Author Topic: .30 carbine (Read 2948 times)

bikerbeans · « **on:** January 13, 2012, 02:29:35 AM »

Hi All,

A friend has lent me his M1 Carbine, post WWII production, to play with and workup a load for it. I have been looking at what is out there for components and see a lot of cast bullets for sale. Is a cast bullet a good idea in this gun or will it cause cycling problems down the road.

thanks

BB

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:29:03 AM »

Freinds and I have put a lots of cast bullets thru our M1's in year's past and have never had any problems with cycling. All we used back in the 60's and 70's was wheel wieghts for all of our casting.

Victor3 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »

The MI has a gas port in the barrel. I never use anything but jacketed bullets in any gun that has a port. May work fine for all I know but I've heard enough stories of ports getting plugged with lead to not want to chance it.

RaySendero · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2012, 05:09:02 AM »

BB,

My factory dulplicate load for the Rem 110 FMC is:

Rem case
Rem 110 FMJ bullet
Rem 6.5 small rifle primers
and Hodgdon H110 powder

Some reloading manuals call for magnum primers in some caliper pistol loads when using H110 but not in the 30-M1 for some reason I don't know. I can add - That I've never had any problems with those std SR primers in reload described above.

tacklebury · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2012, 02:45:42 PM »

I like the Hornady 100 gr. 1/2 jacket bullet with a book minimum load of H110. This is still a good hot load, but very comfortable and light recoiling in mine. I also shot them out of a 7.5" Blackhawk and got sub 3" groups at 40 yards with the same load.

100 GR. SPR SP

Hodgdon

H110

.308"

1.625"

14.5

2075

28,200 CUP

15.5

2202

36,100 CUP

Bullet Weight (Gr.)

Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.

C.O.L.

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2012, 06:39:39 AM »

I've shot mostly Hornady 1/2 jackets. A Lyman 130 gr. gas check cast bullet was the #2 favorite load, both loads were with 2400 powder. The carbine I had in the 60's and 70's would shoot within 2" at 100 yd with a scope. Getting rid of it was stupid, especially since it was a Winchester

bilmac · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:08:57 AM »

I have been getting the feeling that I should have a black rifle. What do you fellers think of the carbine for home place defense? If you can shoot 2" groups at 200 yds. then you could probably make hits on a man sized target at 300 yds. Maybe not every shot, but this is a fast shooting auto, you could surely make it real hot at that range.

How much do they cost these days? I hardly ever see one at gun shows

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:24:45 AM »

For home defense all I need is 20 ft.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:54:41 AM »

bilmac,

I saw some post WWII models at a gunshow yesterday with asking price in the $400 range. I think the real ones are a lot more $$$$.
Thanks for the loads and other info. Soon as I can get a couple of good deals on the reloading equipment & components I will be on my way to the range and see how this little autoloader works.

BB

S.S. · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:28:20 PM »

plenty for home defence.

Bravo 51...Over · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2012, 06:59:43 PM »

Over the past 40+ years, I've had a number of carbines come and go. Currently, I have a 1-44 dated Inland and an early Universal. For close in use, the carbine is an excellent choice but be sure to use soft point bullets. Corbon makes a self defense round that has been given good results for defensive use. I've taken a number of deer with the Universal and loaned it to a friend who took several hogs off of his place, one sow pushed over 200 pounds so I have confidence it would handle a two legged predator. My hand load: 15 gr. of H110 / Remington 110 gr. sp / Winchester sr primers / MV: 1960 / COL: 1.650. This load has shown no signs of over pressure and functions well in both rifles. Use standard precautions and work up slowly in your rifle as your results may be different.

saddlebum · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:23:32 PM »

Veral Smith's reply to my question, (below), might be of interest to you.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193888.0.html

Victor3 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2012, 01:24:08 AM »

Quote from: bilmac on January 16, 2012, 07:08:57 AM

What do you fellers think of the carbine for home place defense?

How much do they cost these days?

Massad Ayoob wrote that he likened the M1 Carbine to a 357 Mag rifle.

Here's an article you might find interesting...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_47/ai_74033105/

Cost is highly variable depending upon condition, originality, rarity, date of manufacture and which company made the gun. Mine's a 1943 Underwood that would go for ~$800 today. I haven't noted what I'd call a decent & shootable milsurp carbine (of any manufacture) that sold for less than $400 for at least 15 years. I have seen a few nice Universals (commercial guns) go for less than that though.

One good thing about the carbines is that US military ammo was never corrosive-primed, so many still have nice bores.

bilmac · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2012, 04:38:22 AM »

Wow 130 gr bullet at 2000fps that is getting close to 762X39 ballistics. I didn't think the little gun could put out that much energy.

With the prices I am hearing I guess I will just see what shows up first an M-1 or a Mini 14. This would be my third mini, I didn't keep the other two but then I was disappointed because of the accuracy. I expect that accuracy would be similar between the two guns, good enouh to protect a couple hundred yards, just not good enough to be a good coyote rifle.

Victor3 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2012, 11:39:30 PM »

I bought a Mini-14 (Ranch rifle version) right when they came out (1983?). For ~20 years - when Filipino and Chinese 5.56 was dirt cheap - I put more rounds through it than any other CF rifle I've ever owned. Reason I sold it about two years ago was because I found I was always taking the M1 carbine out instead. I have 1000's of cases and bullets I received from a friend who passed some years back, and with a head for my XL650, reloading is cheap and easy.

The M1 and Mini-14 have a similar feel. Accuracy with either is nothing to write home about in my experience, with a slight nod to my Ranch rifle. Neither have been more than plinkers to me. However, two of the best CF plinkers I've owned. Very reliable and loads of fun.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2012, 01:09:53 AM »

Quote from: woodchukhntr on January 16, 2012, 07:24:45 AM

For home defense all I need is 20 ft.

For HD a Winchester HP would be a good choice. I have killed several deer with the carbine over the years turkeys also ( legal in Va. to do so). The carbine is a gun best limited to 100 yards for self defense. It works well and in other parts of the world it is still a gun many choose over others. Its size and weight makes it handy. Its mag capacity make it capable of alot of fire power in a small package. Its also known for going thru auto bodies and glass . Some report it will pass thru. a level two vest . The new ammo on the market addresses the lack of expansion noted in earlier ammo and makes the carbine a better choice today than ever before. One thing that is positive is its lack of flash. It seldom causes a loss of night vision. Its lack of recoil makes follow up shots easy also. It is interesting that some of the first night vision scopes were mounted on M3 carbines . Wisdom of the day was to shott it full auto at the target.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2012, 01:55:06 AM »

There are some jacketed soft point bullets that closely resemble the shape of the standard ball ammo. I'll try to dig some out later tonight to give you specifics. The closer you come to the original load the better you can expect the cycling to be. Moving to a soft point will improve terminal performance, obviously.

You can squeeze a little more accuracy out of the carbine, but it's no 'sniper rifle'. A little acra glass under the lug on the stock where the rear of the action hooks in does wonders. That little bit of slop between the wood and the metal lets the action shift a tad under recoil. Bed that little lug and you will (usually) notice a little improvement for verry little expense or time.

Kahr is making new M1 Carbines. Last I knew (a few years ago) they were in the $600 range. Not a collectable, but a brand spankin new US made gun. Not bad, I thought.

A little side digression on the .30 carbine round. About 15 years ago I was at the SHOT show. One evening I met a gun designer from Isreal and we got talking guns. (quite a bit of gun talk happens at the SHOT show) Anyway, he was there promoting his new gun which was a little bullpup in 30 carbine. He was telling me all sorts of benefits of his new gun. I asked why he chambered it in 30 carbine, which is kind of looked down on among rifle rounds. He told me that US gun writers and other such experts poo-poo the 30 carbine round but in Isreal it's well regarded. They have lots of trouble and the 'collateral damage' may be the soldier's own family. It's a built up place and you sometimes have to fight hard people in areas with families and homes. Not good. The 30 carbine doesn't go as far as 5.56 but punches vehicles and vests better than any 9mm ever will. His design didn't become as popular as the P90 by FN (I've never seen this guy's gun since that show) but the principal is strikingly similar. Point being, 30 carbine is not a cork gun. Loaded with soft points you can take some game (I'd go bigger for bear) and you can expect better penetration than an auto pistol will give you and a better hit probability on targets beyond pistol distance.

Lots of writers dismiss the carbine. None of the old timers I've known who carried one for keeps (including my grand father in the Pacific during WWII) seemed to dislike it. I was once told that the M1 carbine is small enough and light enough to reach over the top of a hole and shoot one handed and powerful enough to do some damage when it hits; while still being good enough for some aimed shooting like a rifle. It doesn't stack up favorably against a rifle, but it's way better than most submachine guns. Now, that doesn't really translate well into today's civillian world of shooting (I'm not about to shoot one handed at targets I can't see well) but it was an observation shared with me by a man who came by it honestly so I figured you may like to hear it too.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2012, 06:43:11 AM »

I've always really liked the M1 Carbine and have put many a .30 Carbine round down range from lots of M1 Carbines. I've not only owned several (still have 3) but I've had access to lots of them in the military. I've shot thosands upon thousands of cast bullets through lots of them including M2s on FA. On one of them gave any problems with the gas port and that was because of a rough edge on the port. Once fixed it didn't lead any more either. PB'd cast bullets shoot ok up to 1600 fps but are iffy above that. GC'd cast bullets of 100 - 130 gr work very well in the 1800 - 2000 fps range when loaded over H110. The Lee 120 gr bullet is a good one to use but the FN 311316 or the SWC 313631 are the cat's meow in the 1900 - 1950 fps range for varmint calling (coyote). Good solid bedding is critical to getting the best accuracy from the M1 Carbine. Most in good condition and properly bedded will shoot 2 -3 moa with quality ammo (milsurp is "quality" where accuracy counts BTW).

For HD the Winchester HP load, as mentioned, is an excellent one. I've used thousands of the Hornady 100 HJs at 1950 fps and they are a top performer accuracywise and terminally. I've killed 7 deer with that bullet using the M1 Carbine. However, for HD and personal protection the 90 gr Hornady .308 XTP is deady when loaded to 200+ fps over H110. BTW; I used an M2 carbine in the late SE Asian war games and as long as I put the bullet where it belonged it did the job. I never used the FA in combat, always used semi. I've all the confidence in a properly bedded M1 Carbine to defend me and my family in an Urban environment.

Larry Gibson

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2012, 06:53:36 AM »

I had one box of Win ammo that was full jacket with a small hole at the tip . It had profile of a standard FMJ. Had some in 30-30 also. Both worked well on deer. One note my carbine like the M1 I shot worked better with lubriplate instead of oil in winter , I use it year round .

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:58:41 AM »

Quote from: Larry Gibson on January 19, 2012, 06:43:11 AM

PB'd cast bullets shoot ok up to 21600 fps but are iffy above that.

WOW! Cast bullets at 21600 fps! What load did you use?

All seriousness aside, what velocity did you mean?
Sorry, Larry, I just had to do that

saddlebum · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2012, 03:20:43 PM »

In speaking about the accuracy of the carbines, it should be noted that some came with 2 groove barrels and some with 4 grooves. The 4 groove barreled ones are more accurate. Something to keep in mind when shopping for one.

Victor3 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:06:34 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 19, 2012, 06:53:36 AM

One note my carbine like the M1 I shot worked better with lubriplate instead of oil in winter , I use it year round .

They changed over to lithium grease on the M1 because they found that water was washing out the oil previously used, causing rifles to jam.

I don't use my Garand or carbine in rain, but I still grease them even though they've functioned fine for me with oil. Most mechanisms similar to how these rifles are designed will see less wear over time if a higher viscosity lube (like lubriplate) is applied to the working surfaces.

Mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** January 20, 2012, 12:40:00 AM »

Ummmm, guys: self defense is up close and real personal - 10-15'. Home defense is almost as up close and personal, about as far away as the end of your hallway.

Self defense and home defense are not measured in terms of groups at 100-300 yds, they are measured in terms of feet, so your self defense rifle need not be a 200 yd tack driver, nor should it be any more expensive than necessary. I think you would have hell to pay trying to convince a DA or Judge that you had to shoot the 'perp' or 'home invader' at the 200 yd mark so you didn't have to worry about him kicking down your door while you were trying to reload.

Home and personal defense needs can be met quite nicely with a inexpensive pump shotgun, one that can be inexpensively surrendered to the police when they respond to your 911 call, and not missed.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2012, 01:26:24 AM »

Mikey the trend these days is to use enough power to get the job done but not to damage people beyond the target. I have read where the police carbine is taking over the long gun role in many places as it offers better control since only one bullet is released instead of many . The 30 carbine is less powerful than a 223 rem and more than a 9mm both of which see use as a PC. As for cost , it would seem more important to buy good insurance the first time but that is a personal choice. And I have always advocated the shotgun as tool of choice for HD. But with the laws making you responsible for all down range damage you cause even though you were defending your life the 30 carbine seems a fair alternative.

smokehouserex · « **Reply #24 on:** January 20, 2012, 02:39:19 AM »

Hello bikerbeans:

Years ago, I had a friend in the reloading business, he told me he had a customer in AZ. that used to order loaded rounds regularlly, 30carb. with lead bullets. His regular order was 10,000 rds. each time. So by that I would think it should be OK. His lead bullets were med. hardness, just guessing but probably about 16 brnl., I have shot thousands of them and have never experienced excessive leading with various bullets but I have not shot any 30carb.
I think they will be fine with properly hardness of the casting lead.
IIRC he told me that this was before the Gun Control Laws implimented in 1968.
HM

Mikey · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2012, 01:44:23 AM »

Shootall: The basis for 'using enough power to get the job done' is one of the problems with the militarization of the police forces, and the preference of using the rifle over the handgun by many police agencies. Our local Sheriff's Dept. instructs and trains its officers to use the rifle (M16/M4) beyond 25 yds and I am not so dang sure that I would want to have to call for help to have someone armed like that to show up. My thought is that if they cannot control a pistol for a 26 yd shot how much better are they gonna be with a rifle. I also believe that the term 'police carbine', as currently used by law enforcement agencies as a more 'pc' applied terminology (carbine sounds better than 'rifle') is actually the same M4 type rifle our troops currently use.. And truly, if you need a rifle I wonder if you cannot make due with a scoped 30-30 in place of the M16/M4

But anyhow - for the carbine (M1 that is) - the reason I advocate a shotgun is due to the overpenetration the carbine is known for. Consider the 7.62x25mm Tokarev pistol round - roundly criticised for its overpenetration and the potential danger to the innocent behind whatever you are shooting at. If over penetration with a 85-88 gn .308 slug at 1400'/sec is a problem, wouldn't you think the 30 Carbine with a 110 gn 308 bullet at 1900'/sec might suffer the same problem.

Also, most shotguns are patterned at 40 yds, which means that at 25-26 yds your shot group/pattern will be tight enough to most likely place all the shot into the target and 'enough power to get the job done' is what I think of when I load slugs into the tube. And you are quite right about cost, and there is little more cost effectiveness than a Mossberg or Remmy pump I believe. And once again you are so dang right about the downrange responsibilities but that is why I would advocate for the shotgun. My 2 cents worth.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2012, 03:00:28 AM »

I don't want to go too far down the road of threadjacking, but I'll travel it a little.

Different people's situations may dictate different defensive needs. For example, my primary 'need a gun in the middle of the night' situation involves four legged chicken thieves at distances beyond my pistol craft. A carbine may not be apropriate for some people, but it doesn't seem totally out of line from my perspective. It all depends what one's 'threat picture' looks like.

The OP is working up a load for a friend who wants to be able to use his carbine for home defense. He hasn't said that his friend will use it to the exclusion of a good handgun (excellent choise) or a good shotgun (even more excellent choise) he said that his friend wants to be able to use it for defense. All messages of caution regarding overpenetration are worth mentioning and I hope that the OP passes this along to the carbine's owner. That said I don't think we need to throw a wet towel over the idea of a carbine for defense because it's the OP's buddy who has eyes on his situation. It may look like a non starter based on what some of us see around us, but we are not him.

Maybe armed felons are less plentiful than coyotes on his property. I hope so.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2012, 06:17:52 AM »

Quote from: woodchukhntr on January 19, 2012, 07:58:41 AM

Quote from: Larry Gibson on January 19, 2012, 06:43:11 AM
PB'd cast bullets shoot ok up to 21600 fps but are iffy above that.
WOW! Cast bullets at 21600 fps! What load did you use? All seriousness aside, what velocity did you mean?
Sorry, Larry, I just had to do that

Pretty cool, huh? LOLs

Thanks for the "catch".

Larry Gibson

Victor3 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2012, 08:38:03 PM »

Quote from: Mikey on January 21, 2012, 01:44:23 AM

My thought is that if they cannot control a pistol for a 26 yd shot how much better are they gonna be with a rifle.

Statistically speaking, cops having equal training time with both handgun and rifle are much more likely to hit their target with a rifle.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2012, 07:24:52 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on January 21, 2012, 08:38:03 PM

Quote from: Mikey on January 21, 2012, 01:44:23 AM
My thought is that if they cannot control a pistol for a 26 yd shot how much better are they gonna be with a rifle.

Statistically speaking, cops having equal training time with both handgun and rifle are much more likely to hit their target with a rifle.

Training time aside, it's just easier to use a rifle.

According to the legend, thats what lead to the creation and adoption of the little carbine in the first place. Most guys, particularly guys who aren't trained and practiced 'front line' soldiers can't shoot a hand gun to save their lives. Saving their lives being exactly what they need a gun for in the first place, the Army called for a little gun that was less to lump than a 'real' rifle and easier to shoot well than a pistol. Plan being to give non-combat soldiers a little something. Just in case. Or so goes the story. The little carbine was so handy that it became so popular with combat soldiers that it became (suposedly) the most widely manufactured US rifle of the war.

While I share the discomfort with the militarization of America's police I do think that a patrol rifle with the right loads (IMO, frangables or hollow points) is a good thing for policemen to have and practice with. .223 hollow points are more effective than pistol bullets and less prone to over penetration through housing materials. They are just less likely to go through a house but more likely to put an armed meth tweaker right down.