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Offline seacoastartillery

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A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« on: January 11, 2012, 06:17:48 PM »
      Mike and I would like to know what you fellows think about us gradually creating an illustrated list of artillery jargon or Cannon Terminology.   Every line of work or hobby or sport has a unique jargon, (language) workers or participants use to describe what they are working with, building or trying to accomplish.   

     Here is a simple example:   You are working for a newspaper and the city editor calls to you, “Hey Jim, come in here and tell me what you think of the Galley”.  If you go in to his office expecting to see a model of a Roman Warship propelled by oarsmen, you’re in trouble, because what he was trying to convey was that he wanted you to see the Final Proof of that day’s paper before publication.
 

     The sole purpose of this Artillery Terms List would be for enlightenment of the members and to make it easier for people new to the hobby to describe what they want to build or buy or enable them to ask a question in such a way that it will get a proper answer rather than more questions which is often necessary.  We simply want to make the proper names of artillery tube or carriage parts readily available for anyone who cares to learn.  That’s it!  Just an aid to better communication, that’s all.

     Well, let us know if this would be helpful.  We will be glad to put some time into it if you guys think it’s worthwhile.  If you don’t, we won’t bother.

Mike and Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 06:35:12 PM »
I think it would be great.  Including such terms as "wheel guard plate" and "elevating screw box".  Carriages too.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 06:54:46 PM »
        Every line of work or hobby or sport has a unique jargon, (language) workers or participants use to describe what they are working with, building or trying to accomplish.   

   

Nomenclature.  It's a great idea.  It would also be interesting to have a list, maybe a sub-list that defines all the common used phrases that not everyone knows the origin of: cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey, went off like a loose cannon, etc.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 07:14:16 PM »
" freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is a great one! I wonder about the origin of the phrase "Fire in the Hold!" Good Idea!
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 09:03:29 PM »
Sounds like a good idea.  I saw a request for something like that just recently.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 12:21:56 AM »
There a a number of illustrations that show feature by feature what's what.

There will be some that have different names for the same feature (as in names derived in different languages).

It might prove useful to identify the sources of each named feature.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline dominick

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 01:56:40 AM »
Great idea!  So when someone writes to me and states, "those things sticking out the sides of the barrel" or "that round thing on the back"  I can refer them to this post.  ;D ;D ;D

Offline flagman1776

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 02:34:07 AM »
I first saw "Fire in the hole" (not hold) quoted by Jeff Cooper c 1970.  He stated it was borrowed from the combat engineers (sea bees), when about to blow an obstruction & to indicate an impending blast.  It has always seemed appropriate to firing a cannon.   

Offline Zulu

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 02:51:28 AM »
Mike & Tracy,
The time you guys give to this forum make it one of my favorite places to visit.  I personally have learned a lot from you.
I like the idea of a "word" list. 
Before coming to this site, I commonly referred to "cap squares" as "trunnion caps".  You pointed out my error and I appreciate it.  :)
Proper spelling is important to me too.  I look forward to your input.
Zulu
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 07:49:10 AM »
     Enough talking!  It's put up or shut up time!  The following is just one example of an artillery term explanation.  We have given this common term the  'Super Deluxe Treatment'.  Only about 9 or 10 cannon part names will get this treatment, but it's fun to see what can be done at least once in a while.  Most terms will have no diagrams or photos attached.  If we gave all of them this attention, it would take 10 years to finish this project.  We plan one wrapping this up in one year max.  So, here goes.  The term is "Bed" as in 'Mortar Bed'.
 
     Please remember that the format for presentation is the incorrect names will come first and the correct Artillery Term will be last.
 
 
 The Term is "BED".   The Mortar Bed is usually a wooden or cast iron supporting structure for a mortar tube which provides broad contact   with the ground which aids the piece in handling recoil and also aids the artillerymen in aiming the mortar.
 
 A visual and text explanation of incorrect and finally correct terms for the Mortar 'Bed' follow:
 
 
 This is a 'Sled'.  It is a type of kick-sled used commonly in Norway.
 
 
 
 
 These Victorian ladies are enjoying the winter sport of 'sledding' on their 'sleds'.
 
 
 
 
 Sometimes mortar beds are called bases.  This is a 'baseball 'base'.
 
 
 
 
 Another 'base' is a machine support 'base'.
 
 
 
 
 Hey, this is a 'bed', a flower 'bed'.
 
 
 
 
 Here is another 'bed'.  "After placing a large precautionary revolver under his pillow, President Theodore Roosevelt used to throw himself vigorously into 'bed' every night."  From The President's Valet which I read years and years ago. Author? Who knows.
 
 
 
 
 Finally, a Mortar Bed!!  From the Cannons-Online website, this is an excellent British Mortar Bed that they made, I believe for an original  tube.
 
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 10:42:07 AM »
    Thanks to all who responded with these good ideas and kind comments.  We will no doubt use some, if not all of them.  We forgot to say in the introduction to this idea that there is one thing that this nomenclature list should not do.  Please remember this:  Using or Not using the actual names of artillery parts and features is strictly up to the member, so no one, not we, nor should ANYONE else prod, tease, or attempt to cause any other member to use "correct" terms.  I may have mentioned the real name of some item in the past, but I stopped that after just two or three, because I asked myself,  "Who are you to dictate anything to anyone?"  Zulu brings up one suggestion of 'Cap Squares' instead of "trunnion caps" which is also joined by "trunnion straps" and "trunnion plates" and "trunnion clamps".  My favorite is "trunnion thingy".  Now That really nails it down, doesn't it!   Enlightenment is the only stated purpose of this glossary and everyone now knows that fact.  Please, Please behave like the adults that you are.
 
      What's the best way to create this list?  We will let the moderators tell us the mechanics of this process so that it has the very least impact on their time.  They have plenty to do without piling on more!!  Whether it is giving us access to this one item in a particular sticky so that we may add terms as we or others suggest them, or some other completely different way, we don't care.  We will tell you all right now that it IS NOT the Purpose of this Terminology List to keep this thread on the front page all the time.  Actually we would prefer that it fade to the back pages unless some really interesting and unusual item is found by someone.

     Also, we would hope to tell you all some really "old time" names for artillery items too.  Was there a special name for the process of placing a thirsty cat in the bore of a cannon for the purpose of detecting flaws?  This is 15th century stuff, so the records are a bit skimpy.  Generally, we have read, it was thought that, if the cat lingered in the bore for more than a few minutes, it was probably lapping up water oozing from cracks within the bore. This was a warning for which the cannoneers were prepared.  Out came the long fuzes and the crew went behind an earthen traverse each time the gun was to be fired.  A term for this?  Who knows.     

    Let's give the moderators as much time as they need to tell us how we should do this.  Thank you all.   

 Mike and Tracy
 
P.S.   We have been studying the origin of the phrase, "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"  for almost 20 years now, so be prepared for a whopper of a post on that one, alone.  As for the commonly heard phrase, "Fire in the hole", you may be surprised about the true origin of that one.  I have a leg up on most of you, in that my father-in-law told me a whole lot about being a "powder man" in the gold and silver mines in western Colorado in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  We also have some 'bkk lernan' on that one too!
     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 10:56:14 AM »
Why don't you re-post with a title like "common cannon terms" or "our Jargon" or " Dic. for Cannoneers", then allow us to post comments and responses behind your initial post.  This then you read and if deemed sufficient or of quality you can edit your initial post and maintain it as such.  This then makes you the sub-mods for the list and if someone wants to cite, give examples or pictures illustrating entries you can place a pointer in the text, i.e. see response ##. 

On other forums we have used this to create personally sponsored list like "Florida members" or "Terms used by such and such".  I would run this by the Mods to make sure your edits don't eat up alot of storage space, but I would imagine you would really decrease their work by initially moderating the list yourself. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline flagman1776

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 11:14:53 AM »
The purpose of language is to communicate, so I would not correct someone who was able to communicate effectively.  In the event of doubt, I'd probably ask if they meant X term & link to the diagram.
I think the diagram should have a numbered key & the chart should list the common aliases.   We all realize that the ancient art of artillery was shared & competed for by many countries & languages.  Best we remember to be inclusive rather than exclusive...  which I have usually found to be the case here.
 
 
 

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 01:08:00 PM »
Using or Not using the actual names of artillery parts and features is strictly up to the member, so no one, not we, nor should ANYONE else prod, tease, or attempt to cause any other member to use "correct" terms.
     

Well, dang!  There goes 3/4 of the use and all the fun of it!  Just so it is done in an obviously comradely way. 

And it's "trunnion square cap thingy."   ;D
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Parrott-Cannon

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 01:11:03 PM »
Yes it would be very useful.  Ballistic terms would be useful.
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. (Thomas Jefferson)

Offline KABAR2

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2012, 01:37:05 PM »
It might be good to break it up into 18th and 19th Centuries
this way the terms for various moldings on an 18th Century cannon won't be lost
if  the discription only showed a 1850/60's era cannon.....
The same with carraiges
Truck carraige, field carrage siege carraige, split trail,  Barbete... etc.etc...
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Offline Soot

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 02:00:37 PM »
These Victorian ladies are enjoying the winter sport of 'sledding' on their 'sleds'.

Ok, what do you call this?

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2012, 02:38:13 PM »
M & T
 
 
Quote
Finally, a Mortar Bed!!  From the Cannons-Online website, this is an excellent British Mortar Bed that they made, I believe for an original  tube.

Oops... I think you meant to title the photo "An 8" mortar on "its bed""   ... or not??
 
GOW

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2012, 02:57:32 PM »
These Victorian ladies are enjoying the winter sport of 'sledding' on their 'sleds'.

Ok, what do you call this?


A sled on a sledge?

Did I win?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline buzz36

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 03:01:05 PM »
great idea
balls tot he walls  is a term used on old steam engine the fly ball govenor was realy working over time

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2012, 05:57:43 PM »
The purpose of language is to communicate, so I would not correct someone who was able to communicate effectively.  In the event of doubt, I'd probably ask if they meant X term & link to the diagram.I think the diagram should have a numbered key & the chart should list the common aliases.   We all realize that the ancient art of artillery was shared & competed for by many countries & languages.  Best we remember to be inclusive rather than exclusive...  which I have usually found to be the case here.     



     Now here is a fellow who really gets it, all of it.  He is right, if you can understand what someone means, then no comment is called for, not even a pointer to the Cannon Terminology List.  Besides better communication,  this artillery dictionary is completely inclusive and will be available to ALL members at a glance.  Non-members are invited to join for Free and start learning immediately.  Thanks Flagman 1776!

     That Canadian snow sled or sledge with a cannon is just that, however we are talking about mortars here and mortars have Beds.

     Gunsonwheels, we deferred to the description that the maker of the mortar bed used, which was correct.  By their description, you can tell that only the Bed was for sale.  The Bed is their creation, not the tube.

     Kabar2, we agree and will even open it to the dawn of the "Age of Artillery".  We recently found a 16th or 17th century cannon drawing with part names denoted.  Ever hear of a "Touch Hole"?  People still use that term even after 300 or 400 years have gone by.

    And for those of you who pointed out specific formats and ways to manipulate the list and place new items in it, let's wait for some guidance from the mods.  I'm sure they will keep it as simple as possible for us and themselves.  Please be patient, we are.

Thank you!

Tracy and Mike





Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline ranger56528

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2012, 06:17:50 PM »
These Victorian ladies are enjoying the winter sport of 'sledding' on their 'sleds'.

Ok, what do you call this?

Its a Sled Bed of course....

Offline BoomLover

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2012, 08:03:51 PM »
 :o ....or, an Alpine rendition of a Bed on a Sled, for "Arctic Conditions", specifically for use above the Arctic Circle....either that..... or....... the "Rocking Horse Cannon", good for one shot per revolution of the Merry Go Round!
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2012, 02:04:16 AM »
What makes a dictionary so useful is its known format of describing unknown words.  This might seem elementary but when thinking about technical terms it becomes very hard to accomplish. 

Term: country or region of origin, time period, branch of service, definition.

You can see how quickly this can run away.  It might be helpful if people added examples of how they would like to see entries. 

Thanks M&T for tackling this job. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline Zulu

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 10:23:02 AM »
Help me with a word.
I have been referring to the platform a stack of cannon balls sit in as a "garland".  I don't remember where I got this and can't find any reference.
If I am misusing the term, I want to know about it.
Zulu
 

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Offline onegreatshot

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 10:38:51 AM »
Zulu if it was brass wouldn't be a monkey? ??? Don't any idea what it would be called made out of wood.  I also would love to see a small booklet of terminology used is the area of cannons mortars and the like?

Offline Double D

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2012, 11:49:22 AM »
So what's wrong with just using the terminology found in say Mullers treatise or perhaps Gibbons or the Artillery Regulations of  War department published by Custer ...the wheel has already been invented.

Offline Zulu

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2012, 11:57:31 AM »
So what's wrong with just using the terminology found in say Mullers treatise or perhaps Gibbons or the Artillery Regulations of  War department published by Custer ...the wheel has already been invented.

So, what is the terminology?  I'd still like to know if "garland" is wrong.
Zulu
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Offline Double D

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2012, 12:15:05 PM »
A shot garland is a nautical term.

Quote
Shot-GARLAND, (epitié, Fr.) a piece of timber nailed horizontally along the ship's side from one gun-port to another, and used to contain the round-shot ready for charging the great guns in battle. For this purpose it is furnished with several semi-globular cavities, corresponding to the size of the cannon-balls which it is employed to contain. http://southseas.nla.gov.au/refs/falc/0611.htm

Brass monkeys are fictitious:

Quote
It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17. southseas.nla.gov.au/refs/falc/0611.html

Offline dynomike1x1

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Re: A Proposed Cannon Terminology List
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 12:33:13 PM »
Maybe this might help. Put a drawing of a complete cannon or mortar w/ numbers and arrow pointing to the part w/an index w/the part name like trunions or ears barrel or pipe.If a piece is different ad another drawing.Just my 2 cents.
 
1. Trunions or ears
 
2. barrel or pipe
 
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