Author Topic: Opinions on the 10mm. (Read 1869 times)

kciH · « **on:** January 18, 2004, 11:32:56 PM »

I've been a big fan of the 10mm for some time. I witnessed it being turned into a long 40 S&W, before the 40 S&W existed, and wonder what shooters who have used it think of the round as it was loaded by Norma. Just another failing of the FBI in my opinion. I look at it as the the second best round you can put in a 1911, right after the original. I realize it's available in revolvers, even have a few, but don't see it as it's forte. Is a 200gr bullet at 1200+ from a 5" barrel a reliable deer-getter out to 50+ yards in your experience? How about a 135gr HP at 1500+ for a good vermin round? All that in a VERY packable pistol? I don't see it's optimum role as a self-defense round, although it's more than capable in that role. I see it as a GREAT outdoorsman's round in a good 1911. It easily exceeds the .357 Mag, acknowledged by many as possibly THE most versatile handgun cartridge, and all in the superb 1911 package. Before you attack that previous statement, take into acount the size of the handgun. A .357 with a 3" barrel isn't a .357 in a 8" revolver.

I obviously have some notions about the round already, what do my fellow shooters think of it?

Savage · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2004, 07:03:30 AM »

My dealer is currently looking for an EAA Wonderfinish 10mm full size for me. I have shot the Glock 20 and 29, and really like the 20. I have some experience with a couple of Delta Elites as well. I handload so I won't be limited to castrated ammo. The performance of the heavier bullets at 1200fps+ would make a heck of a field gun, in my opinion. Don't own a 40 S&W because there's nothing it can do that the 9mm won't do as well, and the 45 ACP won't do better. Again, just my opinion! Later on I may get a mdl 20 as my duty gun is a mdl 21. I could carry these interchangeably in the same duty gear. I don't see the need for a revolver in this chambering, as I have 44mag/45LC/357s in revolvers already. The 10mm might just be the most versatile cartridge chambered in an autoloader! With a simple barrel change you could even shoot the 40 Short & Weak for plinking.
Savage

unspellable · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2004, 07:18:55 AM »

In it's original loading the 10 mm was simply too hot for social purposes, too much recoil. Loaded down to 40 S&W levels, you might just as well have a 40 S&W. It was also chambered in a couple of pistols that just were not up to handling it. That didn't help.

It's easy to build a dual caliber pistol in 9 mm/40 S&W as the 40 S&W was designed to work on a 9 mm platform to begin with. An honest 10 mm pistol would probably have too heavy a slide to work well with the 40 S&W even with a reduced recoil spring. My idea of a dual caliber would be 357 SIG/10 mm.

As far as I'm concerned, it seems to have missed its real calling as a field cartridge. Too bad as there really isn't much out there in self loading pistols for field use. Bought mine for shooting pigs. Ought to do well from small pigs on up to deer. The discontinued Winchester Black Talon 10 mm round proved to be better on deer than for social purposes.

In a full load the impulse is pretty high, so it's abusive to pistols not designed for it. Ruger declined to offer it as they felt it was too hot for their existing designs and not enough market to justify starting from scratch.

I first bought a 10 mm Glock for field use. (Don't care for Glocks for social puposes, the safety system or lack thereof, bothers me.) I then acquired a S&W but the front sight blade was wrong and it wouldn't shoot to point of aim with the rear sight adjustment all the way to one end.

Savage · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2004, 09:13:08 AM »

Actually the mdl 20s I have shot with the .40 barrel functioned quite well with the factory mdl 20 recoil spring. The recoil of the mdl 20 with the factory 10mm Silvertip ammo feels about like the 185gr +P loads in the mdl 21. That is, not at all uncomfortable. The primary reason it failed as a primary for the FBI was due to it's size in comparsion to the 9mm and the lack of proper training to handle the small increase in recoil. This is exactly why the 45ACP was not in the running as well. What you have now is the 40 S&W 135/155gr which performs like the 9mm in its heavier bullet weights and the 185 gr that performs like the lighter bullets in 45ACP. Now you have the special units going to the 45ACP. AND everybody's happy!! Well at least I am, I have a place for them all.
Savage

New Hampshire · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2004, 12:19:08 PM »

I am of the firm belief that the 10mm is making a (well desreved) comeback. EAA and a bunch of other companies are offering pistols for both hunting and self defense in this chambering. Look for more good things to come.
Brian M.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2004, 12:58:44 PM »

The 10mm is growing in popularity again. It won't replace the .45 acp, but it's not going anywhere. I shoot alot of 10mm from my Glock 20. All power levels function fine including .40 S&W (10mm special) with the conversion barrel. In a 1911 frame with a good trigger it should be outstanding. I havn't hunted with it yet, but many report exellent results on deer with bullets ranging from 175 gr Silvertips to 200 grain gold dots and softpoints. Which brand of 1911 are you looking at? For top end 10mm ammo Double tap is the place to start. Corbon has a heavy (200 gr) soft point loaded hotter than their self defense ammo. I like the 175 gr Winchester Silvertip as a general purpose round

kciH · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2004, 01:53:32 PM »

Hammerhead,
Indeed, the 10mm in a 1911 with a good trigger in a good pistol is phenonmenal. I load most all of my own ammo, but have a small cache of Norma factory ammo for comparison purposes. One bullet, for handloaders, that shouldn't be overlooked is a good 200gr hard lead SWC style bullet. This bullet has the flat nose and full diameter sharp driving bands that make cast bullets work so well in the big bores. I'm not saying it's grizzly medicine, but it certainly has the goods for deer with the all-important shot placement. If it will feed in your pistol, as it does in my Kimber, I think it will prove to be an excellent hunting load. I like to shoot alot, so the premium ammo suppliers don't make economic sense for me, but it is great to see that commercial producers are bringing the 10mm back to it's original power levels.

I know that STI will make you a 1911 in 10mm, for a price, but they are pistols of quality equal to the price. Dan Wesson has the 10mm in their 1911 also, initial reports are that build quality in their 1911 line is quite good. Kimber made a limited run of them in the 10mm Target II Stainless this year, there are probably still some available. It will be interesting to get some feedback from shooters using the round in the full-size EAA Witness. I had a compact and it's one of the few pistols I've ever disposed of, I had poor results with it and they wouldn't stand behind it. I'm not a big Glock fan, I don't question the performance mind you, but I came close on several occasions to buying one in 10mm. I've shot most of the Glocks at one time or another, if I ever own one it will be a 10mm. My notion is that it is best in a fully supported barrel, whatever auto you put it in.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2004, 02:08:03 PM »

KciH;Glad to hear it. There is a Kimber 10mm sitting on my dealers shelf, I've been giving a close look. I like my Glock, but the triggers.... How has your reliability been? Do you know if they will fit a .40 barrel? I've been shooting CCI blazer 200 tmj's. I get them by the case for $120.00.

kciH · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2004, 02:35:39 PM »

You should probably just buy the Kimber while you can. I realize it's relativley expensive, but it's worth it in my opinion. Mine hasn't hiccupped yet, but it's only got about 750 rounds through it thus far. I'd imagine they will fit a .40 S&W barrel, but I don't see the point if you already have a Glock in .40.

The great thing about the Kimber, and possibly the DW, is that with the lighter bullet loads at 10mm levels, you really don't have to do much sight adjustment to ring the bell at 100 yards. From what I've seen so far with mine with a good load, it's all my fault if I can't keep it on a paper plate at 100 yards. I'll be anxious for spring and some outdoor shooting again, without the shivering. I never really feel I imporove any if I'm limited to 25 yards, and the noise in the indoor range doesn't help any! A lot of people do seem somewhat inquisitive when you're shooting a 1911 that throws a good fireball on the indoor range. You see them kind of nonchalantly picking up your brass to see what you're shooting.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2004, 03:15:45 PM »

KciH;
Thanks, I think you just cost me about $700. (the Kimber)
I've been thinking about a 10mm carbine, mabey I'll get the Kimber and turn the Glock into a carbine with the Mech Tech CCU. I've got an expesive HK target pistol I might use as trade in. That Kimber sure has nice sights and trigger.
P.S. Shiver? Nebraska?

kciH · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2004, 04:12:56 PM »

Hammerhead,
I spent my first 25 years in the Twin Cities area, spent lots of time up north as well. It does get plenty cold down here, but not like there. Unfortunatley, it's been real warm in between the cold this year, kind of spoils the ice fishing.

Let me know how you like the Kimber if you get it. I'm sure you will.

Mikey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:47:03 AM »

kciH: The 10mm bore is one of my favborites. Your 10mm 200 grainer at 1200+'/sec is more than adequate for whitetail at 50 yds. So is the 135 gner at whatever'/sec. In the straight 10mm case you can power a 170 gn SWC or a 180 gn sp to better than 1300'/sec and that is quite adequate for whitetail. Any of the faster flyin' ashtrays are good personel defense rounds, although the 170 gn swc will go t&t at at least 50. I consider the 10mm a great field gun. It is adequate for black bear with the heavier loads.

The Kimber is an excellent sidearm - but, if you are goin' to rock and roll with a lot of hot 10mm loads, get yourself a 22 lb recoil spring kit from Wolff - it will make it a lot easier on you and the pistol. HTH. Mikey.

unspellable · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:56:24 AM »

S&W chambered the 10 mm in a revolver. Just occured to me that might make a decent pin gun as opposed to whacking the rear off a model 29 cylinder to take the 44 Jaguar wildcat. (A rimless 44 mag. Pin shooters with revolvers like half moon clips big time.)

kciH · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2004, 06:35:22 PM »

Icantspellyyourname,
Why mess with customizing, unless of course it's for fun, for pins in a revolver. My M29 Classic Hunter with a .44 Special will clean a table of pins as well as any wildcat. Why on earth would you need a half moon for pins? Has something changed that I've not seen here in the backwater of humanity? Five pins, six shots, seems like plenty insurance to me!

The 10mm S&W wheelgun is a mighty fine revolver, especially when they made it in a 5" barrel. If you can do business with them in good concious, more power to ya. For outdoor duty, I'd just as soon tote a .41 Mag for that size of piece. The .41 will go down to a 10mm, and up VERY near as far as a .44, all in the same size package. Those are a handloaders statements...before the arguments roll in.

unspellable · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2004, 02:26:14 AM »

I'm not a pin shooter myself and not knowledgable on the subject. But I once read an article about the 44 Jaguar wildcat. The point of the excercise seemed to be a rimless 44 mag with halfmoon or full moon clips for fast reloading. Maybe a timed event with more than five pins? In any case the 10 mm S&W revolver uses clips without any modifications.

They were loading the 44 Jaguar with a big hollow point with saw toothed edges to grip the pins when it hit off center.

For field use, a 41 Mag is probably the easiest solution for a revolver in the same power range as the 10 mm, or for that matter the 10 mm S&W if you can find one. By the way, I've seen a two cylinder Ruger Blackhawk with 10 mm and 38-40 cylinders.

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2004, 03:58:17 AM »

guys, I would love to see S&W bring back the old M19, but in 10mm and to see them chamber the old M27/28 in the same. They should offer a couple of different bbl lengths, too: 3.75", 4", 5" and 6". A 10mm/M19 in 2-4" would make a very nice carry piece. I don't have any qualms with the 41 mag, but leave that as a magnum field gun. The 10mm in either a K or N frame without all the underneath bbl stuff seems to be a great caliber/gun combo for personal, sport and field use. But, this is just my opinion and is open to rebuttal, maybe :-D ......................... Mikey.

Savage · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2004, 05:09:32 AM »

Mikey,
The 10mm would be a little much in the "K" frame. I shoot mostly 38s in mine and it's ok for a limited quanity of .357. I think the "L" frame would be about ideal. The cylinder wall thickness jof the 19 would be real "iffy" if you bored the cylinder out to .40. Dosen't take that much of the full power .357 stuff to shoot the mdl 19 loose as it is. I'd want the extra safety margin of the "L" frame at least.
Savage

unspellable · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2004, 08:14:37 AM »

The 10 mm would be just too much for the old Model 19. Aside from the cylinder wall thickness and shooting loose, I'd fear forcing cone cracks.

How about revolvers other than S&W?

But as long as you're going to bring it back, chamber it for 32-20, I could run some real hotrod loads in that! Would outperfrom the 32 Mag no sweat!

The first K frame, the M&P, when first designed, was intended to take the old 32-20 and the new 38 Special as its two chamberings. The Model 19 descends there from. The 32-20 was the reason the cylinder was so long if you've ever wondered why the Model 19 will take a longer OAL than any other 357 revolver.

kciH · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2004, 02:10:56 PM »

unspellable,
I've got the Ruger Buckeye convertible in both 10mm/38-40 and 32Mag/32-20, very nice revolvers to shoot. The S&W 610 is not all that hard to find, which is there N-framed six shooter of the 10mm persuation. It's a current production revolver with a 4" barrel, so all you need to do is just buy one if you want it.

The 32-20 in the buckeye, with the 115-120gr bullets will match or exceed the .357 Magnum with like bullet weights when loaded appropriatley. If you sight it for 25 yards, it's still flat enough to hit a popcan at 100 yards.

People often compare the 10mm and the .41 Mag to one another, which is a not very accurate if you take into account what the .41 will do. The initial LE loads for the .41 Mag are similar to the current 10mm/40 S&W loadings, there is no mistake about that. Since the .41 was designed for LE work and the LE loads are VERY close to the two autoloader rounds, it's proof positive that it's proponents knew that of which they spoke. The .41 Magnum, loaded to it's potential, will produce nearly double the FPE of the 10mm. The .41Mag would be in a much larger handgun than the 1911 format 10mm though. We're talking a 200gr at 1200fps in a 5" 1911 versus a 300gr at 1300fps in a 7.5" Ruger. Big difference in what you've got hanging off your hip.

Bluedog · « **Reply #19 on:** January 29, 2004, 11:38:32 AM »

Savage,

that EAA can be a diamond in the rough, or a dirt clod. If you dislike the feel of a Glock, you will probably enjoy the feel of the witness, and vice versa. The 10mm is a pussycat in the heavy full size witness. They now offer a polymer, we'll se where that takes us. The chamber isn't as thick as the Delta I compared it to, but that doesn't mean anything. They generally need a better recoil spring out of the box, and the mags require some cleanup and lube before they function well, but 15+1 (if you find them) rivals most 9s and 40s in the same size platform.

I can tell you that with a short barrel of the compact, the 10mm is not really much better than a good 40 in velocity. You tend to lose 150-200fps with most powders. However, you can safely load the bigger 10mm bullets from 200gr on up, which you can't really do safely in a 40. I assume that Glock 29 loaders have found similar results compared to the model 20.

It is a labor of love more or less; there are some great wheelguns out there in traditional calibers like 41 magnum which perform better, although the moon clip option is an advantage to some. Jeff Cooper insists that its purpose is simply to stretch out the effective range of the old 45, and the Rowland or 45 Win Mag does that even better. It would probably make a great caliber for the military, having a capacity in between 45 and 9, and probably would make a fantastic subgun caliber, although again, a 45 Rowland or 45 win mag would meet or exceed it except in capacity. Nothing wrong with it, it isn't obsolete, but it isn't a wonder caliber IMO.

Savage · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2004, 12:21:50 PM »

Bluedog,
Actually I don't have a problem with the Glock grip size/angle, but like the 1911 as well. I have wheel guns in 44mag and 45LC that are significantly more powerful than the 10mm. I just want something different, thus the wittness platform. I have too many guns in too many calibers----I just need ONE more!
Savage

JOE MACK · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2004, 10:43:00 PM »

I like the caliber 'cause it's as close to a .41Magnum as you can get in a decent sized autoloader. Desert Eagle is way too large and I have yet to find a Coonan in .41Magnum. The Witness carry does look interesting as it can be carried cocked and locked I believe. This makes it fit in with my other 1911 pattern 10mms. For me, the Glock 20 is just too uncomfortable just like the 21. Like shotguns, I like my handguns to fit me. RKBA!

tenzilla · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2004, 01:00:30 PM »

Hmmm...thoughts on the 10mm. I love it! I have a Glock 20 and an original run S & W Model 610. I bought both of these guns close to ten years ago, and wouldn`t part with either for less than a king`s ransom. Stoke the Glock with sizziling CorBon or Triton 135 gr. JHP`s, and in my opinion, it`s as good a manstopper as can be had in a handgun carry package. Load heavier bullets like the 175 gr. Winchester Silvertip, or Hornady`s 200 gr. XTP(my two hunting faves) and it`s a plenty potent whitetail dropper out to 75 yards. Two out of the last three years the 610 has put venison in my freezer. (The year it didn`t was last year...cause I bonked one with my smokepole instead!) Long story short, the 10mm will never be dead in my book. :grin: tenzilla

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2004, 01:51:23 AM »

All this talk about the 10mm perked an interest.
It seems to me, from what I have read, that the 10mm needs a longer barrel 1) to effect the full power offered 2) help with muzzel flip/recoil.
Now the 1911 frame is a good choice for the weapon, according to sum folks. I been reading however that a long slide in the 1911 is a piece of work. Trouble is, that takes ya to a custom job.
Been seeing more long slides offered in a .45 and they, to me, look good. Now if someone would offer a true long slide, not a 5" gun upped to 6" that might be a goodun.
Peters Stahl is suspose to have a frame in this lenght but again were are back to custom.
Blessings

unspellable · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2004, 11:45:47 AM »

The 10 mm in its original full house load was just a bit too much for social purposes. When reduced loads came along S&W got the idea of putting them in a shorter case, hence the 40 S&W.

The full house 10 mm is also a bit much for the 1911 platform. I have talked to an engineer at Ruger as to the chances of a 10 mm or 357 SIG from them and he said they would have to come up with a new design, the Ruger 45 just wouldn't handle it. This is not a matter of pressure but of impulse. It just sends the slide back too hard. Not that it can't be done but it's abusive to the pistol.

I am inclined to say the 10 mm full house load's real home is as a field round. Just enough steam for deer. Does well in a long slide Glock. An oversized 1911 style pistol might handle it OK.

Savage · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2004, 02:46:29 PM »

The 10mm too much for the 1911 platform! Nay, nay, I say!! With the proper recoil spring the 10mm should be no more abusive than the 38 Super or the 9x23. The Colt Deltas have held up well for years. The Kimber would be my first choice, but from what I've heard the Dan Wesson isn't bad either.
Savage

unspellable · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2004, 01:46:53 AM »

A stiffer recoil spring does not reduce the slide velocity by any appreciable amount. What it does do is get the slide slowed down before it reaches the rear limit. The problem is that you now have all that energy stored in the spring and it sends the slide back to battery with too much velocity. The 10 mm and 357 SIG produce substantially more impulse than the 45 ACP. For all its reputation as a big cartridge the old 45 ACP is actually fairly gentle to the pistol. You just need a heavier slide for the 10 mm. I have heard of Colt Delta problems due to the excessive impulse with the 10 mm.

There are a number of misconceptions a around about recoil springs. If you open up a half dozen shooter Lugers you will find six different recoil springs, non stock. This is part of the Luger's undeserved repuation for poor reliability. Over the years people have been modifying the recoil spring in an attempt to to get them to work with out of spec ammo.

MCNETT · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2004, 08:36:16 AM »

My Delta Elite that I purchased in 1988 has more than 15,000rds through it. It looks like new! It came with a 23lb recoil spring and I use a 24lb spring, it works great with either, it was DESIGNED to work with the 10mm!
-Mike

Savage · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2004, 11:27:01 AM »

Even though the 45ACP operates at less than half the pressures of the 9mm/10mm/38super/9/23 class of cartridges, slide velocity can be regulated with the variable rate springs. At least to within acceptable limits. The recoil spring unloads at the same rate regardless of how fast it loads, fixed or variable. The slide on the 1911 has adequate mass to handle the 10mm with the proper springs. There are also recoil reduction systems available if desired, but they are not needed. I have first hand knowledge of two Deltas that were shot extensively with full power ammo with no damage and little wear. One of these is still floating around our department, having been owned at one time or another by 4 different officers.
Savage

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** March 19, 2004, 02:46:40 PM »

I have to agree with savage, not from experience, but from what I have read over at pistolsmith. That was from tha boys that build em.
They do not even advocate as heavy a spring as 23#. It seems the problem with the delta was in an area that did not need restructuring just manipulating the area common to cracking by grinding the angle.
Some use shock buffers and some do not.
blessings