Author Topic: ordered parts to convert my generator (Read 1618 times)

Lloyd Smale · « **on:** January 11, 2012, 12:57:12 AM »

I have a 6000 watt generator set up to run the house and pole barn in emergencys. Got a bit tired of storing and rotating gas for it though. i bought a conversion today so that it will not only run on gas but on propane and natural gas too. I bought even bought an optional regulator that will allow me to run it on a 20-100 lb propane tank or off a line t-ed into my propane hog after the existing regulator and this summer will run a line to it from there. Ive allready got two 100lb tanks to fill. In an emergency id hate to use my heating gas from the hog but its good to know i can do it if nessiary. Natural gas is right up to my neighbors house but to run it to mine they wanted 4k and i wasnt about to pay that much. But in a real emergency a guy could run a 200 foot line to his regulator if nothing else was available. The price of the kit was 280 bucks. Not cheap but worth it for the peice of mind for me.

charles p · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2012, 03:40:50 AM »

I've considered the same. My Honda 11.8K is a two cylinder gasoline engine. I have to keep about 15 gallons of fuel during hurricane season. I purchase ethanol free gasoline at a local marina and use an additive also. We cook and heat water with propane. I have an underground propane tank that I own. No natural gas on my island. I usually have another 20-40 gallons of gasoline in the boat on a life in the backyard. I'm told that the generator will consume a lot of propane if run for days at a time. After our last two major hurricanes, the only highway onto the island was breached. When that happened, it took about six weeks to repair each time. Propane resupply could become a greater problem than gasoline, which is ferried in almost immediately. The first resupply is beer and ice. No kidding.
I can see that it would be nice to have a dual fuel option. Maybe I should get a kit also.

tacklebury · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2012, 11:55:33 AM »

Sounds like a nice set-up Lloyd

Old Syko · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2012, 03:45:49 PM »

You have to keep in mind the difference in efficiency between gasoline, LP, and natural gas also effects the output of the genset. Between the three you will lose up to 30% of the original capacity therefore requiring a larger unit to acquire the same output.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2012, 12:00:59 AM »

i was told this isnt the case. What happens instead is the generator uses a bit more propane that it would gas but the cost of propane is less so its kind of a wash. I had a partner at work that ran his chev pickup on propane because his dad was the local distributor. He said if anything his truck seemed to run even better. It probably would be the case if you ran the gas through the same jet in your carb that you used for gas as it wouldnt pass enough fuel but the propane conversion uses a seperated jet to deliver fuel. KInd of like converting your propane furnace from ng to propane. You need more propane to flow to get the same ammount of heat so you just use a bigger nozzle. this setup also comes with an ajustable pressure regulator so that you can fine tune your pressure to get the power output back to what it normaly would be.

bilmac · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2012, 05:28:15 AM »

Yup, the gasses are less powerful, so you just use more of them. The trouble with gasoline is that it won't keep forever. They say that propane will.

Yup I suppose a generator would go through a lot of fuel if you were using electricity like you are when the lines are working, but I bet if you were hearing that generator running constantly you would figure out quick how to get by running it for just a couple three hours a day.

BIG Dog454 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2012, 05:53:48 AM »

A few years back, a snow storm took a tree down across the power lines in our area, about 10 homes without power. cranked up the gen for about 1 hr in the morning and 1 hour in the evening. In that hr we pumped our water cooled the freezer and refig etc.; Everybody took their showers washed the dishes, charged batteries and did whatever else we needed to do. Got along fine. Of course we have a wood furnace so heat wasn't a problem except the blower didn't run.
BF

BIG Dog454 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2012, 05:55:30 AM »

PS Lloyd where did you get your conversion parts??

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:39:09 AM »

http://www.propane-generators.com/pm_series.htm

Drilling Man · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2012, 06:00:23 AM »

There's less BTU's of energy in nat gas and propane, so you will use more of it, and max your genset out sooner. In the end, it will make less max power.

DM

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2012, 06:26:02 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on January 12, 2012, 12:00:59 AM

i was told this isnt the case. What happens instead is the generator uses a bit more propane that it would gas but the cost of propane is less so its kind of a wash. I had a partner at work that ran his chev pickup on propane because his dad was the local distributor. He said if anything his truck seemed to run even better. It probably would be the case if you ran the gas through the same jet in your carb that you used for gas as it wouldnt pass enough fuel but the propane conversion uses a seperated jet to deliver fuel. KInd of like converting your propane furnace from ng to propane. You need more propane to flow to get the same ammount of heat so you just use a bigger nozzle. this setup also comes with an ajustable pressure regulator so that you can fine tune your pressure to get the power output back to what it normaly would be.

propane works at a higher pressure than NG . 14 IWC vs 6 IWC. If you run NG thru. orifaces for propane you will get a poor air gas mix .On the other hand if you run propane thru a NG orfice you will be starving for air . We drill out NG orfices to accomidate propane. I have seem conversions on water heaters that were propane to NG that had soot problems. Note most propane burners on WH are/were cast iron ehere NG were pressed steel. We were not allowed to convert them where a utility decided they could .
My ? is how does the kit accomidate both gases . I'm interested in the conversion for the same reason you did it.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:49:20 AM »

It does it by using an ajustable regulator The idea is to get it running and then tune it till it runs properly by ajusting the pressure. My kit came with an even an optional second regulator. the supplied one works for either ng or or high pressure propane (right out of a 100lb or less tank) i also bought a low pressure regulator that cost an additonal 20 bucks that allows you to hook up to a propane hog. Hogs have a step regulator on top of them and a second one at your home. I havent got around to installing it yet. To frigging cold! But my plans are to burry a 3/4 inch copper line from the hog to the garage the generator is in. I will run that to the optional regulator. then i also have a couple filled 100lb tanks in the gararge so i will mount the switch fuel regulator and use it with them. I then will have the option of running gas or for most emergency running it off of the 100lb tanks. If shtf ever did happen i could also run it off my hog. But for the most part id like to save that fuel for heat. I dont have NG at my home. But the line goes up to my next door neigbors house so if i got real desperate i could run about 300 ft of pipe from his meter. Ive seen on there sight where guys in emergencys have ran garden hose for a natural gas line. I wouldnt want to rely on that but if a guy had no other choise!

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 01, 2012, 06:26:02 AM

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on January 12, 2012, 12:00:59 AM
i was told this isnt the case. What happens instead is the generator uses a bit more propane that it would gas but the cost of propane is less so its kind of a wash. I had a partner at work that ran his chev pickup on propane because his dad was the local distributor. He said if anything his truck seemed to run even better. It probably would be the case if you ran the gas through the same jet in your carb that you used for gas as it wouldnt pass enough fuel but the propane conversion uses a seperated jet to deliver fuel. KInd of like converting your propane furnace from ng to propane. You need more propane to flow to get the same ammount of heat so you just use a bigger nozzle. this setup also comes with an ajustable pressure regulator so that you can fine tune your pressure to get the power output back to what it normaly would be.

propane works at a higher pressure than NG . 14 IWC vs 6 IWC. If you run NG thru. orifaces for propane you will get a poor air gas mix .On the other hand if you run propane thru a NG orfice you will be starving for air . We drill out NG orfices to accomidate propane. I have seem conversions on water heaters that were propane to NG that had soot problems. Note most propane burners on WH are/were cast iron ehere NG were pressed steel. We were not allowed to convert them where a utility decided they could .
My ? is how does the kit accomidate both gases . I'm interested in the conversion for the same reason you did it.

hillbill · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2012, 02:06:43 AM »

about 3 or 4 yrs ago i traded for a diesel 4500 kw generator. ive not experienced diesel ever going bad over time the way gas does.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:25:48 AM »

supposidly diesel does deteriorate over time but much slower then gas and id guess its more of a problem for something like one of the new computer operated trucks then it would be for something basic like a gen motor. It would proably run on about anything. I thought of going diesel but it would just be a third fuel id have to keep around. I allready have propane and lots of things that use gas. No doubt though for normal everyday use a diesel generator would be the cheapes to operate and probaly the most durable over the long haul.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:16:56 AM »

If you keep diesel clean and without water in it, it will last for years and years. I've burned diesel that was more than 10 years old and it worked fine. If it gets water in it, bacteria will grow and make a slimey mess that will plug your fuel system, but i've never had that happen.

I keep some diesel around, and i can't see any difference on how my diesel motors run between old or new diesel in anything i run it in. Thing about diesel motors, i can put used motor oil in it, or about any other kind of oil in it, and everything i own, runs just fine! None of my diesels are high tech puterized, and i plan to keep it that way just to keep the problems to a mininum...

With diesel haveing the MOST BTU's of energy per gallon, and with it lasting so well, it's easily the best choise for an extended power outage IF you feel you have to have power.

DM

bilmac · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:19:29 AM »

Propane will store better than the other fuels. I think I've heard that it stores about forever. By running off your heating tank you are assureing that it is being rotated anyhow.

You should check to see if you can plumb it with plastic. I think the last time I talked to a gas man he said they have a plastic line now that meets code. Still have to have metal line going into and out of the ground.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:23:59 AM »

ya when they moved my tank a couple years ago they redid everything in plastic. Problem is the get you anyway. the pipe is alot cheaper then copper but at each end you need a riser conection kit and there like 50 bucks a crack. At least they are thorugh the gas company. the riser goes over the pipe to protect it from the ground up and has the pipe conection on the end. Its plastic on the outside and has a steal wrap in side to protect the line.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:59:38 AM »

in some places (code)and some manfactures will allow use of corrugated stainless steel (CSST) under ground . It is produced with a plastic coating. It is easy to install. Where you exit the ground will need to be protected , often a larger pcs of steel pipe will work. Check installation manual as different brands have different flow rates. I like to over size a bit for cold weather .

hillbill · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:19:59 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 02, 2012, 04:16:56 AM

If you keep diesel clean and without water in it, it will last for years and years. I've burned diesel that was more than 10 years old and it worked fine. If it gets water in it, bacteria will grow and make a slimey mess that will plug your fuel system, but i've never had that happen.

I keep some diesel around, and i can't see any difference on how my diesel motors run between old or new diesel in anything i run it in. Thing about diesel motors, i can put used motor oil in it, or about any other kind of oil in it, and everything i own, runs just fine! None of my diesels are high tech puterized, and i plan to keep it that way just to keep the problems to a mininum...

With diesel haveing the MOST BTU's of energy per gallon, and with it lasting so well, it's easily the best choise for an extended power outage IF you feel you have to have power.

DM

those are all the reasons i like diesel also. plus the fact that if i run out fuel ill just go out to the barn and siphon some out of the dozer, backhoe or farm tractors. my honda 5000 watt gen will use about 1 gal of gas per hr. im hoping my diesel gen will run on 2 quarts per hr.even with the higher cost of diesel thats still a pretty good savings. now if i can just figure out how to build a diesel motorcycle!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:49:28 AM »

yup theres no arguing that its the cheapest way to go as to fuel useage. if i had to rely on a generator day to day id buck up for the extra cost of a deisel and get a 275 gallon fuel oil tank. A guy could run one for a long time on that! Problem for me is initial cost. I have about 600 dollars total into this set up and its mostly for emergency use and wont be used much. It was just hard for me to justify what a 6000 watt diesel gen set costs. A guy may kick himself in the but down the line someday but i still have to buy grocerys and justify purchases to the wife

Quote from: hillbill on February 03, 2012, 01:19:59 PM

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 02, 2012, 04:16:56 AM
If you keep diesel clean and without water in it, it will last for years and years. I've burned diesel that was more than 10 years old and it worked fine. If it gets water in it, bacteria will grow and make a slimey mess that will plug your fuel system, but i've never had that happen.

I keep some diesel around, and i can't see any difference on how my diesel motors run between old or new diesel in anything i run it in. Thing about diesel motors, i can put used motor oil in it, or about any other kind of oil in it, and everything i own, runs just fine! None of my diesels are high tech puterized, and i plan to keep it that way just to keep the problems to a mininum...

With diesel haveing the MOST BTU's of energy per gallon, and with it lasting so well, it's easily the best choise for an extended power outage IF you feel you have to have power.

DM
those are all the reasons i like diesel also. plus the fact that if i run out fuel ill just go out to the barn and siphon some out of the dozer, backhoe or farm tractors. my honda 5000 watt gen will use about 1 gal of gas per hr. im hoping my diesel gen will run on 2 quarts per hr.even with the higher cost of diesel thats still a pretty good savings. now if i can just figure out how to build a diesel motorcycle!

Drilling Man · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2012, 02:50:43 AM »

My 15KW generator cost me about $1,200.00 new and i bought a used power shaft for it, for @45.00, i already had the small diesel tractor to run it.

That tractor get's used for gardening and all kinds of other small chores, so it's always ready to go and very useful to have around.

I've had several other gensets, but i thing this one is easily the best way to go...

DM

hillbill · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2012, 03:31:28 AM »

ive sure thought about going the pto route as i have a nice david brown 880 tractor that would prob run on about 3/4 gallon per hour. just havent run across a nice rig yet at a good price.

bilmac · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:00:49 AM »

I think there are safety switches to mount on tractors used in roles like this that will shut them off if bad things like low oil pressure occur.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2012, 12:49:12 AM »

problem i have is if i could come up with the 1200 for the generator which is doubtful. I dont have a tractor so id have to sell my truck to pay for my generator

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2012, 02:17:03 AM »

well the weather was nice yesterday so i installed it. It took about an hour and was an easy conversion. I didnt hook up the hog yet just ran it off of a 100 lb cylinder. Started right up. Ran a bit rough until ajusted. theres a adjustment screw on the supply side of the regulator. After a bit of fine tuning i ran it under load with both gas and propane and sure couldnt tell the differnce in rpm or load capability. Nice kit though EVERYTHING was there. Its rare with something like this that your not running to the hardware store or digging in your parts boxes.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #25 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:32:36 AM »

As far as output goes I believe the governor would make up for any differences in power output gas vs. propane. Another consideration is you aren't paying road taxes on the propane. Thirdly since propane stores indefinitely you can purchase when the price is low and keep it forever.

Startup costs however are steep. If you are in farm country, watch for Anhydrous Ammonia tanks for sale. Easier yet is start visiting fertilizer plants and ask for those with baffles broken inside to use as storage. Change out all the valves, ( be careful as this stuff can kill you hammer dead ) get help if you don't understand what you are getting into. Have a local gas supplier get you set up correctly and now you have anywhere from 1000-1450 gallon tank as cheaply as you are likely to find one.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #26 on:** February 07, 2012, 05:52:57 AM »

Quote from: Empty Quiver on February 07, 2012, 03:32:36 AM

As far as output goes I believe the governor would make up for any differences in power output gas vs. propane.

Sure it will, until the gov is maxed out and the load isn't met. On propane, you will get to that max sooner, because the motor will have a bit less HP on propane.

If your gen set is sized bigger than the load, it won't matter... BUT, if your gen set was maxed out on gas, it won't meet that same load on propane. NG has even less BTU's of energy than propane, so it's another step back as motor fuel.

DM

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #27 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:08:29 AM »

It seems to overcome this by the pressure adjustment built into the regulator. Your supppose to run the generator at heavy load and tune the pressure until you get max rpm. Granted i dont know the exact load but it was heavy and running it on propane or gas when i had it ajusted you sure couldnt hear a differnce in rpm As a matter of fact it almost seems to react to load faster with propane. If it lost any power at all which i doubt it sure isnt enough to really make a real world differnce.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #28 on:** February 07, 2012, 02:32:35 PM »

I think it does make a real world difference...

One reason propane seems so good is, propane is a "high octane" fuel, so motors do like it.

DM

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #29 on:** February 08, 2012, 01:21:24 AM »

I think you may be looking at that a bit wrong. Octane doesnt make a motor run any better. It retards combustion. What it allows is you to run more compression or spark advance without pre ignition or detonation due to the fact that it makes gas burn slower and a bit harder to ignite. Put high octane fuel in a motor that isnt set up (Ie compression raised, timing advanced) and it will actually loose power and burn dirtier. My guess is thats where most of the loss of power when using propane actually comes from. It doesn burn with as much thermal effecientcy as gas has. You can compensate by adding more fuel but eventually your carberators only going to flow enough air to support so much fuel before you are going to be running to rich. I can still remember back when we raced snowmobiles. We ran real high compressions and race gas. We also had high performance trail sleds but they were factory compression ratios. We figured since we had race gas at the shop and it was bought by the sponsor wed run it in our trail sleds to save some money. It was a mistake we didnt make twice. We had problems all day getting our sleds to even start and when the ran they ran like someone snatched 20hp out of them. Now race gas may be an extream example but in this case its not as propane is close to the same in octane.

People have mistakenly belived increased octain automaticaly meant increased performance and milage for years. It was probably the gas companys that conned them into believing it. Your motor will get the most hp and best fuel effiecientcy with the lowest octain fuel the motor will use safely. Unless your motor is computer opererated and that computer will not only back of spark advance when detontation is detected but also increase it past levels set for regular gas (which very few due) using more octain is doing nothing but using more money.

Seems like im going in circles here a bit doesnt it! Im disagreeing with you one time and agreeing with what i disagreed with before. thing you have to keep in mind in all of this is this isnt a race motor. Its a flipping briggs vanguard. Technologicaly right up there with a 1950s v8. Its going to run on about anything and run inefficiently on about anything! I doubt your going to see much change in performance with any fuel. Keep in mind too that most of these generators will put out well more then there rated power. So any loss in power due to fuel will probably not put you below the rated output. Your probably right though if you ran the generator right at the ragged edge it may put out a couple more watts on gas then propane before it stalled out.