Author Topic: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...  (Read 1891 times)

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Offline ButlerFord45

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Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« on: January 12, 2012, 04:24:37 AM »
I have been reminded in the last week why I hang out in the casting and reloading forums.  Some years ago, I loaded for 44Mag and 45 Colt, at sometime I fired a 44 throught a 45.  There was no problem other than the fact that I let it happen.  I gave my 44 stuff to my daughter, she doesn't shoot enough to justify reloading for so problem solved. 
Last week I made a purchase of a Browning 92 44.  I have plenty of unique, 2400, lil'Gun, 110 and 296, a couple k mag primers, 500 Rem Semi-J Soft point were left on the porch by the mail man this morning.  I have what I believe to be the perfect mold on the hook, just waiting for the rifle so I can slug the barrel which is suppose to be here today.  But Starline is backordered on the brass and it will not be available for another week or two.  So, I thought I would just buy a hundred factory rounds...well, needless to say that they are overpriced but I knew that was going to be the case but looking at the specs for the different loads (and we all know how much companys exagerate their numbers)  muzzle velocities of 240 gr is 1150-1250fps unless you pay more than a buck fifty for each round, only then do you get a real 44 Mag round and then only sometimes.  This crap is nothing but +P 44 Spl!  So I guess the point to my rant is twofold, first, "Thanks for letting me rant and understanding!" secondly, if you happen to see a Lawyer today, would you please kick his azz and tell him thanks from Butler Ford.
 
BF
 
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline keith44

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 05:28:07 AM »
yup over priced, under powered, and mostly inconsistent


They tell me it ain't legal to work out your frustrations on lawyers heads  >:(
keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 05:36:07 AM »
Yea, a lot of the stuff out there has been loaded down.  Fine, if that's what you want, but how can manufacturers defend it by saying "it's in the interest of safety, to many old guns out there," etc., then offer the same bullet weight in a "Premium" load at 200 fps faster?  One good walmart cheap load out there, in regard to muzzle velocity is the basic Remington 180 grain .44 mag loads.  Over 1600 fps, and a muzzle flash that is about as impressive as I have ever seen from a handgun.
 
Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline Swampman

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 05:39:48 AM »
I almost never shoot hot loads in my .44s.  If I buy commerical ammo, it's just to get the brass.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 06:19:35 AM »
Swamp, I don't want to shoot hot loads, I really don't but I do want to shoot true 44mag.  It's my honest opinion that we have been spoon fed the rhetoric long enough we are starting to belive it.  When I bought my first second hand 29 Smith in 1975 factory ammo pushed 240 gr @ or about 1400 fps on up to 1500 + a little depending on the manufacturer.  Out of a 20" barrel that should come up to about 16 to 1800fps and we still aren't at the "hot loading" yet.  If you really tried you could get close to the 2 grand mark.  So, I'm not talking about hot loads, I just want legitimate 44 mag loads without having to pay premium prices for what SHOULD be standard.
 
Easy, at times I enjoy a good light show and our little town actually has a Wally World!  LOL, I'll give them a try (if they have them).
Keith, don't believe everything they tell you!   ;)
 
edited to correct spelling
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 06:35:35 AM »
In the good old days both the .357 and .44 magnums were honest to goodness magnums. Today they are both more or less +P specials.

When I first began shooting the .357 magnum I was buying Browning brand 158 JSP ammo at 1550 fps per the box and by golly recoil from them in my S&W M19 6" felt like they were delivering. These days it's hard to find a 125 factory load that gives that velocity.

Same with the .44 magnum in the old days when ya pulled the trigger ya knew ya had a magnum in your hands. Original specs I believe called for the 240 lead bullet at 1450-1500 fps. Now you get about 1250 or less.

In the case of both the SAAMI pressure levels have dropped from around the 44,000 or so range down to the mid or lower 30,000 range and darn few factory loads even approach that these days.

I've been loading the Hornady 240 both XTP and pre-XTP variety and Nosler 240 JHP over 24.0 grains of W296 for at least 30+ years and the Hornady factory loads to me at least feel pretty much the same recoil wise. I've run them over my chrono a few times in the past and have never yet gotten the velocities that folks who own Ruger guns claim to be getting with same loads. I don't recall specifically the velocity now but in response to a request by Kevin Ryer of Texas Boars.com long ago I loaded max book loads of four of the magnum powders and ran them across the chrono in my 10-5/8" S&W M29 and as I recall nothing went much over 1400 fps. I'll try to find the data on that and post it some time.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline keith44

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 07:05:48 AM »
One thought on the lower velocities,


I was reading an article in Handloader magazine recently and the author talked about the over use of magnum primers these days. The example he used was .44 Mag when loaded with 2400.  If you use a magnum primer you reach max pressure with less powder.  With less powder there is not as much of the propellant gasses made, and the pressure spikes instead of peaks.  By that I mean there is a rapid rise and fall in pressure instead of a rise and gradual fall off of pressure.  By using standard primers with 2400 they showed that you could use more powder than with magnum primers, and get a more sustained pressure level and reach higher velocities.


So if factories have switched to a hotter primer, and are using less powder to shave a few cents off the cost to produce a hundred rounds that could explain the why. 

keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 08:18:21 AM »
Keith, thanks for the information about 2400 and mag primers.  I did know that and my reference to mag primers were for the 110 and 296 but maybe others that join the thread didn't.  That you would take the time to share is one of the things Bill has tried to instill in members even in the OLD website and what keeps this place head and shoulders above ther rest.   ;)
Bill, that is the load I used on that 29 and the next 5 as well, 24gr 296, 240gr hornady semijacket hollow point. It was devistating on south Alabama whitetail as well as Bowling Pins. Yes, I know, but it wasn't broken and I had no intent to try and fix it. It just shot well, there is not much more you can expect from a load.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »
Coincidentally I've been looking back thru some old magazines lately and ran across an article by Brian Pearce about Elmer Keith and his controversial 600 yard shot on a wounded mule deer.

He did some shooting with an old pre M29 6.5" just like Keith used to make the shot and even found 1000 rounds of the old Remington 240 swaged lead SWC with GC that was the original load.

In the article he stated that the original specs from Remington on it from a pressure barrel was 1570 fps and that in most revolvers it gave more like 1425-1475 fps. That gives one an appreciation of what the .44 Magnum once was.

Keith's load in the 44 special cases gave about 1200 fps with his 250 grain bullet from Lyman 429421 mould. He was happy with that and that is all he was really trying to convince the factories to duplicate. He was of course mighty happy when they exceeded that by another 200+ fps.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline krod47nw

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 01:32:53 PM »
 
 I also have used 24gr 296/110 and a 240 XTP for years.  Now several of the manuals show a max load below 24gr.  This just shows how the lawyers have gotten to the reloading manuals as well.

 
 
Kevin 
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Offline anachronism

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 02:44:06 PM »
Loading data has been effectively neutered over the decades. I too remember when "magnum" meant something. Nowdays they just build bigger guns. I'm currently down loading 44 magnum to help preserve my elderly Mountain Revolver until I can scrape up the money for a real heavyweight. I sort of blame S&W for the emasculation of the 357 & 44 magnums. I've been told it's not true, but I'll always believe it was a result of some of their guns coming unstrung with heavy loads in the '60s, '70s & 80s. Imported guns like Llamas didn't help any either, I still remember test firing a Super Commanche that would pop the cylinder open with every shot. I didn't buy that toad, but made plenty of other gun buying errors.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 03:06:21 PM »
I just bought me an Ideal 429421 mold to roll my own Keith loads.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 03:39:37 PM »
I picked up the rifle this afternoon and some anemic Magtech 240gr (1178fps from a 4" test barrel)  used 3 for function check out back and lost one piece of brass in the snow, reloaded the other 2 5x each working up to the legendary 24 gr 110.  It worked just like I remembered.  Now if the 20-30mph snow would just stop, I may try to empty a few more tomorro.
Swamp, it's hard to beat the Keith bullets, specially the old Ideal molds.  I think I want a gas check, ogive and flat nose on this one, probably a Saeco 432.  It fits what I think I want to a Tee.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 10:00:11 PM »
For factory .44s the Hornady 240 XTP load is very good.  I have pressure/velocity tested it in a 8.4" barreled Contender and velocity tested in my 6.5" Ruger BHFT.  It is loaded almost identically to my own 240 XTP loads which is 24.5 gr H110 under the 240 XTP.  I use WW cases with WLP or CCI 350 primers.  The Hornady factory load runs about 40 fps faster than my own H110 load out of the Contender at 1597 fps and also runs with a bit less psi.  The velcoty out of the 6.5" barreled Ruger BHFT was 1452 fps.  Both loads run under the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum.  Test was done with an Oehler M43 PBL.  Accuracy with either the factory load or my H110 load was as good as it gets with either handgun, 10 shot groups of sub .7" at 25 yards with the Contender.
 
Larry Gibson

Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 01:42:23 AM »
Larry, thanks for bringing this.  I think this is the first time I know of that the actual performance is actually better than advertised.  The listed velocity for the "Hornady Custom Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 240 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point"  is 1350fps. 
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline shot1

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 02:33:57 AM »
In some of my past reading about Elmer Keith and his loads I remember that he stated the use of REGULAR LP primers over MAG primer with 2400 powder. Waaaay back when I was shooting a Ruger BH and RH with 7 1/2" barrels in 44 mag I used 22 grs 2400 and a Sierra 240 JHC bullet. It was pretty powerful and I did not hear any complaints from the deer shot with it. They just dropped dead.  ;D

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 02:08:40 PM »
There is a factory load that does not do too bad that does not cost an arm and a leg. They are Winchester 240 GR Jacketed Soft Points. They are under $40 for 50 at the local Wal-mart and I clocked them right at 1800 fps out of my Marlin 1894. They shoot very well too out of my Marlin and out of a Handi 44 Mag rifle. I have not really tried them out of my hand guns, they all have had hand loads only through them. 

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Offline wncchester

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 02:54:43 PM »
Keith's load in the 44 special cases gave about 1200 fps... He was of course mighty happy when they exceeded that by another 200+ fps."
 
Ol' Elmer has been derided and misquoted so often it's become conventional 'wisdom' that he liked big, heavy and slow bullets.  Not so; Elmer liked big, heavy and FAST bullets!
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Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 03:55:02 PM »
Yep. Liked 44 Spcl above all else too as long as it was to be hand loaded.  "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads"  resides in the Throne Room.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline 41 mag

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 09:58:17 PM »
Interesting post, and very timely as well. I have just finished reading for the 10th or so time a write up in Guns and Ammo dated Jan 1969 titled "Loads for Handguns" by the man himself. I have recenetly gotten into casting my own and in doing research for molds and loads I have read some VERY intersting history on both from the original developers.

In this particular article Mr. Keith speaks about his favorite loads in various calibers and being at the Remington, and at the Smith and Wesson plant in 1953 working on the 44 Mag. It also mentions the fact that Remington was afraid of his heavy 44 Spl load of 18.5gr of 2400 due to the "Triple Lock" strength and that is when they lengthened it by 1/10".

As has been mentioned here, his most preferred load was with 22grs of 2400 under his Ideal 429421 250gr hardcast. I have been there with a similar load, and agree it is one that gets my full respect of the caliber and what it can do. I have also run H-110 up to levels I felt were easily more than enough, back before it was changed over to the same powder as 296. I still have one partial bottle of that sitting on my shelf and it is NOT even directly interchable with 296 data.

I have through the years fired but few factory rounds through my 44, but of the ones that I have run through it that got my attention the most were the 180 and 240gr loads from PMC, back in the early 90's. Either of them would easily top my handloads out of my 7.5" Redhawk. In the past 10 years or so I haven't even been bothered with factory in anything except my 454, and the initial two boxes I had were the Winchester medium loads, and were presented to me with the revolver as a gift. As such I really haven't got a clue as to what or how they are loaded these days. I guess i gave up on factory loads completly, when they, like Nosler, decided that it was better to put half the rounds in a box but charge you as much, or more in some cases, as what they had been for a full box. I haven't shot them myself, but from what I read and hear the Buffalo Bore rounds will get ya a full power load in just about anything they put out. But there again you pay for that premium.

I have used 23.5grs of 296 under the Remington 240gr SJHP fo so long I think my Uniflow simply dials it's self in when I set the box of bullets and tray of brass on the bench. While I do admit to pushing it a bit harder in my earlier days, I sat down at the range one day and worked the loads up in small increments until I could put no more powder in the case, and still seat the bullets to the cannelure. With all else remaining the same, the 23.5 loads I had been shooting, with this particular lot of powder, was not only the most accurate but produced single digit ES. For me that was plenty good as it was shooting 1" groups at 100 with the 4x Leupold on top.

I agree that there have been major reductions in plenty of loads and data over the past decade for sure. Some call it lawyer work some call it better testing equipment and proceedures. Me I just keep plodding along looking for accuracy first, then velocity. When they both come together in one load, well thats just he iceing on the cake.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2012, 11:44:51 PM »
If anyone is interested in reading the Elmer Keith article mentioned above, here it is in PDF form.
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1969_01_Elmer_Keith_Favorite_Load.pdf
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline keith44

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2012, 04:55:25 AM »
Thanks for the link Swampman!!

keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 05:00:21 AM »
Swampman, thanks for the post.  I don't  think I remember this particular article but it is consistant with everything I have read.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Swampman

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2012, 05:57:41 AM »
It would make a good sticky IMO.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline 41 mag

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2012, 09:20:00 AM »
Yep that be the one for sure....

Mine is still in the G&A though and a bit more fragile. LOL

I have a box give to me by a fiend which has from issues from 61-69 in it. I have only been through a dozen or so but they are simply fantastic reading.

Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2012, 11:49:15 AM »
 ;)  Hey thanks to all of you folks for a great read, and great information...It is nice to realize others appreciate and remember Keith and all he has done for the shooting world.... :)

Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2012, 02:59:24 PM »
A lot of Keith's rounds were put thru a friend's flattop Blackhawk by us back in the 60's.  They were a little fierce and we often ended up with 2 cuts from the frame on the web of the shooting hand's thumb and forefinger, and the gun survived the years better than we did.  It is interesting that the original Remington load was a swaged bullet which was used to kill almost everything worth shooting.  Now we have premium and premium premium bullets and the .44 mag. is considered an entry-level magnum.

Offline keith44

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2012, 07:32:50 PM »
... and the .44 mag. is considered an entry-level magnum.


not by those of us who know what it is and what it can do  ;)
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2012, 09:06:14 AM »
... and the .44 mag. is considered an entry-level magnum.


not by those of us who know what it is and what it can do  ;)

+1.  If I want/need more than the .44 Magnum in my Ruger BHFT or Colt AnacondaI pick up a rifle.
 
Larry Gibson

Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: Elmer is rolling over in his grave...
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 09:10:43 AM »
I agree with you guys, but was making the point that with all of the later large caliber magnums, the .44 is at the low end of power.  Larry is right when he says to pick up a rifle if the .44 isn't enough!