Author Topic: Ammo , shotgun shells (Read 3530 times)

SHOOTALL · « **on:** January 09, 2012, 10:52:05 AM »

I grew up in Va. Hunted most of my life in the eastern part of it. The shotgun is the tool of choice for much of the hunting I have done. In some places its the law in others its because of the density of the briers and trees . SO I have tended to look at the shotgun as the best defense tool . I shot shells from WW2 times in the 70's , have had left over shells that worked fine after years of laying around some long times and one shell left in a boat in Canada for a year worked even though the red color was almost white/pink. What I have seen this year is shells new out of the box that were useless. The shells were 3.5" 12 ga. buchshot .They had been stored in a closet for about 2 years . Some were #4 shot others 00. Some were silver box Win. otheres were black box Win. ( as a note after Y2K i picked up some win 3 inch 00 buck in the white box and its still good) . When using the 3.5 shells I noticed the crimp was bluging out a bit and a wrinkle just above the brass(steel) base. Out of 14 shells onlt 4 worked as they should have. Some you could see the shot going thru. the air. The recoil was so low you could see it.
I don't know it they were manf. poor or my storage was bad ( all other ammo near them is fine). Or they could have been damaged in storage or shipment before i got them.
My point is any ammo you might depend on should be checked often. Many talk about bugging out or extended time away from home with what you could carry with you. This has really made me look at the shotgun shells. I have always rejected the 22LR due to the poor seal a heel type bullet offers and not not sure about the shotgun ammo anymore. Some offer plastic bags but with sweat and temp changes any ammo with a seal issue could/would be effected. Packed in a vehicle or pack ammo gets pushed, pounded and mashed all bad for a shotgun shell.
Just a thought.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2012, 11:05:36 AM »

I have new shells and some from the 70s that came with a gun I inherited. all still work just fine.
if I were planning for a bug-out shotgun, I would get some primer sealant and seal the primer, crimp and around the brass-to-plastic area.
a 20ga would be perfect for an allround gun.

don heath · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2012, 07:41:05 PM »

I work for a company that makes ammo and powder - true we don't make pistol powder or shotgun powder but...here is the lesson on powder

1) Double based, extruded powders like Norma, Vihtavuori, H1000 etc have a definate shelf life. They begin to weep the Nitroglycerine after some time....what is 'some time'? Ans We - don't know. We do know that 6,5x55 Swedish Mauser ammo from between the wars will sometimes detonate...so the powder has become unstable after say 70 years. Techniques have improved, but...Lapua military ball ammo in .7,62 has shown a shelf life of only 10 years before the combination of hard brass and moisture in the powder has caused verdigries buildup inside the cases.

2) Pouble based ball powders- heck of alot more stable than extruded- lifespan is probably a couple hundred years
3) Single based extruded powders- lifespan is indefinate.

We were forced to stop all use of American Primers after 2008 - quality of both federal and Winchester declined to the point where we could nolonger trust them and the number of rejects was impossibly high. I think all the US ammo companies racked up ammo and primer production to meet the shortages and QC went out the window.

Conclusion- Check your ammo, If it is not mil spec and loaded with ball powder, don't trust the indefinate lifespan and seal the primers with nail varnish.

I have always sealed my primers in on all my hunting ammo and used the nail varnish to 'colour code' the loads - you don't want to grab solids when the client is shouting about a lion in his tent at 2am and you don't want a handful of softs when an you unexpectedly bump into an elephant (I take other precautions- solids are on the right, softs on the left etc and now load solids in nickeled cases as well) But the main point is, that in sitting sealing in primers you have a fresh look at the ammo, check that it cycles and anything that doesn't seem 100% gets called practice ammo.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2012, 01:08:35 AM »

thanks , I didn't mention it but I feel some componets are of less quality these days also.
what brand primers do you use now ?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2012, 01:11:42 AM »

Also I use paint sticks to moisture proof. they look like magic markers only with paint not ink . They come in about a dozen colors and are easy to use.

vacek · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:37:36 AM »

Gee Whiz,

Everytime Don Heath writes something I learn a lot. What a resource!!!!

I like Varget in my 308 but it is double base and extruded. I don't mind the issues with measuring as I weigh each load. Regard primers, were there any issues with CCI?

BUGEYE · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2012, 07:50:00 AM »

back when I reloaded, winchester 748 ball powder was my only choice. is there a ball powder for shotguns ?

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:10:08 AM »

Don Heath, very good report, thankyou.

Shootall, do you live in a area with humidity/temp swings? Seems you have alot of ammo issues and those are two biggies in ammo degradation.And why our military stores in igloo's/bunkers, constant temp/humidity. I have ammo that is 30 plus years old and it is still functional as intended.Rimfire,shotgun, and center fire pistol/rifle.

My long term storage method is to vacuum seal ammo and store in surplus ammo cans,with a dessicant pack of some sort, and place in an area in my home that holds as constant temp as possible. We really don't have high or swings in humidity. Maybe I'll go ahead and seal the primers on my sporting ammo as another precaution.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2012, 10:01:43 AM »

Yes we have humidity from 100% to the mid 40% during the year. Temp from 100+ to 0 at times. The shells I am talking about were next to others in a closet and the others showed no ill effect. I use the ammo cans also . The primers I use stay in an unconditioned shead year round and some are 20 years old and still good. I wonder if the shells in question have problems ? None of the others seem to be effected. The 22 LR are a known problem.

don heath · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:49:39 PM »

The problems in 2008 with US made primers caused RUAG to develop their own replacement for Federal 215 and Winchester LRM- Unfortunately they are not available to the public. The Finns (Lapua) also have their own primers.

I have always used CCI for pistol shooting. Many of their primers are outsouced and in recent years I have bought CCI brand primers direct from the factory in South Africa (PMP). Thier magnum Primers have served me well in 9,3, .375 and .458 Lott - never really felt the need to invest in fed 215's until I started loading .470 NE and up. The only problem with the CCI outsourced primers is that they are not always round and when I switched from a Dillion 550 to a 650 I had a few problems. PMP seem to have resolved this and PMP or PMP made CCI primers seem to run just fine ...but had a 95 primer bang using Federal primers last year in the Dillon - gets your attention and entirely due to faulty primer sizing.

.22mag have 20x the lifespan of .22LR in a hot climate. I have a rifle in .22 WRF and another in .22Mag. I have 1930's vintage ammo for the WRF and it all goes bang. 1970's vintage .22LR is incresingly giving missfires (I have about 20,000 rnds of 1970's vintage Eley and PMP). Even with fresh .22LR their is the odd misfire and compeitive shooters are always allowed to have two spare rounds ready in case of misfires. I have never had a misfire with .22 Mag- a real consideration if you are thinking defence or long term storage. Just out here .22 mag runs US$ 1 per round (Ouch!)

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2012, 12:22:05 PM »

My Ruger single six is the only arm I have a cylinder for that shoots 22 mag. I use the 22LR cylinder the most for plinking/practice and the occasional grouse.My son was an AMMO troop in the air force for 5 years and tells me that humidity is the worse followed by far temp. swings for small arms ammo. Were I in a high humidity area I think I would try vacuum sealing with an enclosed dessicant pack.

Yep shootall, sounds like it may be just a bad batch of ammo in the particular flavor you mentioned.

Couger · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2012, 10:01:21 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL

Also I use paint sticks to moisture proof. they look like magic markers only with paint not ink . They come in about a dozen colors and are easy to use.

SHOOTALL, Will you elaborate more on these 'paint sticks?'

I've never used them, but they sound interesting.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2012, 10:13:06 AM »

Be happy to , Called- Markal ,Valve action paint marker
made by la-co industries, inc.
Elk Grove Village , IL 60007

part number 96825

the bar code number , 48615 96825

made in U.S.A.

I get them at a tool/hardeware supply . Chesterfield Trading Co. in Chesterfield Va.

Like it says you push the tip in and it pumps paint on to the tip . I dab the primers with some and wipe excess off with a paper towel. It leaves a nice paint ring in the groove between the primer abd case pocket.

There is also a roller ball painter , a small plastic bottle woth what looks like a large ball point pen top. I don't have any of those left as we use the others now. They worked but not as well. With those you also pushed the tip/ball in.

Couger · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2012, 10:33:11 AM »

Quote from: BUGEYE

back when I reloaded, winchester 748 ball powder was my only choice. is there a ball powder for shotguns ?

Ball powders for shotguns and pistols? Heck yeah! Many times the applications seem almost interchangeable with what I use or cater towards - of course looking at specific load recipes so the right loads are indeed used! Carefully checked. Then twice! Then thrice!

But ball powders?

WW748 is indeed a ball propellent, as is WW760 which is synonymous with Hodgdon H414.

Hodgdon HS-6 is a ball powder and the same as the old WW540, in a different canister and cosmetics.

Same with HS-7 and a nall powder, same as the old WW571. HS-6/W540 as well as HS-7/W571 work well in many pistols. Also WW296 is the same as Hodgdon H110, both good in magnum revolver loads and the .410 shottie.

Most of the [former] Hercules/Alliant propellents are flake powders for the shotshell/handgun applications; extruded for rifle apps.

Dupont/IMR over the years (and decades) offered powders like PB and 'Bulk' as early smokeless shotshell propellents, usually flake ganules I believe as i have never actually used either. But SR4756 is a flake powder I've used for some stout .38spl loads and is great as an alternative to Unique or Herco when making shottie field loads. Most IMR rifle powders I'm aware of are extruded; 4198, 4227, 4064, 3031, 4895, 4320, 4350, 4831, etc. SR7625 is another old Dupont flake shotshell powder often overlooked as well.

AA or Accurate Arms offers MANY ball powders for rifles and also extruded too (AA2, AA5, AA7, AA9 are all ball pistol powders!). What surprises me is the lack of information (attempts?) to develop shotshell data from Accurate's pistol powders?

For my own uses, HS-6 is a huge favorite, for handguns and many hunting shell loads in 12 and 20 gauge! And while i haven't used any yet, the newer Hodgdon Longshot powder is one I suspect I'll use a lot someday, as it is a ball propellent and more 'modern' in its chemistry than HS-6. I've also never used HS-7, but would hate to see it go away if Hodgdon discontinued it! I like knowing its available if i ever needed it! Esp for 3inch 12ga applications?

When making magnum handgun loads or magnum shotshell loads, Alliant BlueDot is a huge favorite (according to demand/sales), but its so dammed dirty and the reason I've never used it! I know from personal experience Herco and Unique are also DIRTY, and RedDot used to be worse than it is now.

I also know ball powders are often hotter burning (temperature wise, not saying anything about pressures), as is also all the Hodgdon Clays powders - which are flake form too. All the Hodgdon Clays powders have data for handguns as well.

I cater toward ball propellents for all my reloading, and Hodgdon and Accurate Arms could probably supply 80-90 plus percent of my choices!

Couger · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2012, 10:35:12 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL

..... made in U.S.A.

I get them at a tool/hardeware supply . Chesterfield Trading Co. in Chesterfield Va.

Like it says you push the tip in and it pumps paint on to the tip . I dab the primers with some and wipe excess off with a paper towel. It leaves a nice paint ring in the groove between the primer abd case pocket.

There is also a roller ball painter , a small plastic bottle woth what looks like a large ball point pen top. I don't have any of those left as we use the others now. They worked but not as well. With those you also pushed the tip/ball in.

THANKS! I'll definitely be checking them out!

Couger · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2012, 10:50:10 AM »

PRIMERS?

I'm not surprised Tinnchester is having trouble with their ammo and any components!!

But I am VERY surprised Federal quality assurance has slipped!

I use a lot of CCI products, and know their .22's slipped a little in quality when they could'n't run enough shifts enough hours to meet ALL OUTPUT!

This was one or two years ago I believe! As I have no inside-way tio "vett" this fact (or rumor?)

But if .22 rimfire quality is any indication, CCI .22's seem to be back to their dependable excellent selves!

Aside from FEDERAL bench rest primers, CCI is who I have trusted the most for primers (and rimfire). I hardly if ever use Winchester or Remington caps, unless the Remington #6 1/2 cap for really sensative [SMALL and very sensative rifle loads] like the .218 Bee, .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball (and even the new .17 Fireball and .17 Hornet cartridges) would benefit from that 6 1/2 primer! I haven't loaded most of those punie rifle rounds, but have read a ton of articles on all of them!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:59:38 AM »

Ok this got me thinking , So I got some old shells out buck shot and slugs. Some were over 20 years old. Some worked as they should some not so good. The report was from normal loud to light.

don heath · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:25:47 PM »

Shootall - .22lr and shogun have, by the nature of how they are put together, the shortest shelf life of any commercial ammo. Just drop a box of each and any centrefire into water for a day or give them a slight spray over with WD 40 and wait a month and you'll see what I mean.

A simple vaccume packer will serve to preserve shot shellls extremely well. :22LR...mustn't be alowed to get too hot. There is wax inside the case and this migrates to the priming compound slowly but surely.

As a matter of course I vacume pack all my centre fire ammo after running it through my rifle once. I then know that it is safe even if it is on top of the truck when it rains, or somebody spills a can of oil on it when doing an 'in the bush' oil change on a diff that has leaked or whatever. I cut the packet open when I need it. Pack my 9,3's in 20's and ammo for my double in 9's (MTM case cards) and my revolver in 12's.

Looking at the old militrary ammo I have from preee 1900 and the tones of .303 from WWII, it all works if stored correctly...and a large part of that 'correct storage' was to seal the ammo in airtight tins. I See MTM offer modern plastic eqivalents at a sensible price... Have arranged to pick up a couple when I am in the states next week. We'll see how they hold out on top of the truck for a couple of years

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2012, 01:37:44 AM »

I use ammo cans mostly with good results . I was just checking ammo that had been stored in a closet in org. boxes for both short and long times. I have to wonder how the ammo was shipped as most trucks get very hot in summer. I have had 22 LR that was faulty out the box the day it came from the store (Federal Brand) it may have gotten hot in shipping as the brass on some were discolored. I will now use up ammo sooner and store less as the deals aren't deals if the ammo is faulty after time.

Couger · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2012, 05:44:35 AM »

This is a little late to the discussion, but for really long term storage, what about burying something in a secure piece of property?

Anywhere you go on the planet (with rare exceptions), once something is underground three or four feet (in waterproof vaults/containers), the temp remains a steady 55-65 degrees or similar. Here in the USA a couple of firms have offered devices or products not unlike a septic tank or (agricultural) water tank for underground storage, touted for "wine storage, underground shelter/vault, etc., etc.!

But even those military ammo cans (or similar) could be used as is, IF FIRST COVERED or painted with a durable-enough coating to prevent them from rusting. And of course there are the verical storage tubes made from PVC pipe (however big and voluminous) or even sonobouy tubes that could be buried for storage and privacy.

BTW, our illustrious SecState Hitlery Klintoon is supposed to be working with the U.N. on trying to help pass a treaty that would prohibit private gun ownership anywhere in the world. Today I received a blurb via email from Gun Owners of America on this very thing. That's not new, but no doubt we'll be hearing more about it.

powderman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2012, 10:05:14 AM »

Last trip to ILL at Christmas I was talking to the neighbor, old hunting buddy and mentioned I couldn't find #4 shot for my 410, he can't even hold his shotgun up anymore but said he had several new boxes. Next day he called me over and gave me 3 boxes of 3 in Federal #4 shot 410, roll crimped. I've loaded shells since the 6th grade and am 64 ys old. I believe it's been at least 40 yrs since roll crimps were used. I've fired 5 or 6 and they shoot just fine. They had been stored in a metal can. POWDERMAN.

Couger · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2012, 05:17:21 PM »

Powderman, you need to do more shooting.

(and reloading

)

And congratulations on those .410 shells!

I haven't built any .410 shells for years, but a roll crimp was all we used. And they still work as well as ever. Some ammo I have purchased in the last several months were some British "GameLoads" (or similar moniker) that are two-inch shells! For old or antique SG's! Bought #6's and #7's, English sized of course. Both are roll crimps.

Biggest problems i see are not having the adequate tools to make that crimp. Ballistic Products Inc offers a device to help make roll crimps, best used in a drill press. BPI makes six of them, for each gauge.

bilmac · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »

Watch out for steel shot shells that may have gotten wet or damp. The shot can rust together. Don't know if any barrels have been hurt by rusted shot, but you would suspect that it could happen. At least you probably aren't going to hit too many ducks with a single lump of rust.

powderman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2012, 04:11:25 PM »

COUGAR. I bought a lee loader when I was in the 6th grade, I'm 64 now. Started with the old paper hulls. When they went to a star crimp the die was too long for the crimp to form. My Dad was a tool and die maker so he made a piece to set the shell on and it fit inside the die when hammered down, worked great, still does. Tell ya the truth, reloading used to be fun, now it's only a necessity. I'm not even sure where all of my stuff is, my loading bench has become a catchall for my wifes stuff. I bought some CENTURIAN shells, Spanish I think. Their #6s look about like #8s to me. I'll use em for blackbirds I reckon, they are worthless for squirrels and rabbits. POWDERMAN.

streak · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2012, 06:15:18 PM »

Quote from: powderman on January 27, 2012, 04:11:25 PM

COUGAR. I bought a lee loader when I was in the 6th grade, I'm 64 now. Started with the old paper hulls. When they went to a star crimp the die was too long for the crimp to form. My Dad was a tool and die maker so he made a piece to set the shell on and it fit inside the die when hammered down, worked great, still does. Tell ya the truth, reloading used to be fun, now it's only a necessity. I'm not even sure where all of my stuff is, my loading bench has become a catchall for my wifes stuff. I bought some CENTURIAN shells, Spanish I think. Their #6s look about like #8s to me. I'll use em for blackbirds I reckon, they are worthless for squirrels and rabbits. POWDERMAN.

Hey Powderman!
You mentioned blackbirds, are these regular old blackbirds or are they what we used to call in N.W. Louisiana and E.Texas cow birds? They are more brown than black but do intermingle with blackbirds. I used to watch my daddy shoot them with a 12 gauge and rack up 15 to 20 with one shot. Back in those days they were considered vermin!!

tacklebury · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2012, 06:19:14 AM »

Still are vermin in my book.

lol

powderman · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2012, 01:55:04 PM »

STREAK. Regular blackbirds. We have a few cowbirds that eat under my bird feeder, I have no problem with them, they have brn heads. There are thousands in the cities where they can't be shot. They give me a pretty wide berth unless I can shoot from the fencerow.
Growing up In ILL they bbids numbered in the thousands, maybe millions and were a huge problem. I saved my odd jobs money and bought shells for Pops old dbll bbl 12 ga. I decided to surprise the birds when they crossed the field heading for their roosts. I laid dwn in the field, sgun ready and xtra shells. Here they came, darkening the sky. Caught em by surprise, I jumped up and gave em both bbls. Anybody ever see THOUSANDS of spooked birds crap all at the same time?? YEP, I was covered, even had poop on my glasses and dripping off my nose. My sisters thought it was hilarious. I've been shooting bbirds ever since. POWDERMAN.

charles p · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2012, 02:44:41 PM »

In NC, all types of blackbirds flock together in the fall and winter. I see blackbirds, cow birds, red-wing black birds all in the same flocks. Come spring the red-wings nest is marsh grass. Don't know where the others go but they go to different locations. In the winter they are back together again and a nuisance to lots of people.

mechanic · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2012, 03:14:04 PM »

Can't help much with the shotgun shells, but if you guys run across some mil surp flare tube cases, they work great for storing 22. Sealed, water proof, and come with their own dessicant packet.

If I remember right, I got over 300 rounds in each tube, but my memory ain't too great....nontheless, a good investment.

Ben

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:14:59 AM »

Bismith shells clump also, just like steel can rust. I wouldn't trust a shotgun for outside defence over a long period, like in the woods a long time. Centerfire shells would hold up under almost all conditions. Unless you can absolutely keep .22's and shotgun shells completely dry. .22's are for game getting. Shotguns also for game getting. If either misses, the animal won't fire back. Centerfires for defense, both pistol and rifle.