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Offline Dinny

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Bullet Variances
« on: January 23, 2012, 05:02:19 PM »
The picture shows two different bullets that are labeled as the same brand and model - Hornady #3505. Clearly they're not the same though. I have no doubt that they may be the same model number but is it normal to have this much variance? They are not from the same box.







Thanks, Dinny




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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 07:21:40 PM »
I picked  up 4 boxs of PMC 150-grain for the 270 at a cut rate price.  Three boxs have the same bullet, 4th box has the same product number but the bullet is a little different.  The design of the box is slightly different.
 
I wonder if Hornady change the  style a little when the went from the  standard cup  and core bullet, and added the  Interlock in the late  sixties.
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Offline ratdog

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 08:58:37 PM »
shot quite a bit of pmc 223 then shot some of my reloads what a difference pmc is junk.certainly don't sight your gun in with it. ;D
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 06:22:32 AM »
ratdog

As I have stated many times before my Ruger M77 tang model was a total disappointment with Remington, Winchester, and Federal factory ammunition.  I was ready to sell the rifle when I tried loading for it.  I found that handloading improved the accuracy.

At the same sale that I purchased the PMC 270 ammunition I purchased four boxes of 160-grain ammunition for my 7MM Magnum.  This ammunition produced the tightest factory group at 100 yards the rifle created with factory ammunition since new in 1979.



When hunting I will continue to use my loads.

But in support of ratdog’s argument the 150-grain PMC in an accurate a Remington 760 is 270 Winchester shot four-inch groups.  The same rifle with handloaded 150-grain WW Power Points and 150-grain Hornady Spire Point is accurate.



Group is with handloaded 150-grain Power Points pushed with H4831.  I should note that for some reason that same rifle does not like factory loaded 150-grain PP, but another 270 does.

But it is time for me to get back to the subject of Dinny’s post.  Over the last fifty years there has been a slight change in the 150-grain WWPP or in at least one or two production runs.  I will take a look and see if I still have the two different profiles on hand.  I believe the change was in the tip.







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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 06:55:26 AM »
I have seen quite a few variences within bullet lots. So I try to limit as many variences with my reloading components as I can before hand.
 
For the guns that I will use to shoot at long range, I weigh my bullets into groups that are within a few 10ths of a grain of eachother. I resize all my cases...new ones as well. I trim cases to length and turn the necks. Then I weigh the cases into groups as well.  This has given me very good uniformity with my reloads and my long range rifles have proven to be very accurate with these steps.
 
With big game rifles, I still take a lot of steps to ensure uniformity, but not to the extreme that I do with my long range shooting (Varmint Hunting). I do weigh each powder charge regardless...
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Offline bigvarmnt

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 08:52:03 AM »
Did you weigh them both and measure both?
Is the cannelure in a different place but both measure the same length?
The one on the right looks chubbier :-*
Different lot #s?
Boxes look the same or one older, diff. from other?
Maybe you have found a collectable :-\ ;D
Load five of each and see what they do. Good luck ;)
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Offline BBF

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 09:23:28 AM »
Many many years ago I loaded Speer 35 cal bullets. One outing at the Range showed a sudden change in POI and group spread. After some head scratching an a lot of mumblings I noticed that the heel of the bullet had changed from a sharp angle to one slightly more rounded. That made the difference in group size and POI.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 03:31:46 PM »
I bet one is from a much older lot that sat on a shelf for a few years.  If it were me, I'd call Hornady with the lot numbers and see if they can tell what's up.  I know about 4-5 years ago they re-built their plant to be green and have automated lighting and a lot of other changes.  Maybe some machines were upgraded/changed at that time also.  Who knows, if you explain your issue with variance in styles for loading they might swap the old one for a newer.  ;)
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Offline BBF

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 10:21:24 AM »
Do they shoot differently?
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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 11:31:53 AM »
Quote from: BBF on January 24, 2012, 09:23:28 AM
Many many years ago I loaded Speer 35 cal bullets. One outing at the Range showed a sudden change in POI and group spread. After some head scratching an a lot of mumblings I noticed that the heel of the bullet had changed from a sharp angle to one slightly more rounded. That made the difference in group size and POI.

I noticed that very same thing while out shooting my .308...my point of aim would shift randomly with some freshly loaded ammo. Nice tight group then suddenly...there would be this random flyer.
 
I went home and looked at the components that I had used and found that the bullets that I had used seemed to be two different weights in the same box. I now weigh all the bullets in a box before I load them. I group them by weight.
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Dinny

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 01:55:23 PM »
Quote from: BBF on January 25, 2012, 10:21:24 AM
Do they shoot differently?


I haven't had time to load any, probably get a chance sometime after February 2013. :o


Thanks, Dinny
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 12:11:44 AM »
Quote from: -Dinny on January 23, 2012, 05:02:19 PM
The picture shows two different bullets that are labeled as the same brand and model - Hornady #3505. Clearly they're not the same though. I have no doubt that they may be the same model number but is it normal to have this much variance? They are not from the same box.







Thanks, Dinny

Dinny,
 what is the age of the bullets? I mean is one box appreciably older then the other?
 
The profile is different, the OAL is different, the placement of the cannalure is different AND the actual cannalure width is different too. This is NOT the same bullet!
Is this the only one of is the whole box the same... err different... err ::) you know what I mean. ;)
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 03:49:06 PM »
CW,
  Aging them is difficult. The one that is in the original box may be a few years old. It's not in the newest box design, but the next newest one. The other bullet came from a recent deal I made and is repackaged in a plastic box. In each box, all the bullets match each other. Does someone else make another bullet similar in design to the Hornady 180gr SS-PB? Maybe Hornady made one that was slightly different years ago?


It's definitely not a Speer 180gr FP. I have some of those too and they aren't even close.


Thanks, Dinny
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 03:52:37 PM »
Did you happen to email Hornady on these?  Be interesting to know if there's a real reason for the variance.  ;)
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 04:00:33 PM »
Quote from: tacklebury on January 26, 2012, 03:52:37 PM
Did you happen to email Hornady on these?  Be interesting to know if there's a real reason for the variance.  ;)


Not yet, but I plan to. Today being a "short" day meant working from 0530-2030. The last two days I worked until 2300. :o


Thanks, Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 04:16:23 PM »
Dohh, that's rough.  8(
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 11:29:59 PM »
I was going to ask if these might be reboxed "seconds"... If so about anything is possible as its out fo the manufacturers hands.
 
I would not even bother calling the factory, they likely came thru Midway. I have bought these bullets too and nearly every box has something funky inside! Why, just last week in a box of 86G 25-20 bullets had a FMJ 86g "looking" bullet!! LOL I am not certin but consider these cheap bullets "seconds"...
 
CW
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 01:12:48 PM »
CW,
  That's a good point you make. I never was even thinking about "seconds". I bet you're right!


Thanks, Dinny
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Offline Barstooler

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Re: Bullet Variances
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 03:06:37 PM »
Older Speer, Hornady, & Sierra boxes -- and by old I mean the 60s  when Sierra was still based in Californica -- did not print lot numbers on the individual boxes.  By the 80s just about every bullet company was printing the lot number on the box.
 
Suspect you have an older box.
 
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