Author Topic: Loose scope rail (Read 1410 times)

gregkdc · « **on:** January 14, 2012, 02:38:08 PM »

Hello everybody I am new to the forum but a long time handi owner. I have a standard .30-06 handi rifle with a wood stock. I have hunted with this rifle for several years and have never really had any problems with it until this year. Actually it wasn't the rifle that was the problem but my scope. I had a cheap Simmons scope that broke and it took quite some time to figure out what was going on. I eventually bought a Redfield scope and got my gun working again, it had shot well in the past so I knew it couldn't be the rifle. With the new scope I started spending more time at the range trying to acurize my gun when I discovered that I had a large POA shift of 3-4" as the barrel got hot. It was on this site that I learned you can float the barrel with a grommet. So I went out to the range today with the newly floated barrel and still no success. I was hitting the target at 100 yards but was having a hell of a time getting the group smaller than 4-5". After about 10 rounds I just so happened to place my hand on the side of the scope and noticed that the rail was a little loose and had about half a millimeter of play. I was surprised I was even hitting the target with that much slop. I tried all of the allen wrenches I had in my ammo bag but none of them fit. I have high scope rings so it isn't a problem getting to the little allen screws that hold the rail down. I don't remember if I putt the rail on or if I bought it this way, the gun did come with the scope rail and no sites. It looks like I am going to have to buy a new allen wrench and was wondering if anybody knows what size I need for the scope rail. I really don't want to take it all apart if I could just tighten them up, but I also don't want to walk into the local hardware store with a rifle to see what wrench will fit. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Greg

JB White · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:59:13 PM »

Are you in need of a key or a bit? Sets of keys are inexpensive and you can probably find a combo SAE and metric set for less than a cup of Starbucks coffee.

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:09:13 PM »

It will depend on what screws were used. I am guessing you need a right angle wrench to get under the scope. You will be better off if you just remove the scope base and then bed it with some blue locktight under it and in the screw holes. All the scope base screws I have are slotted, so can't help on the likely size. Larry

Dinny · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:09:50 PM »

I would recommend you disassemble it. If nothing else to clean the screws off, clean the holes out and add some loctite. You will notice a world of difference when the screws are actually grabbing onto clean metal. Then you can take one of the screws in to be matched to a bit.

Larry- you beat me by mere seconds. Great minds think alike.

Thanks, Dinny

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:22:47 PM »

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:25:51 PM »

I would take the barrel off and bring it to the tool store (leaving the receiver at home) to find an allen wrench to fit. I have several scope mounts and rings with allen screws, and some have metric heads while others have SAE. Good luck, and let us know how you make out!

-WH-

TNBilly · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:42:10 PM »

As has been mentioned by several before me, don't even consider NOT removing the scope and reinstalling the base with Loctite. Amongst the reasons...... you need to inspect the threads in the barrel to make sure they're not damaged from being shot loose. As Dinny said for cleaning.... If you don't remember locking the threads then it wasn't done considering they came loose and it's not a matter of if it'll shoot loose just when. Little embarrassing I guess but I installed a scope back on a new 445 barrel this summer "temporarily" and forgot the temp part

It made it less than 100 rounds before shooting loose enough I noticed it and remembered!

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:48:44 PM »

Found 5 that seem to fit mine pretty good. Only one seems to be marked and with my stronger bench glasses and a large magnifying glass under a magnifying lamp I "THINK" it says 3/32. It's probably in the FAQS, it should be. Think I saw it in there $:-\$ If you can get the screws out you may want to take them into a store and be sure the one you get fits good. I have five and I would like a couple NEW ones. You don't want to round the corners or you have a bigger problem. Good Luck!

Also Welcome. Check out the FAQS at the top of the page. About everything is in there.

Changed, Thanks to the Swifter Thinkers

JB White · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2012, 05:50:52 PM »

That would be 3/32.
8/32 is usually marked 1/4

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:09:41 PM »

Thanks, 4 8s are 32

Didn't think about it, had a hard enough time seeing it

Been sick all week and just finding them all and trying to find numbers on them wore me out

JB White · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:20:47 PM »

I know the problem well. Rocking my head up and down trying to see with and without the bifocals all the while finding just the right angle with the light and a magnifying glass. Only to discover a weak illegible stamp.
It's no wonder we sometimes suffer from short bouts of cranial flatulence......once in a while.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

I've been suffering from it more often lately

Guess it's time. My new glasses have been done for two days but just haven't felt up to going out. And I really want them. They wouldn't have helped with the stamp on the wrench. My bench glasses are stronger. Sounds like you was watchin me

JB White · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:48:27 PM »

I wasn't watching but I had a pretty good mental image. Perhaps it was telepathy?

gregkdc · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2012, 04:25:55 AM »

Thanks for the info guys, I will definitely take the scope off and get some lock tight if the treads are ok? Anyway the screw heads are hexagon allen type heads and are quite small, less than 1/8". I like the idea of taking the barrel off and that will probably be what I do. I will also double check all of my allen wrenches throughout the house to make sure I didn't miss one. Greg

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:20:32 AM »

Welcome Greg! You might want to replace those screws, I use Brownell's T10 torx head screws, part number in the scope rail section of the FAQs, also see Bedding the Scope Rail in the FAQs.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,88476.msg534522.html#msg534522

gregkdc · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:53:00 AM »

I searched the house for allen wrenches and found a 3/32" in the junk drawer that fits perfectly so you guys were right about that. The screws came out with no problem, it was almost alarming at how loose they really were. The threads look like they are in almost new condition so I don't think that I am going to replace them. The threads in the barrel look good as well but are loaded up with copious amounts of oil so I am going to clean them out with some solvent before applying the LOC tight, I just got back for the auto parts to buy LOC-tight ouch $7.00 for that little tube. Anyway I will reinstall my scope in just a minute and hopefully get back out to the range tomorrow.

gregkdc · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2012, 07:26:22 AM »

Ok all putt back together now it just needs time to dry. I don't ever remember doing this to my gun and I am pretty sure the gun cam this way from the factory. While cleaning out the screw holes what I originally thought was gunked up oil turned out to be old broken LOC-tight. The LOC-tight I just bought is the blue kind and that is what was previously in the screw holes. I am now wondering if I should re-do everything with the red LOC-tight or just leave it alone unless it gets loose again? Last I have been shooting 180 grain bullets, is the 180 grain .30-06 considered a heavy kicker?

Dinny · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2012, 07:32:36 AM »

Recoil from a 180gr 30-06 is generally the tolerable limit for most shooters. I think if the screw holes and threads on the screws were all cleaned you will have better results. Any oil in/on them will eliminate any chance the loctite has of doing it's job. I like to clean everything with either rubbing alcohol or acetone.

Thanks, Dinny

cwlongshot · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2012, 07:35:17 AM »

Good call and better advice to remove clean degrease and re install with lock rite!!!

I used to use blue. 100% of the time. Then I realized I almost never removed a base on installed. So I switched to red. I have never had a problem. I am only taking base screws here.

With the Blue you should be fine. Just give it a full 24 hours and 48 is better. If it makes you feel better do it over with the red. Just be sure you use a good de greaser for the holes and the screws.

CW

Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2012, 09:31:05 AM »

Recoil and weight of scope will make a difference. I'll bet the Redfield is a bit heavier than the Simmons, which was just enough to bring out an already existing problem.

On my Weatherby rifle, with a heavy Night Force scope. I had all kinds of problems getting it to stay in one place. Sheared the screws off once. Broke a Lupold base plate another time.

demented · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2012, 10:56:14 AM »

Be sure you buy BLUE removable Loc-tite! With some of that green or red stuff, your base will become a permanent part of your rifle.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2012, 11:34:23 AM »

Purple loctite 222 is the correct strength thread locker to use on small scews up to ¼", it works well, blue may require heat to avoid stripping the head out of the factory scews should they ever need to be removed for an upgrade, there's a thread in the FAQs specifically about the problem and it's solutions.

Tim

http://www.all-spec.com/products/Loctite/Tapes_and_Adhesives%7CAdhesives%7CADH-03/21463.html

sphingta · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2012, 11:47:48 AM »

do not use red unless you never plan on taking off the rail. you'll have to heat to remove.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »

Quote from: demented on January 15, 2012, 10:56:14 AM

Be sure you buy BLUE removable Loc-tite! With some of that green or red stuff, your base will become a permanent part of your rifle.

Quote from: sphingta on January 15, 2012, 11:47:48 AM

You'll have to heat to remove.

Not so Demented!!
SPOT on Sphingta!!

Ooh but red loc-tite IS removable, you just need a little heat!

It is not difficult. Simply insert the removal tool and heat that. The heat transfers into the screw thru the tool and loosens the loc-tite. Tim has some posts on the subject in the FAQ's!

CW

ceadersavage2 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:33:25 PM »

Had one just like yours file the screw a one or two threads off should work try it if works them put lock tite on them when locking them down give them a day put scope on have fun

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2012, 01:18:23 PM »

Quote from: ceadersavage2 on January 15, 2012, 12:33:25 PM

Had one just like yours file the screw a one or two threads off should work...

Not likely, more than likely the factory thread locker wasn't removed from the holes to begin with making the screws appear to be too long which is pretty much a perpetuated myth brought up a lot, see the FAQs, I've personally dealt with over 50 H&R rifle barrels, I've never found the mounting holes to shallow, almost all of them have had cured thread locker in the bottom of the holes that needed to be cleaned out before reinstalling the base.

Tim

daniel8370 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2012, 01:05:26 AM »

I had a problem on my 500 s&w with loose scope mount. I used red high strength loc-tite and it still would come loose. I later discovered that my screws were bottomed out but not tight against the barrel giving me the extra play in my scope and scope mount. The screw closest to the breech would torque down properly into the hole but it was the only screw tight against the barrel. 20 shots later and I couldnt keep it on paper at 50 yards do I sent it in to h&r because I did not believe the holes were deep enough. I got it back and they said it was fine. More looking and I found the holes that are drilled into my factory h&r scope mount are all at 3 different depths. I could see a visible difference in all 3 screws. I dont know if that could be the problem or not but its worth a shot. I had to turn down my screws a couple of threads to fix it. Dan

daniel8370 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 17, 2012, 01:14:23 AM »

This isnt the greatest picture but you can see the screws on the left are drilled deeper than the one on the right. Dan

cwlongshot · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2012, 02:24:39 AM »

Welcome Dan!!

I have seen the need to shorten screws a number of times myself on different firearms. As long as you have more depth than screw diameter and they threads are properly cut and in good shape, your screws will hold adaquitely.

If your screws are coming loose you have something you have missed.

1) Not adaquitely cleaned the threads of the screw and hole

2) Not allowed enough time allowed for the loc-tite to cure

3) It's bad/ expired thread locker.

Even bad threads with properly applied loc-tite would likely hold fin if extra time was given to assure complete cure of thread locker.

Most people fall into the first pitfal i mentioned. Not properly cleaned hole and decreased hole AND screw. Oil residue on/in either will defeat most all thread locking compounds.

CW

hoytcanon · « **Reply #29 on:** January 17, 2012, 11:11:27 AM »

So your holes are clean, and the screws are tight? Now take them out again... throw the factory rail in the garbage and buy yourself a DNZ GameReaper one-piece mount... reinstall new screws with blue or red Loc-Tite... bueno!