Author Topic: What happened to the idea of chivalry?  (Read 959 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

  • Trade Count: (60)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« on: January 18, 2012, 04:54:11 PM »
Just finish reading an interesting article on the Costa Concordia accident (article below).  It got me thinking about the behavior of people now, compared to when I was growing up.  I was taught to open and hold doors, and give up a seat on public transportation for older folks, and women.  Older men were addressed as sir, and women as ma'am.  Now it seems as if most young folks have no idea how to behave.  Is chivalry dead, or is it just some young folks have no idea.  Comments.

Women & children last? No chivalry on Costa Concordia  Last Updated: 10:17 PM, January 16, 2012
 Posted: 10:15 PM, January 16, 2012
             More Print     headshotRich Lowry
  When they make the movie about the Costa Concordia, the cruise ship that grounded off the coast of Tuscany, there won’t be romantic tales about its captain.
Italian authorities immediately arrested him on suspicions of manslaughter and abandoning ship prematurely. He might have been the skipper of the ill-fated vessel in all senses of the word.
A century ago this spring, as the Titanic entered its death throes and all its lifeboats had been launched, Capt. Edward Smith told his crew: “Men, you have done your full duty. You can do no more. Now it’s every man for himself.”
   When men were still men: On the Titanic (here depicted in the 1997 film) men stayed behind so that the women and children might survive. 20th Century Fox  When men were still men: On the Titanic (here depicted in the 1997 film) men stayed behind so that the women and children might survive.       One witness recalled seeing him, probably washed overboard, clutching a child in the water as the Titanic disappeared.
A member of the crew always believed it was Capt. Smith’s voice he heard from the water after the Titanic was gone, urging him and others on: “Good boys! Good lads!”
“Every man for himself” is a phrase associated with the deadly Costa Concordia disaster, but not as a last-minute expedient. It appears to have been the natural order of things.
In the words of one newspaper account, “An Australian mother and her young daughter have described being pushed aside by hysterical men as they tried to board lifeboats.”
If the men of the Titanic had lived to read such a thing, they would have recoiled in shame. The Titanic’s crew surely would have thought the hysterics deserved to be shot on sight — and would have volunteered to perform the service.
Women and children were given priority in theory, but not necessarily in practice.
The Australian mother said of the scene, “We just couldn’t believe it — especially the men, they were worse than the women.”
Another woman passenger agreed, “There were big men, crew members, pushing their way past us to get into the lifeboats.”
Yet another, a grandmother, complained, “I was standing by the lifeboats and men, big men, were banging into me and knocking the girls.”
Guys aboard the Costa Concordia apparently made sure the age of chivalry was good and dead by pushing it over and trampling on it in their heedless rush for the exits.
The grounded cruise ship has its heroes, of course, just as the Titanic had its cowards. But the discipline of the Titanic’s crew and the self-enforced chivalric ethic that prevailed among its men largely trumped the natural urge toward panicked self-preservation.
Women and children went first, and once the urgency of the situation became clear, breaches weren’t tolerated. The crew fired warning shots to keep men from rushing the lifeboats.
In an instance Daniel Allen Butler recounts in his book, “Unsinkable,” a male passenger trying to make it on one lifeboat was rebuffed and then beaten for his offense.
The survivor statistics tell the tale. More women from third class — deep in the bowels of the ship, where it was hard to escape and instructions were vague or nonexistent — survived than men from first class.
Almost all of the women from first class (97 percent) and second class (84 percent) made it.
As Butler notes, the men from first class who were lost stayed behind voluntarily, true to their Edwardian ideals.
They can look faintly ridiculous from our vantage point. Benjamin Guggenheim changed into his evening clothes that night: “We’ve dressed in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen.”
Who would you rather have around your wife or daughter, though, when there is only one slot left on the lifeboat?
Old Guggenheim in his white tie and tails, or the contemporary slob in his Bermuda shorts and flip-flops?
The Titanic went down, they say, to the strains of the hymn “Nearer, My God, to Thee” as the band courageously played on. It lent a final grace note to the tragedy.
Today, we don’t do grace notes. We’ve gone from “Women and children, first,” to “Dude, where’s my lifeboat?”
As the women of the Costa Concordia can testify, that’s a long way down.
comments.lowry@nationalreview.com
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/women_children_last_9mdEh6P9nXC6E5DQw7w8HK#ixzz1jsAaqMfv

"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline BUGEYE

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10268
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 01:22:24 AM »
I'm ashamed of men from this new generation.  they are cowards.
I still treat my wife as a lady after 36 years of marraige.  careful study of the Bible will show that you must be willing to sacrifice yourself for your family.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Old Syko

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 02:04:38 AM »
How much of this lack of chivalry has been self inflicted?  Women nowadays strive for equality.  Well you can't just be equal when it's convenient.  I've had women actually get huffy because I opened a door or just allowed them to go first.  I'm willing to bet their attitude would be different in a life or death situation such as getting in the last lifeboat.   

Offline gypsyman

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4851
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 02:21:15 AM »
Women have brought on some of that themselves. Womens lib in the '60's. I wanna be a cop,construction worker,soldier,football player,etc. Act like a man, be treated as such. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline OldSchoolRanger

  • Trade Count: (60)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 04:48:38 AM »
I'm ashamed of men from this new generation.  they are cowards.
I still treat my wife as a lady after 36 years of marraige.  careful study of the Bible will show that you must be willing to sacrifice yourself for your family.

BUGEYE - Thank God, there are still some gentlemen out there.  I raised my sons to treat women with the respect and courtesy they deserve.

How much of this lack of chivalry has been self inflicted?  Women nowadays strive for equality. Well you can't just be equal when it's convenient.  I've had women actually get huffy because I opened a door or just allowed them to go first.  I'm willing to bet their attitude would be different in a life or death situation such as getting in the last lifeboat.   

Old Syko - That's true, but it doesn't prevent me from being courteous.  When women get huffy when I've held a door open for them.  I just say "your welcome", and smile.  They usually get flustered.  I've actually had a lady tell me she, wasn't use to being treated that way, then apologized for being "huffy".  I just tell her that it's (her behavior) okay, and that it just was the way I was raised.  Don't know about the last statement, there are a lot of wo-men, out there. ;)


Women have brought on some of that themselves. Womens lib in the '60's. I wanna be a cop,construction worker,soldier,football player,etc. Act like a man, be treated as such. gypsyman

gypsyman - When they're working as such (cop, construction, etc...), I expect them to pull their weight, and treat them that way.  But a lady is still a lady at the end of the day, know what I mean?  And, I know they appreciate being treated as one. 8)
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline powderman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32823
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 05:18:44 AM »
Some really god posts guys and you are right, womens libbers did a lot of damage that is still going on today and have brought in on themselves.  Standard for police and firemen had to be lowered because of womens lib. Then they act real surprised when a female cop gets the crap beat out of her. The solution some say is to send a man with her, doubling the cost of a run.  Why not just send a man anyway and leave the woman behind a desk?? WE've been married almost 32 years and we still go on dates, I always open the door and try to act like a gentleman. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Old Syko

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 07:29:28 AM »
There are a lot of things a MAN does that go unnoticed by most.  Walking down a sidewalk where traffic is present I always put myself between her and the traffic.  If eating out, I always make sure she orders first and stand if she must leave the table.  If staying in a hotel I always sleep between her and the door.  Besides. if need be I want to have the first shot.   ;)   The thing is I do it because I care and was raised to understand what that entails. Slobbish behavior is one of those issues that can't be blamed on age like so many try to blame the "younger generation" for things.  This has become a rather universally accepted thing.  The only time we hear of such poor behavior is in times like this shipwreck when in truth it is everyday actions that are the real issue.

Offline BUGEYE

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10268
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 07:47:10 AM »
There are a lot of things a MAN does that go unnoticed by most.  Walking down a sidewalk where traffic is present I always put myself between her and the traffic.  If eating out, I always make sure she orders first and stand if she must leave the table.  If staying in a hotel I always sleep between her and the door.  Besides. if need be I want to have the first shot.   ;)   The thing is I do it because I care and was raised to understand what that entails. Slobbish behavior is one of those issues that can't be blamed on age like so many try to blame the "younger generation" for things.  This has become a rather universally accepted thing.  The only time we hear of such poor behavior is in times like this shipwreck when in truth it is everyday actions that are the real issue.
I do those exact same things.  the only time I don't open her car door is when it's pouring rain and she'll tell me to let myself in..
God bless the remaining ladies.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 07:59:36 AM »
There are a lot of things a MAN does that go unnoticed by most.  Walking down a sidewalk where traffic is present I always put myself between her and the traffic.  If eating out, I always make sure she orders first and stand if she must leave the table.

Doesn't everybody do this ?   ???
 
Don't we wish everybody DID!?   :-\
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline Old Fart

  • Intergalactic Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (77)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 08:05:00 AM »
I saw something on yahoo earlier today where this so called captain said he slipped and fell into that life boat.  :(
 
I found it, here it is:
http://news.yahoo.com/cruise-captain-says-tripped-lifeboat-couldnt-153914621--abc-news.html
"All my life I've had a bad case of the Fred's. Fredrick Vanderbilt taste on a Fred Sanford budget." CR
Lifetime/Endowment/Patron NRA Member.
Second Amendment Foundation, www.saf.org - Life Member

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 08:43:01 AM »
Women have brought on some of that themselves. Womens lib in the '60's. I wanna be a cop,construction worker,soldier,football player,etc. Act like a man, be treated as such. gypsyman

You are correct ! I have opened doors for more than a few women who chewed me out or refused to enter until let it close. Why waste a seat on a life boat for trash like that ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline powderman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32823
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 03:40:18 PM »
Many years ago I worked in a factory in ILL where several women were fighting for certain jobs but didn't want to do the same work. An older fellow said, If God intended for men and women to be equal, he wouldn't have made men with big muscles and women with big boobs. Hmmmmm. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline blind ear

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4156
  • Gender: Male
    • eddiegjr
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 04:58:25 PM »
Chivalry got trampled to death at the Thanksgiving WalMart sale. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
-
“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
-
An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital

Offline Old Fart

  • Intergalactic Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (77)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 02:58:20 AM »
Chivalry got trampled to death at the Thanksgiving WalMart sale. ear

 ;D ;D ;D
"All my life I've had a bad case of the Fred's. Fredrick Vanderbilt taste on a Fred Sanford budget." CR
Lifetime/Endowment/Patron NRA Member.
Second Amendment Foundation, www.saf.org - Life Member

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 05:07:48 AM »
My reading of the incident indicates that some very good decisions were made. For example, the captain did decide conciously to take the ship into shallow water with land within swimming distance, where it listed. That decision alone probably saved hundreds of lives. Granted it remains to be seen how the collision occurred in the first place, but this is an important consideration. Considering that there were about 4000 people aboard, the low number of casualties is pretty remarkable. Take just about any given Asian ferry accident, and it's not unusual for several hundred people to perish, and that in warmer water.  Also, the notion that a captain must remain aboard is nonsense. There is no such requirement, and operations can often best be directed from elsewhere.
 
Let the facts play out.

Offline Old Fart

  • Intergalactic Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (77)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 05:18:48 AM »
Let the facts play out.

I agree, but it seems like I read where the whole reason he ended up near the beach was because he was showboating.  ???
"All my life I've had a bad case of the Fred's. Fredrick Vanderbilt taste on a Fred Sanford budget." CR
Lifetime/Endowment/Patron NRA Member.
Second Amendment Foundation, www.saf.org - Life Member

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2012, 05:42:45 AM »
  Also, the notion that a captain must remain aboard is nonsense. There is no such requirement, and operations can often best be directed from elsewhere.
 
Let the facts play out.

Nonsense ? maybe not . SOLAS treaty which Italy is a part of states the captin is to command all safety mesures and on board is the best place to do so. Each ship has to have a writter plan and many/most require the captian to remain onboard and in control of operations. When the ships written instruction becomes aval. it might not be nonsense . also he was commanded by the coast guard to remain and failed to do so. The facts will surely play out in this case.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Old Syko

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 05:47:48 AM »
Also, the notion that a captain must remain aboard is nonsense. There is no such requirement, and operations can often best be directed from elsewhere.
 
Let the facts play out.


I disagree!  When you sign on to such a position you automatically assume responsibility for the lives and welfare of all aboard.  You can't phone in directions and expect a job to be done by others while you are elsewhere.  You have to be hands on to be worth your salt.  If it weren't a requirement we would have airplane captains bailing out to save themselves leaving their charges to fend for themselves.  The captain should be the absolute last living being to leave the vessel.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

  • Trade Count: (60)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 05:50:43 AM »
My reading of the incident indicates that some very good decisions were made. For example, the captain did decide conciously to take the ship into shallow water with land within swimming distance, where it listed. That decision alone probably saved hundreds of lives. Granted it remains to be seen how the collision occurred in the first place, but this is an important consideration. Considering that there were about 4000 people aboard, the low number of casualties is pretty remarkable. Take just about any given Asian ferry accident, and it's not unusual for several hundred people to perish, and that in warmer water.  Also, the notion that a captain must remain aboard is nonsense. There is no such requirement, and operations can often best be directed from elsewhere.
 
Let the facts play out.
Conan - Sorry, most seafarers disagree with you.

Seafarers outraged that captain could jump ship
Print      
E-mail      
  Written by KARL RITTER,Associated Press         
Thursday, 19 January 2012   
  STOCKHOLM (AP) — Seafaring tradition holds that the  captain should be last to leave a sinking ship. But is it realistic to  expect skippers — only human after all — to suppress their survival  instinct amid the horror of a maritime disaster? To ask them to stare  down death from the bridge, as the lights go out and the water rises,  until everyone else has made it to safety?
 
 
 
FILE In this In this  Saturday, Jan. 14, 2012 file photo  Francesco Schettino, right, the  captain of the luxury cruiser Costa Concordia, which ran aground off  Italy's tiny Tuscan island of Isola del Giglio, is taken into custody by  Carabinieri in Porto Santo Stefano, Italy. Seamen have expressed almost  universal outrage at Capt. Francesco Schettino, accused of  manslaughter, causing a shipwreck and of abandoning his crippled cruise  ship off Tuscany while passengers were still on board. The charge of  abandoning his ship carries a potential sentence of 12 years in prison.  Seafaring tradition holds that the captain should be last to leave a  sinking ship. But is it realistic to expect skippers _ only human after  all _ to suppress their survival instinct amid the horror of a maritime  disaster? To ask them to stare down death from the bridge, as the lights  go out and the water rises, until everyone else has made it to safety?  From mariners on ships plying the world's oceans, the answer is loud and  clear: Aye. (AP Photo/Giacomo Aprili, File)
 
 
From mariners on ships plying the world's oceans, the answer is loud and clear: Aye.
"It's a matter of honor that the master is the last to leave. Nothing less will do in this profession," said Jorgen Loren, captain of a passenger ferry operating between Sweden and Denmark and chairman of the Swedish Maritime Officer's Association.
Seamen have expressed almost  universal outrage at Capt. Francesco Schettino, accused of manslaughter,  causing a shipwreck and of abandoning his crippled cruise ship off  Tuscany while passengers were still on board. The last charge carries a  potential sentence of 12 years in prison.
Jim Staples, a captain  for 20 years, who spoke Wednesday from a 1,000-foot (300-meter) cargo  vessel he was captaining near New Orleans, said captains are duty-bound  to stay with the ship until the situation is hopeless. When they bail  early, everything falls apart.
"I'm totally embarrassed by what he  did," he said of Schettino. "He's given the industry a bad name, he's  made us all look bad. It's shameful."
Schettino should have  remained on board "until the last passenger is accounted for," said  Abelardo Pacheco, a Filipino captain who was held hostage for five  months in Somalia and now heads a seafarers' training center in Manila.
"That is the responsibility of the captain, that's why all privileges are given to him but he has together with that an equal burden of responsibility," Pacheco said.
The Costa Concordia, carrying more  than 4,200 passengers and crew, slammed into a reef on Friday, after  Schettino made an unauthorized maneuver. A recording of his conversation  with the Italian Coast Guard suggests he fled before all passengers  were off, and resisted repeated orders to go back, saying the ship was  tipping and it was dark. Schettino reportedly said he ended up in a life  raft after he tripped and fell into the water.
He is being held in house arrest as prosecutors prepare criminal charges.
Even if he's not convicted, it is highly unlikely that he'll ever command a cruise or cargo ship again because of the damage to his reputation, said  Prof. Craig Allen of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy in New London, Connecticut.
"Some people panic, but a short time later they  collect their senses and do the right thing," Allen said. "In this case  there was more than enough time for the moment of panic to pass. It was  abject cowardice."
Both literature and real life offer plenty of  examples of shipmasters who paid the ultimate sacrifice to protect their  passengers and crew.
The most famous, perhaps, is the captain of  the Titanic, E.J. Smith, who evacuated the ship — women and children  first — until there were no lifeboats left, and then perished with it.
A more recent example is Robert Royer, the captain of a fishing vessel that sank off Alaska in 2010. As water gushed into the ship and the three other crew members jumped overboard, Royer stayed in the wheelhouse to make a frantic mayday call and give the ship's position to the Coast Guard. The crew said that likely saved their lives, because the ship's emergency beacon didn't work.
After more than three  hours in the water, they were rescued by a Coast Guard helicopter.  Royer, however, died after suffering a head injury when he finally left  the ship.
Maritime experts say such manifestations of courage at  sea far outnumber incidents in which captains saved themselves and left  their passengers behind.
Those who did earned instant infamy, like  the captain of the Greek luxury liner Oceanos, which sank in rough seas  off South Africa in 1991.
The 402 passengers and 179 crew members  all survived, but Captain Yiannis Avranas and other officers left the  ship while some passengers were still on board.
A magician who had  been performing on the ship took over the bridge, monitoring rescue  calls, as a fellow entertainer kept passengers calm by playing Beatles  songs on his guitar. Avranas defended his actions, saying he left the  ship to direct rescue operations.
"When I order abandon ship, it  doesn't matter what time I leave," Avranas said. "Abandon is for  everybody. If some people like to stay, they can stay."
A Greek board of inquiry found Avranas and four officers negligent in their handling of the disaster.
In 1965, the captain and several other crew members were among the first to abandon ship after the Yarmouth Castle caught fire and started sinking off the Bahamas, killing 90. Fleeing in a lifeboat, they were told by the captain of a rescue ship to go back and help their passengers.
Captains accused of leaving prematurely often claim  they can manage the situation better from the safety of a lifeboat,  rescue vessel or on shore.
Allen dismissed that idea, saying the captain's knowledge of his ship is crucial in an emergency.
"Shoreside rescue people can do all the shoreside coordination efforts needed," he  said. "You need someone on the ship to communicate with them, to command the people who are on the ship, to help get the passengers off and to guide the rescuers."
Rear Admiral Richard Gurnon, president  of the Massachusetts Maritime Academy called Schettino's actions  "abhorrent" and a violation of an unwritten code.
"It isn't just a  maritime code, it's a code of leadership," Gurnon said. "If you are  leader, you have responsibility for your people, they put their lives in  your hands."
Steen Brodersen, a retired Danish captain, said that  every single crew member, from the chief mate to the cooks, has a  designated role in an emergency on a cruise ship. Regular drills ensure  everyone knows what to do.
The captain must first ensure the  safety of his passengers, then of his crew and, finally, of the ship,  though the notion that he's supposed to go down with it is more legend  than fact.
Brodersen, 60, said he never had to deal with that kind  of situation, but he has sometimes thought about his own limit, when  his survival instinct would trump the hope of salvaging a doomed ship.
"There must be a point at which I would think that now it is time to jump into  the water so I don't die," he said. "But that would come after the ship  has been evacuated," he added. "It is my responsibility. I am the captain."
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 06:00:24 AM »
Good posts. My info is based on an interview I heard on public radio with a Coast Guard representative who explained how this stuff works, and what the captains actual responsibilities and duties are. This seemed to be very credibile information, and pertained internationally, not just for US waters. The captain on this particular ship had been a safety officer prior to his promotion to captain of this ship, so he certainly would know all that stuff. 
 
The interviewee cited examples of where the captain did indeed leave the ship, and why it made sense to do so in those cases.
 
I'm not defending the captain out of any personal axe to grind, but it there's so much rush to judgment based on relatively small pieces of the whole puzzle. That's what makes it interesting.
 
One glaring thing that stands out is the number of people who got off safely and the low number of casualties. If it were really as chaotic as some have reported, I think the body count would be much higher. We're talking thousands of people in a panic situation. Somebody must have been doing something right.

Offline Old Fart

  • Intergalactic Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (77)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 06:17:36 AM »
Not sure jumping ship is an issue here.
Remember the captain said he slipped and fell in a lifeboat.  ;D
 
 
 
 
 
J/K  ::)  ....don't bite my head off. ;)
"All my life I've had a bad case of the Fred's. Fredrick Vanderbilt taste on a Fred Sanford budget." CR
Lifetime/Endowment/Patron NRA Member.
Second Amendment Foundation, www.saf.org - Life Member

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 10:43:35 AM »
He must have been standing on the rail likew Erol Flynn in the movies  :o  when he fell up into the boat  ;) ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 08:08:00 PM »
Equal Rights, Cosmopolitan Magazine, Women's Suffrage, "The Pill" all have led down this path. Women have convinced us men that they no longer want nor desire special treatment.


They have now achieved equality.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline stubshaft

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 489
  • ROA's Rule
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 11:27:41 PM »
Womens Lib did put a real hurt on Chivalry but other traits like Honor, Respect and Integrity should still be maintained.  The current generation has no clue what these are since the closest they get to it in on their gameboys.

The Captains deplorable actions are like a pilot bailing out of an airliner because he knew it was going to crash.  I hope that they throw the b@stard in jail.
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 09:00:03 AM »
All Ladies are women, not all women are Ladies.......Don't expect to be treated like one if you aren't.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

  • Trade Count: (60)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 03:21:30 PM »
All Ladies are women, not all women are Ladies.......Don't expect to be treated like one if you aren't.
Nice quote, with a lot of truth to it!
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline Sourdough

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8150
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 04:49:00 AM »
Here in Fairbanks people say it's like the lower 48 during the 60s.  I open doors for ladies and they always say "Thank-you".  I've noticed young men open the door for me now all the time, especially young native men and women.  One young native man told me one day, "You may be white man, but you are still Elder".  That gave me a strange feeling, but made me feel proud to know those young people, who respect the wisdom of age amongst their elders.

When I am traveling I notice it's usually good looking women, around 45 to 55 that seem to be either insulted or huffy about me opening the door for them.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2012, 04:52:29 AM »

When I am traveling I notice it's usually good looking women, around 45 to 55 that seem to be either insulted or huffy about me opening the door for them.

Here its the ugly women that get upset . They also seem to be the ones who are feminist and also who receive little male attention.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline OldSchoolRanger

  • Trade Count: (60)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2012, 05:21:17 AM »

When I am traveling I notice it's usually good looking women, around 45 to 55 that seem to be either insulted or huffy about me opening the door for them.

Here its the ugly women that get upset . They also seem to be the ones who are feminist and also who receive little male attention.
Sourdough - I don't have that problem with the good looking ones that your talking about, I agree with SHOOTALL, it's usually the Rosie O'Donnell types.  Believe me, I don't mind them getting upset with me, as a matter of fact, I don't mind them ignoring me. 8)
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline BUGEYE

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10268
  • Gender: Male
Re: What happened to the idea of chivalry?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2012, 08:51:40 AM »
we can't pat the ship captain on the back for steering to shallow water.
all of my friends, most of whom have never been on a ship, say that would have been their first thought. get this baby on the beach.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye