Planning for the Defeat of Fort Pallet

[RocklockI]

DD ,this fort talk is all well and good ,but a fort is 'so last year' .
 
What we really need is a castle a great big one BIG one  .
 
There were alot of rocks on the range and those big telephone poles laying around wow I almost envy you. I can hardly wait to shatter a great big castle .
 
Chain shot and bar .... sweet .
 
Thanks for your hard work
Gary
 

[Zulu]

DD ,this fort talk is all well and good ,but a fort is 'so last year' .
 
What we really need is a castle a great big one BIG one  .
 
There were alot of rocks on the range and those big telephone poles laying around wow I almost envy you. I can hardly wait to shatter a great big castle .
 
Chain shot and bar .... sweet .
 
Thanks for your hard work
Gary

DD is a man of leisure now.  Maybe we should all make a list of things we want him to do.
You know, keep him from sitting around and getting fat.
Zulu

[Artilleryman]

Sounds like some of the folks here want to build a large 1/2 scale gun by picking a large siege or naval barrel design to start from.  So with so you could with some modifications and a naval carriage, use a 10 pdr Parrott as a 1/2 scale 100 pdr Naval Parrott.       

[Artilleryman]

24 pdr bar shot.  Demonstration for a History Channel program.  Bar shot was intended for sails and rigging.   Thought I would post this here as bar shot was mentioned earlier in this thread.

[jamesfrom180]

  Application, if those are the pallets I would hate to have seen what was shipped.  I think Fort Pallet is a little less sturdy. 

[Double D]

DD ,this fort talk is all well and good ,but a fort is 'so last year' .
 
What we really need is a castle a great big one BIG one  .
 
There were alot of rocks on the range and those big telephone poles laying around wow I almost envy you. I can hardly wait to shatter a great big castle .
 
Chain shot and bar .... sweet .
 
Thanks for your hard work
Gary

Not to worry Gary.  The purpose of the Cut Bank Cannon Shoot is to provide a venue for smaller guns, and provide we will.  I have been offered  the belly plate from an M-110 APC and a bunch of bricks.  We can simply build a fort on the 200 yard line for the larger guns.

We'll do three forts. One for the smaller guns at 50 yards, one for the medium guns at 100 yards and one for the big guns at 200.

I will have to draw the line at hot shot however. 

[jamesfrom180]

http://www.gabionbaskets.net/

This product or its cousin the roll of chicken wire, may make your fort building endeavors easier.  Make basket fill with rock or earth and shoot basket apart allowing rock or dirt to fall down.  Less chance of deflecting shots as it should absorb the energy.  One man, a bag of zip ties and a roll of wire is able to make quite a few big baskets in a day.  Takes a little bit more labor to fill but if gravel is plentiful and you have equipment its pretty easy.  Have not made targets out of this but will hold back a stream bank pretty well.   

[seacoastartillery]

    There's really no need to build a 200 yard fort, DD.  We are NOT building anything that big and we doubt that anyone will build what Artilleryman was writing about, that half-scale 100 Pdr. Parrott.  What we do need to know, however, is what bore size defines the "medium guns" which would fire at 100 yards that you mentioned in Reply #36.  I have a $20 bet with Gary that you won't be allowing anything over 1.75" diameter to fire at the 100 yard fort.  You are going to cost me serious money if you say 2.25" or "anything under 3.00 inches", so please be as steady and predictable as you normally are. Say 1.75".  Thank you. If someone really builds something BIG, Mike and I will show up a few days early and help you build and transport the 200 yard fort.
 
     Another reason we have re-thought the larger, solid-shot gun is Safety.  After the Myth Busters House piercing episode, we got to thinking about all that smooth, rounded river rock the range has and decided to err on the side of safety and go with a smaller, lighter, solid shot, so that if a ricochet does occur, the projectile will not carry nearly as far.  We don't give a hoot as to how much insurance the club carries, we simply will not take ANY chances with our cannon shooting.  In the Civil War there are plenty of instances of solid shot going off in unpredictable directions after hitting gun tubes, iron carriage parts or rocks.  Zinc is much softer than iron or steel and less likely to display this behavior and will be used by us when a bore size is decided on.
 
 Mike and Tracy
 

[Double D]

    There's really no need to build a 200 yard fort, DD.  We are NOT building anything that big and we doubt that anyone will build what Artilleryman was writing about, that half-scale 100 Pdr. Parrott.  What we do need to know, however, is what bore size defines the "medium guns" which would fire at 100 yards that you mentioned in Reply #36.  I have a $20 bet with Gary that you won't be allowing anything over 1.75" diameter to fire at the 100 yard fort.  You are going to cost me serious money if you say 2.25" or "anything under 3.00 inches", so please be as steady and predictable as you normally are. Say 1.75".  Thank you. If someone really builds something BIG, Mike and I will show up a few days early and help you build and transport the 200 yard fort.
 
     Another reason we have re-thought the larger, solid-shot gun is Safety.  After the Myth Busters House piercing episode, we got to thinking about all that smooth, rounded river rock the range has and decided to err on the side of safety and go with a smaller, lighter, solid shot, so that if a ricochet does occur, the projectile will not carry nearly as far.  We don't give a hoot as to how much insurance the club carries, we simply will not take ANY chances with our cannon shooting.  In the Civil War there are plenty of instances of solid shot going off in unpredictable directions after hitting gun tubes, iron carriage parts or rocks.  Zinc is much softer than iron or steel and less likely to display this behavior and will be used by us when a bore size is decided on.
 
 Mike and Tracy

I will build to accommodate any guns I know are coming.  It has long been rumored that there is bowling ball howitzer around and if showed I will not let it shot a for  Pallet.  I would be more inclined to fina car to shoot at for the larger guns

Since you  broached the subject on larger bore I have been thinking about the cut for medium.  I reached  in pith helmet and came up with no more than 2 inch for cannons.

The issue of ricochet has been discussed and I will be doing some test this summer.  The impact berm is no longer a 30 degree 25 foot slope.  It now 60 degree and closer 40 feet. I thought I had posted update photos in the Shoot thread.  I'll do that now.

Here is the new back stop berm.


That is not smooth round river worn rock on our range.  It is smooth glacier worn rock...none the less the ricochet isse will be addressed.

[KABAR2]

M&T you already have the perfect instrument of destruction .......
your monster mortar.........it fits the criteria it is a scale down version......
All you have to do is "improve" your projo's think rifled slug.........
I think one of those whould do a world of hurt to fort pallet.....
 
Allen <><

[seacoastartillery]

      KABAR2,   You might not have seen Dom's response which was something like, "I think a concrete filled water cooler jug fired from a already constructed Paixhans would obliterate Fort Pallet".
 
      You both have your thinking caps on and we appreciate you both for your confidence in the big French mortar.  However, after the drive last year, both Mike and I have vowed Never to haul a heavy trailer 1,700 miles ever again. 
 
      2" sounds good Double D.  Ricochet experiments sound good and the completed Back-Stop Berm is nothing short of spectacular.  A 40 foot high 60 degree slope is as good as it gets.  The range is looking real good.  Using George's round ball weight calculator, we come up with the following solid shot weights for a 2.00" dia. cannon bore:

     These weights come from shot where a tight target shooting windage of only .020" is calculated.  Regular windage of .050" for this 2.00" bore size is standard, being 1/40th of the bore size, resulting in a shot dia. of 1.95"
 
Weight of 1.980" Dia. Target Solid Shot in various metals.
 
 Zinc       .983 Lbs.
 
 Steel      1.028 Lbs.
 
 Lead       1. 67 Lbs.
 
    By golly, a cannon with a 2.00" dia. bore is a  1 Pdr.
 
 
Mike and Tracy

P.S.   I owe you $20, Gary.

[Double D]

 

P.S.   I owe you $20, Gary.

Semper fi Gary!!!!

Marines take care of their own!!

[seacoastartillery]

    Yes, yes, I know that the photo below suggests we will be building something outrageous like a big Carronade, but, what the hey, someone has to show up with something more fearsome than an Irish Wolfhound to knock DD's, 3 little pigs, brick, 200 yard fort, down.  Someone hauling one of these Scottish Smashers to Montana might possibly get it done.  Maybe.  We will have 15 months from this May when we deliver those Brookes, to get the smasher built.  Should be enough time.  I talked to Double D. yesterday and got his approval to help him build a 200 yard masonry and reinforced timber fort.  He is even sending me some Carronade drawings!  This proves he is a nice guy after all, even if he does continuously harass me about going back to school for computer drafting.

Tracy & Mike


That'l do pig, that'l do.

[Double D]

    Yes, yes, I know that the photo below suggests we will be building something outrageous like a big Carronade, but, what the hey, someone has to show up with something more fearsome than an Irish Wolfhound to knock DD's, 3 little pigs, brick, 200 yard fort, down.  Someone hauling one of these Scottish Smashers to Montana might possibly get it done.  Maybe.  We will have 15 months from this May when we deliver those Brookes, to get the smasher built.  Should be enough time.  I talked to Double D. yesterday and got his approval to help him build a 200 yard masonry and reinforced timber fort.  He is even sending me some Carronade drawings!  This proves he is a nice guy after all, even if he does continuously harass me about going back to school for computer drafting.

Tracy & Mike


That'l do pig, that'l do.

Better get a hearing aid before ytou go to CAD classes.

I remember the conversation differently.

I remember carronades.

I remember 200 yard targets for big guns.

I don't remember brick and mortar  discussion last night.

I do remember discussion about the Bucentaure. What a great idea that is. 

We can add the secret armor material used on Ft. Pallet to the Bucentaure target and it will be as indestructible as Fort Pallet,

Drawings in the mail...

[seacoastartillery]

 

     Yes, yes, I know that the photo below suggests we will be building something outrageous like a big Carronade, but, what the hey, someone has to show up with something more fearsome than an Irish Wolfhound to knock DD's, 3 little pigs, brick, 200 yard fort, down.  Someone hauling one of these Scottish Smashers to Montana might possibly get it done.  Maybe.  We will have 15 months from this May when we deliver those Brookes, to get the smasher built.  Should be enough time.  I talked to Double D. yesterday and got his approval to help him build a 200 yard masonry and reinforced timber fort.  He is even sending me some Carronade drawings!  This proves he is a nice guy after all, even if he does continuously harass me about going back to school for computer drafting.
 
 Tracy & Mike
 
 
 That'l do pig, that'l do.
 
 

 Better get a hearing aid before ytou go to CAD classes.
 
 I remember the conversation differently.
 
 I remember carronades.
 
 I remember 200 yard targets for big guns.
 
 I don't remember brick and mortar  discussion last night.
 
 I do remember discussion about the Bucentaure. What a great idea that is. 
 
 We can add the secret armor material used on Ft. Pallet to the Bucentaure target and it will be as indestructible as Fort Pallet,
 
 Drawings in the mail...   

 
 
 
      If you are talking about a target resembling the Stern of the French Ship of the Line, Bucentaure that Nelson's 68 Pdr. Carronades on HMS Victory blasted in 1805 at the Battle of Trafalgar, then I'm certainly on board for a re-creation of that event!  If, however, you imagine that I will be patiently carving all those ornate, wooden, mutton-window frames and other gingerbread work surrounding that mass of glass, think again.  We will most likely be hauling an artist, Mr. Bronze, with us and I bet Gary would really like all that artsy-craftsy stuff!  If he baulks, we can form a press gang and put him to work anyway, without any promise of lunch or dinner!
 
    Do you see how persuasive you are Double D.?  I have already forgotten about a second fort made of brick or sticks or straw.  The only problem is, a half-scale 68 Pdr. Carronade would be almost 14" diameter at the Base-Ring.  How the heck are we going to make that?
 Tracy

[GGaskill]

... 14" diameter at the Base-Ring.  How the heck are we going to make that?

On a really big lathe???  I don't think that would fit on my 17x54.

[Zulu]

Mike & Tracy,
This is full scale 12 pounder.  It is 10 1/2" at the base ring.  39" long.  Would yours have trunnions?
I really like this project of yours.
Zulu
 

[intoodeep]

  Would yours have trunnions?

 If it was to have trunnions then wouldn't it be called a Gunnade and not a Carronade? 

[Zulu]

  Would yours have trunnions?

 If it was to have trunnions then wouldn't it be called a Gunnade and not a Carronade? 

Yes,
A gunade is just a carronade with trunnions.
Zulu

[Artilleryman]

  Would yours have trunnions?

 If it was to have trunnions then wouldn't it be called a Gunnade and not a Carronade? 

Yes,
A gunade is just a carronade with trunnions.
Zulu

Sounds like two more words for the cannon terminology list.

[Double D]

Any one have anyidea the range from Victory to Bucentaure when the braodside was fired?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/interactive/animations/trafalgar/index_embed.shtml

[GGaskill]

No, but ship to ship combat in the days of fighting sail was not at long range.

[Double D]

Yes true enough but what was long range range for a long 32 and what is long range for 64 PDR carronade.

[GGaskill]

I know there was enough difference in range that a ship armed mostly with carronades was at a great disadvantage when matched against a ship with long guns.  See the Battle of Valparaiso which included a very young David Farragut on the ship with the carronades.

[seacoastartillery]

 Any one have any idea the range from Victory to Bucentaure when the braodside was fired?
 
 http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/interactive/animations/trafalgar/index_embed.shtml

 
 
      The best rendition of the battle and it's details that I have read so far is the one contained on the site with the following link:    http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/battle-of-trafalgar.html 

"Close Action"

      "As the Victory closed on the enemy line, Captain Hardy decided to take his ship past the rear of the Bucentaure. The enemy shot had already been cutting into the ship for some minutes and many men were already dead or wounded including Nelson's secretary, John Scott, and eight Marines stationed on the poop deck. Seeing this Nelson ordered the Captain of Marines, Charles Adair, to disperse his men about the ship, a far reaching order in that the Marines would have dealt with French sharpshooters, and perhaps saved Nelsons life.
 
       Nelson seems to have been sure he was going to die in this battle, many times saying final farewells to friends and desperately trying to ensure that Lady Hamilton and his daughter Horatia would be looked after when he died. He certainly took no steps to avoid death, Captain Blackwood suggested he moved his flag to the Euryalus to direct the battle from there, but he refused. And several people were concerned that he was wearing his stars of honour on his coat, making him an obvious target.

    On the fo'c'sle the Bosun William Willmet waited beside the larboard (Port) 68 pounder carronade, one of Victory's two 'smashers' as they were known. (Image of Victorys' 68 pounder carronade). It had been loaded with a round shot and a keg of 500 musket balls, and as Victory passed within touching distance of Bucentaure's stern, he fired the carronade into her, raking the French ship from ene to end and mowing down the sailors manning their guns. As the Victory continued to sail past, her lower deck guns opened fire as one by one they came to bear."
 
  This site is immense and is written very concisely.  I'm certainly no expert on this Battle or this era in history, but I believe I can tell the difference between logical, well written history and the efforts of hacks.  I believe this description belongs in the former group. 
 
 

 
   Would yours have trunnions?     
 
  If it was to have trunnions then wouldn't it be called a Gunnade and not a Carronade?   
 
      No, ours would not have trunnions, being a 1/2 scale re-creation of the 68 pounder Carronade aboard the HMS Victory, a photo of which I posted yesterday.
 
      From my research over the past two or three years, I have come to understand that these short tubed cannon first appeared in 1778 at the Carron Iron Foundry in Falkirk, Scotland.  They were really short and did not have that characteristic Nozzle at the muzzle as later versions did.  They were also fitted with trunnions on the bore centerline, no less!  By 1781, they started to be made with the underlug instead of trunnions and they were 25% longer too.
 
      The Nozzle came along by around 1790.   The inner surface of the Nozzle, the funnel shaped portion, called the "Hollow", was not designed as an aid to loading as most of us suspected.  It was designed as a flash-hider, or actually a flash re-director.  Naval services experimenting with these new cannon had a common complaint.  The muzzle blast of these guns regularly caught both tackle and rigging on fire as they recoiled into the ship!!  The Nozzle directed the emerging, hot, muzzle gasses straight out and prevented fires aboard the ships using them.  You could say an added benefit would be easier loading during the heat of battle.
 
      The terms Carronade and Gunnade are more confusing than the evolution of this design.  From what we have read over several years, it is clear that both the Scotts and the British called both the early form with trunnions a Carronade and also the later forms with the underlug.  In the United States, generally speaking, until most of these guns were once again produced with trunnions for stability in the 1830s to 40s, they were referred to as Carronades, after that we see very, very few references to gunnades, but there are a few.

Tracy

[Double D]

64 PDR  Carronade at touching distance...lets see 1/2 scale carronade at half scale touching distance...let us all know so the rest of us can move back up on the hill and watch you torch that sucker off...we will stock up on bandaids, cause you are going to need them...

[KABAR2]

64 PDR  Carronade at touching distance...lets see 1/2 scale carronade at half scale touching distance...let us all know so the rest of us can move back up on the hill and watch you torch that sucker off...we will stock up on bandaids, cause you are going to need them...

If they build a gun port to hide behind it shouldn't be too bad.........
 
 

[seacoastartillery]

 

... 14" diameter at the Base-Ring.  How the heck are we going to make that?
 
 On a really big lathe???  I don't think that would fit on my 17x54. 

 
    George,   I just figured out how to do it, because our 16 X 60 will not turn that diameter either.  We will use the Bridgeport and the rotary table to machine those large diameters.  We will build a functional tube from a round of 4150 steel heat treated to Rc 30 that is 42" long and 7.5" in diameter.  Reduced by turning at the breech/cascable end and the front 1/3 also and drilled and bored to a 4" dia. for 30" and a Chamber bored to 2.5" for 5", it will go from weighing 436 Lbs. to just 250 Lbs. even.  The exterior will be all cylinders for the easy application of traditional profile segments made of surplus yard steel and shaped like 1" or 2" thick barbell weights, the underlug welded to one and the front sight mass welded to another.  These will add the extra required weight, 250 pounds, for effective recoil reduction and the proper historical profile as well.  They can to applied at the range and tightened by screwing the last segment onto the functional tube just behind the Nozzle with a very large spanner wrench.  All segments will be bored for a 7.502/7.500 inch no wiggle, slip fit and keyed together with die bullets.      Am I missing something important??
 
     Double D. and KABAR2,   We really don't want to be THAT close, the specified 200 yards will be close enough!  We enlarged the photo below to find an answer to DD's question about the range of the original 68 Pdr. Carronade, namely 450 yards Point Blank and 1,200 or 1,300 yards maximum range.  Also you can see from the adult's waist, at approximately 40" high, that the gunwhale nearby of about the same height would offer some protection if you were to crouch behind it.  As far as which style of cannon was most useful, well that is a matter of more than a little speculation.  In our opinions, these guns satisfied and were effective in supporting the ship to ship tactics of that day, late 1700s and early 1800s, where the most often encountered tactics involved closing with and boarding the enemy ship.  The "Smashers" were awfully good at causing mayhem at under 450 yards.  It goes without saying that the ship which had long guns and Carronades was better suited to fight a battle in more of a variety of weather, location and enemy tactical conditions.
 
 Mike and Tracy


If this is the 68 Pounder Carronade that did a number on the Bucentaure in 1805, it would be the port side of the Forecastle on which it is positioned, with the quarter deck down and to the left and Victory's bow to the right.

[flagman1776]

My down the street neighbor is active in one of our state's Chartered Commands.  Legally State Militia (and uniforms & equipment tax deductable) they answer to the Governor through the Adjutant General.  When not otherwise occupied they perform ceremonial duties for the state.  One of the batteries purchased an original Parrott rifle duplicating the ones their unit was originally armed with.  They particitated in a muster which included a shelling of their own version of Fort Pallet.  Each gun took their turn to fire (expecting it to take some time to take effect).  Their first round was a direct hit, demolishing the Fort. 
I'm not in the unit so I don't know how they aimed or the load but the pictures were impressive.  Perhaps what is needed is not a bigger gun but better sights...  I know they not only drill, they practice on his farm.   (When the unit was first formed, they were having a drill...  somebody called the State Police.  Said it "sounded like a cannon going off."   Trooper pulls in the yard, turns around & leaves:  "Yup, cannon going off!")       

[shred]

While I have zero experience breaking things with cannon, I do have quite a bit of time shooting 2x4's and 4x4's in the form of team-v-team 'stump shoots' using more recent firearms (setup a few 3' lengths of wood vertically, then start the buzzer.  The first piece of wood to be cut in half such that the top hits the ground wins-- a 2-person version is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcRxVodW6U).  My observations there show that it takes a surprisingly large number of reasonably well-aimed bullets to saw through a 2x4.  Larger bullets and shotgun slugs do better, but still only remove a piece of wood more or less equivalent to the slug size and wood is stringy and holds together well. 

Based on historical reports of the danger of shipboard combat being more flying splinters and less collapsing decks, I'd guess that the effects may scale up as well.
In the gunpowder era, until the advent of explosive shells, the most effective attack on stone and earth castles was burrowing underneath and blowing up a section of wall.  Who wants to mine Fort Pallet ?