Author Topic: Handi-"Paradox"  (Read 2431 times)

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Offline keith44

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Handi-"Paradox"
« on: January 08, 2012, 08:28:57 PM »
A few of my fellow gun nuts will know what I am talking about when I say "remember the H&H Paradox?  Even fewer will know that the gun has been re-introduced to the H&H line.  Basically the new gun is a double barreled shotgun that is also a rifle.  The same barrel set shoots both shot loads, and a 12 bore rifle bullet (not a slug).  The choke (yes this gun is choked to improved cylinder, and modified cylinder) has very shallow rifling.  H&H produces 12 gauge (ONLY) guns in this configuration.  The originals could be had in 12 or 16 gauge, and single or double barreled.


With the addition of a 20 gauge fixed choke barrel (assuming I can fit it) to my small collection I am curious about building something like the paradox from a Handi SB2 frame, and 20 gauge barrel.  Just thinking for now, as rifling only the choked area of the existing barrel seems to be the challange.


Any thoughts??  The purpose of such a gun?  easy here in Ky the small game hunting season opens during the modern gun season for Deer, and the two run concurrently for 10 days.  A single gun, using two different ammo types would be very um "Handi" ::)

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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 10:23:48 PM »
How about a rifled choke tube?  It would only take a minute to swap out for something better for shooting shot...

Tony

Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 12:06:46 AM »
I think a 12 gauge rifle  bullet would get meat on both ends. probably need a scraper to put the bunny in the bag too ;D
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  it's where you hit em "

Offline wganzWork

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 07:09:37 AM »
12 GA slug would be nice for pigs.  8)

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 08:07:44 AM »
I think the 'choke' is needed to have some reduced dia. for the rifling to not be overbore, and it is likely a gentle twist. I suspect it probably only shoots well with the proprietary H&H full dia. 'Paradox' projectile, also. The idea of having one gun that shoots both shot loads and solid projectiles has some appeal; but to be useful, it must do both well.
It so happens, I have a reprint of the trials of the original Paradox in England, and the idea did not set the world on fire. It is suspected that the factory marksman knew where each barrel of the double shot to, at distance, and adjusted his hold to make a tight, both barrels, group. If it was such a good idea, why did it not get that 'best of all compliments', knock-off copies by other gunmakers? This mentioned grouping of two barrels is a non-issue with your single barrel, but I thought you might find it interesting.
I have considered the concept, too, and would use a smoothbore barrel with the interchangable choke tubes; at least, if it didnt pan out, I would still be able to make it do something without chucking the works. I do know that my '12 (see my list below) is a vicious kicking beast with regular Foster type slug loads, and Ive posted about it in the past. The best platform would be the heaviest you can manage. I believe you will need to resign yourself to making your own loads, and a full bore dia. Paradox bullet (there are mouldmaker who make them) in a reformed 50BMG case (lots of info on this in the Sluggun Forum) would probably be the ticket to ride, as plastic hulls are thicker at the mouth, and you want all the bullet dia. you can get.
Oh......and a gunbearer to carry the beast for you, and maybe and extra PAST recoil pad and a shoulder pad, too.........and a good, on call, working relationship with your chiropractor  ;) .
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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Offline RPRNY

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 08:50:41 AM »
I am familiar with the original paradox guns and it's fantastic that H&H are bringing them back although, given cost, irrelevant to me personally. As I recall, and I may be mistaken, only the last few inches of the original paradox guns were rifled. As you are undoubtedly aware, rifling of any kind, even over a short length plays havoc with shot patterns and while modern plastic wads may help you avoid fouling from soft lead shot, lousy patterns are just that. There are a couple of practical approaches to the overlapping season gun.

If I recall correctly, Remington/Baikal do (or have done) a 12ga, .243 combined "bergstutz", over/under. Savage did one as well but I believe only a very few in 12ga/30-30 with most no greater caliber than .22 Hornet. These are within reasonable economic reach. Blaser do some lovely ones in a number of calibers, but now we're in the $80,000 range.... There are drillings (usually Merkels) on GB from time to time in the under $10,000 range of course but 12/12/7x57 seems to be the most popular and I believe all of the 20ga guns (few and fare between) I have seen have been chambered in a .22 caliber.  The rifled choke solution would of course give you effectively a paradox gun, but with the same issues in a single barreled gun, bad patterns and probably not greatly superior performance in a slug than a good Foster. The option of changing chokes to address both small game and deer works in theory but still requires changing choke tubes and ammo between game.

For most cost effective solution, a 20 ga CZdouble trigger sxs with screw in chokes, one with a rifled choke for sabot slugs and the other suited to the small game of the day gives you full versatility for under $1000.

Of course, this is all stuff and nonsense since you want to build a paradox gun, which is a great idea. Presuming you work out how you want to rifle the last third or so of a 20ga barrel (choked presumably to IC), the bigger issue is the negative effect on pattern from the rifling spinning the wad and shot. One way to mitigate that might be to load with fiber wads and no plastic shot cup. The plus side is that it may confer less centrivical force to the shot. The downside is wide, stringy patterns of no use beyond (my guess) 20-25 yards. The problem of lead fouling the rifling grooves might be mitigated by using hard nickel plated shot (although what scouring effect this may have on the grooves is another matter). A 1 oz  load of relatively hard / plated shot at higher velocities (1300/1350) may produce a hot enough core to remain effective even with a patchy edge.

I think it's very interesting and look forward to hearing what you come up with.
[spoof]The Handi-Rifle is a highly matrixed, vintage tactical shooting platform allowing operators high interchangeability, extended caliber diversity, and a wide choice of range related optical solutions suited to the demands of their tactical operating environments.  ;) [/spoof]

Offline woodsrunner

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 02:33:01 PM »
Keith44-discussion on another group about boring a rifled 20ga and making a Paradox 16ga. If you are interested hit me with a PM--woodsrunner
Good Hunting--Woodsrunner

Offline keith44

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 02:53:41 PM »
pm sent, thanks
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Offline Riverhog45

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2012, 12:55:08 AM »
Gentleman sorry for resurrecting an old tread. I was reading on another forum in December 2010 about an H&R 20ga ush to 16ga paradox conversion. I tried to get a response from the persons or person working on it but failed. I gave up till reading this tread today. If you have any info on the conversion I am very interested.
Thanks
Riverhog 45

Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2012, 03:46:33 AM »
Might as well recycle an old thread and save some memory.  I had missed this thread before.  I have great plans to do a paradox gun, which is why I picked up a 20 ga. TDC barrel.  I still have to get a rifled choke tube from Brownell's.  I assume they still have them.  Sights may be another issue, probably need something which will clamp onto the ventilated rib.

-Kees-
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline keith44

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 04:48:47 AM »
I picked up two 20 ga barrels, and plan to attempt a conversion, still studying the how to's

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Offline JimP.

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 05:38:22 PM »
i have a H&R1871 ultra 12 ga slug gun, it is rifled from chamber to muzzle. I am currently loading a .730 inch round ball in a 3 inch plastic  shell with several fiber wads and 140 grains (measured by volumn) of Pyrodex. i also load the BPI AQ 1 oz slug and the Gualandi 1 1/8 oz slug with the same 140 grain charge (measured by volumn) of Pyrodex. Fun to shoot and accurate enough for hunting out to 100 yds or further if you take the trajectory into account. I have a Tasco red dot sight on it and the sight has so far stood up to the recoil. NEI has a mold for the 12 ga paradox bullet if you would want to use it.

Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 06:16:03 PM »



   Check out Dixie slugs, that's exactly what they are reproducing there, the paradox load.
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Offline wganz

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 07:40:49 AM »
I was going to get a 20GA rifled slug barrel and have it 'throated' with a reamer as the Cowboy Action Shooters do to take the chamber step out for use with brass cased slugs.
 8)

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 10:33:46 AM »
Well.........if you think about that whole chamber to bore thing, the throat is often considered the most important transition point for projectile size/angle of leade, etc. to avoid gas cutting and leading and produce accuracy. Those rifled slug H&R barrels are regarded as being pretty darn accurate, so I wouldnt go changing that throat until I had exhausted all my lead projectile options using it as is.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
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Offline xhare

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 03:36:19 AM »
I remember an article in Rifle or Handloader magazine some 10 years ago about the Paradox Gun.  I believe it was by Ross Seyfried. He had an original H&H and detailed the troubles he had getting it to shoot to the sights and to regulate plus it kicked like a mule.  Only once he go hold of some original molds, did he realize his problem.  The molds cast undersized bullets which seemed odd to him, but they worked beautifully.  He realized that the slightly undersized bullet traveled most of the barrel with little resistance, thus reduced recoil, then, once it hit the slightly choked and rifled portion of the barrel, it trued up and flew straight.  It worked perfectly.  Those guys at H&H, over 100 years ago, knew exactly what they were doing.  In some ways, the Paradox Gun is a lost art.  In some ways, Dixie Slugs brings it back, in fact they mention Paradox guns on their website. 
 

Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2012, 03:03:02 PM »
Xhare,

Did they have a wad behind the bullet to seal the bore?

-Kees-
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline keith44

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 04:30:26 AM »
I read that article too, and have it tucked away somewhere.  I'll see if it tells how the bore was sealed.  If memory serves I seem to recall the use of over powder wads, but I am not certain of that.

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Offline xhare

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2012, 05:18:37 AM »
I cant remember for certain either.  I will spend some time this weekend trying to locate it. 


Offline spooked

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2012, 10:41:12 AM »
As I remember the article the bullet had a large waistn . not exactly like a air rifle pellet..i remember that their was a reshaping of the bullet when it hit the rifling in the choked area of the barrel.. :-\
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Offline plumberroy

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Re: Handi-"Paradox"
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2012, 12:09:55 PM »
I know it is not a pardox barrel  But I have good luck with .625 round balls out of a standard 20 ga. tracker II @1260 fps I shoot 4 1/2 " groups with factory iron sights at 100 yards and it is minute of squrrels head at 30-40 yards  ;D
Roy
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