25 wsm. I had suspected that, but it's great to have things confirmed. It's off my list.

SO - I think we're down to getting the chrono results in short tubes.

Anyone have numbers for any bullet weight in the following candidates?: 15" tube or there abouts, please indicate.

.257 Roberts AI:
25-06:
25 wssm:
260 Rem: (A Thanks to Rol Page) 2525 w/ 120 NBT
6.5-284:

Thanks,
Tapper

[Tapper]

Well, First, I want to thank everyone for chiming in with their thoughts and data.
I have decided to "error" on the larger side of the .264 bore. The last two candidates were the 260 Rem and the 6.5-284 Norma. It looks as though the Norma round has just a tad more capability with the heavy end of the bullet weights, so that's where I am going to go. If it shoots well on the heavier bullet side, a 30 cal contender barrel may go out the door to help finance other 'needs'.

When all this happens, I'll fill you guys in on the results.

Thanks again,

Tapper

[palgeno]

Tapper----I got a T/C Custom Shop  15" barrel for my Encore about a year ago and I am very pleased. Mine is a full bull and is not ported and the recoil is mild. It is 1/2 moa accurate   or better with Noslers and Speers--both 120 and 140grs. The velocities with the 140's exceed what I get with 120's in my 6.5 JDJ Contender. I am very happy with the 6.5 JDJ but it runs out of case room when you go to 140 gr bullets and the 6.5-284 keeps on going. Next loads will be  with 160 gr bullets but the selection is not so good---perhaps a solid bullet----too bad Nosler doesn't make a 160 gr Partition or Bonded bullet in 6.5mm.  With the correct bullets selections,this could be a "do all" caliber. Of course I would miss the all the other calibers . Guess I have terminal T/C-itis!!!  pg