Author Topic: BP measure (Read 1097 times)

AtlLaw · « **on:** January 27, 2012, 05:22:00 AM »

I played around with another idea the other night in my never ending quest to make my reloading more efficient.

Now, I really like my combustable cartridges. When I make my belt/holster rig I'm going to include a revolver cartridge box to carry a couple of 6 round packs and my snail capper. But they are a lot of work to make, considering how fast they are shot up at the range.

My heretofore practice of scooping powder into my rifle powder measure to get my charge for each cylinder was really a pain. So, I says to myself, "Self, why don't you check that set of Lee measures and see if one holds exactly 20 gr. of FFFg?" That way I could scoop and measure at the same time!

Well, after a bit of scoop, level, dump in scale pan & weigh, none did.

Then I grabbed a fired 38 Spl. case. It dropped just a bit over 20 gr. by weight!

Now I have another project...

Attach a handle to the .38 case, after it is shortened to hold exactly 20 gr. that is, and I will have a convenient combined scoop/measure!

I'll bet nobody has ever done that before...

El Gringo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2012, 06:04:40 AM »

Why not use a flask with a 20 gr spout?
And I'm pretty sure BP measures by volume not weight, why are you using a scale?

Fingers McGee · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:41:29 AM »

Quote from: El Gringo on January 27, 2012, 06:04:40 AM

Why not use a flask with a 20 gr spout?
And I'm pretty sure BP measures by volume not weight, why are you using a scale?

Spouts and dippers are volumetric equivalents of a given weight of BP. AtlLaw's .38 special case is a volumetric equivalent of 20 grains in weight of whatever powder he is measuring

AtlLaw · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:01:39 AM »

Ya know, I'm pretty sure I have a 20 gr. spout for my flask... $:-\$ I may try that also!

Quote

I'm pretty sure BP measures by volume not weight, why are you using a scale?

Oh boy, here we go again...

I'll skip the part where I learned that drams equivalent of smokeless powder isn't the same as drams of black powder. Matter of fact, I'll skip the whole bit about measuring BP substitutes and grains by volume!

Here is my take on the weight vs. volume issue. And remember, I've been wrong before... Well, actually I can't remember ever being wrong, but modesty demands I admit the possibility.

As you say, volume and weight are both ways of measuring something. As long as the "something" is the same, 20 grains is 20 grains no matter which method you use. And they are not mutually exclusive as you suggest.

A little historical fantasy may be usefull here. You can see that that our muzzle loader carrying fore fathers would have found it, um, inconvenient, to carry a scale around to measure each load. So Davy's Great Great Grandaddy says to Daniel's Great Great Grandaddy, "Daniel" he says, "why don't we just holler out this horn tip so it will hold the amount of powder we want to use for each shot?" Voila! Measurement by volume is born!

But maybe, you say, volume came before weight in measuring powder charges! Well, consider the possibility that back in the day when a gunsmith built a rifle for someone, finding the most accurate powder charge for that particular rifle was part of the process. If so, including some form of volume measure for that charge with the rifle would also be part of the process. Maybe they didn't even know, or care, what that charge weighed.

But then if we think about the "packaged," paper or otherwise, cartridges we can understand that volume would be a meaningless expression in the description of a charge. For example, when the military let out ammunition contracts they specified charges in grains of powder. I mean, they couldn't very well have said "I will pay you to make a million pistol cartridges, with a .375" conical bullet over Great Grandaddy Davy's measure of powder" now could they! So the volume started being specified in grains!

But still, whether a load of BP is 20 gr. by weight or by volume, it is still 20 grains. And grains is a unit of measurement by weight, not volume, so the base measurement is weight, not volume. The measurement would be meaningless otherwise!

I think, as if anyone cares what I think, that the confusion began with the introduction of "Grains Equivalent by Volume." But boys and girls... that is a pontification for another time!

Whatever... $:-\$ I'm going to determine the length to cut the .38 Spl. case to based on the space occupied by 20 gr. of FFFG by weight and then I'm going to load my revolvers measuring the 20 grain charge by that volume.

I tell ya, sometime my logic amazes my own darn self!

Of course I have no cites for any of the above, just my own opinion which, like butts, everyone has!

But all this has got me thinking.

I wonder if there is a weight difference between 20 gr. by volume of FFFg and FFg? $:-\$ Seems to me that the smaller grains would use up more space thus the density of the volume would be greater hence the weight... $:-\$ $:-\$ I know that my volume measure is 2-3 gr. shy of the weight measure with FFFg, maybe it was calibrated for FFg... $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$ It is made for measuring rifle charges... but wait!

If my hypothesis was correct wouldn't the measure of FFFg be 2-3 gr. over?

No, that's right... if FFFg was more dense it would take up less space then FFg and the volume was calibrated for FFg as this is a rifle measure and... and... and I need a drink.... $:-\$

AtlLaw · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:03:57 AM »

Um, what Fingers said...

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:57:10 AM »

So you take a Lee Dipper that throws a slightly larger charge, then use a self tapping screw and stick it into the Dipper, a bit of fiddling with different size or how far you leave it out will adjust to what you need. A drop or so of epoxy fast set will lock it up for you.

ironball · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:17:43 AM »

For loading a gun, I like my old CVA round flask because I have many different size spouts. For measuring BP into tubes, or cartrdges, the Lee dipper is the fastest for me.

If you have the ancient chart like the one that came with my old Lee dippers, you can see exactly how much difference a given scoop measures Fg, FFg. FFFg. or FFFg. So yes, there is a 2 or 3 grain difference between FFg and FFFg with lighter charges, and 6 or 7 with the bigger scoops.

El Gringo · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:57:54 AM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on January 27, 2012, 08:01:39 AM

Ya know, I'm pretty sure I have a 20 gr. spout for my flask... $:-\$ I may try that also!

Quote
I'm pretty sure BP measures by volume not weight, why are you using a scale?

   Oh boy, here we go again... I'll skip the part where I learned that drams equivalent of smokeless powder isn't the same as drams of black powder. Matter of fact, I'll skip the whole bit about measuring BP substitutes and grains by volume!

Here is my take on the weight vs. volume issue. And remember, I've been wrong before... Well, actually I can't remember ever being wrong, but modesty demands I admit the possibility.

As you say, volume and weight are both ways of measuring something. As long as the "something" is the same, 20 grains is 20 grains no matter which method you use. And they are not mutually exclusive as you suggest.

A little historical fantasy may be usefull here. You can see that that our muzzle loader carrying fore fathers would have found it, um, inconvenient, to carry a scale around to measure each load. So Davy's Great Great Grandaddy says to Daniel's Great Great Grandaddy, "Daniel" he says, "why don't we just holler out this horn tip so it will hold the amount of powder we want to use for each shot?" Voila! Measurement by volume is born!

But maybe, you say, volume came before weight in measuring powder charges! Well, consider the possibility that back in the day when a gunsmith built a rifle for someone, finding the most accurate powder charge for that particular rifle was part of the process. If so, including some form of volume measure for that charge with the rifle would also be part of the process. Maybe they didn't even know, or care, what that charge weighed.

But then if we think about the "packaged," paper or otherwise, cartridges we can understand that volume would be a meaningless expression in the description of a charge. For example, when the military let out ammunition contracts they specified charges in grains of powder. I mean, they couldn't very well have said "I will pay you to make a million pistol cartridges, with a .375" conical bullet over Great Grandaddy Davy's measure of powder" now could they! So the volume started being specified in grains!

But still, whether a load of BP is 20 gr. by weight or by volume, it is still 20 grains. And grains is a unit of measurement by weight, not volume, so the base measurement is weight, not volume. The measurement would be meaningless otherwise!

I think, as if anyone cares what I think, that the confusion began with the introduction of "Grains Equivalent by Volume." But boys and girls... that is a pontification for another time!

Whatever... $:-\$ I'm going to determine the length to cut the .38 Spl. case to based on the space occupied by 20 gr. of FFFG by weight and then I'm going to load my revolvers measuring the 20 grain charge by that volume.

I tell ya, sometime my logic amazes my own darn self!    Of course I have no cites for any of the above, just my own opinion which, like butts, everyone has!

But all this has got me thinking.    I wonder if there is a weight difference between 20 gr. by volume of FFFg and FFg? $:-\$ Seems to me that the smaller grains would use up more space thus the density of the volume would be greater hence the weight... $:-\$ $:-\$ I know that my volume measure is 2-3 gr. shy of the weight measure with FFFg, maybe it was calibrated for FFg... $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$ It is made for measuring rifle charges... but wait!    If my hypothesis was correct wouldn't the measure of FFFg be 2-3 gr. over?    No, that's right... if FFFg was more dense it would take up less space then FFg and the volume was calibrated for FFg as this is a rifle measure and... and... and I need a drink.... $:-\$

I think I'm pickin up what your putting out... but man I need a drink now too!

Bigeasy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:59:53 AM »

Richard
Do what I did years ago - take a 38spl. case, then grind the mouth of a 30-06 case to match the curve of the 38, and solder it on. Mine worked fine for years, and I still have it in a box somewhere.

Larry

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2012, 01:18:31 PM »

Quote from: El Gringo on January 27, 2012, 06:04:40 AM

Why not use a flask with a 20 gr spout?
And I'm pretty sure BP measures by volume not weight, why are you using a scale?

I was told to use the Flask to fill a measure.
Even if that measure is an old used ctg. If some how you dump the flask in to something with a spark you are not holding a gernade. Have one step between the flask and the cylinder.

52bagman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2012, 01:56:07 PM »

I'm with you on weighing BP. I worked at getting my muzzloaders to shoot by adjusting the loose powder until I came up with an accurate load of which I then weighed that charge. Now I just sit down, weigh out ten or so loads and I'm ready to go with no afterthoughts.
Get the right volume, weigh that and duplicate by weight.

powderman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2012, 03:40:01 PM »

RICHARD. I made dippers starting 35-40 yrs ago using different sized empty cases. If too big I cut solid cardboard just oversized and seated it with force inside the empty case of choice. In all those years I never had any cardboard come loose. I had no way to shorten the case but that would be even better. For handles I used coated copper electrical wire. Leave the plastic on the handle and strip enough to go around the case and twist it tight, leaving a loop on the handle end. Using a rimless case is of course easier to attach the handle. Don't think I ever used a rimmed case for a measure though. Chk several different cases for volume. 9mm, 380, etc. POWDERMAN.

mechanic · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2012, 05:54:27 PM »

Richard,

Good idea. I've used this for smokeless powder for years. If I'm loading say...Bullseye for a 38, I cut the case down until it holds ALMOST the charge I want, then I trickle the rest into the scale. That case is marked with an engraving tool....Bullseye, 2.8gr. etc.

Then after much labor making measures, my Dad gave me a set of Lee measures, the price tag on the box from way back then is $3.99.

You could have a marked case for each charge you throw, and it would certainly be accurate enough for sulfurous powders!

Ben

ironball · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28, 2012, 05:32:21 AM »

Mine is marked $3.95. I guess I got a better deal. LOL!

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2012, 06:38:10 AM »

I work up loads with an adjustable volumetric measure but for revolvers I prefer to load directly from a flask and if necessary will modify a spout to throw the charge I had established as best with the adjustable measure.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2012, 09:34:20 AM »

Watch me close boys... $:-\$ I think I'm loosing my grip on things!

I know I wrote a long post yesterday about all the good info and replies in this thread! I think I addressed each post and talked about all the different ways of making a dipper, an extra step like McWoody said, 'cept mine referred to what I had always been told about loading a rifle, a step between horn and muzzle, and all kinds of other stuff! And now I see it ain't there!

Oh well. Y'all going to have to take my word for it...

Anyway, last night, being all fired up by all y'alls suggestions, I started filling and weighing cases again. Seems like the 30 Carbine case holds right at 20 grains. So I filed a depression in a 30-06 case mouth and JB Welded the two together. Think I'll drop it in my case cleaner to get it looking pretty.

I also found some empty .410 cases while I was rummaging around. So I eyeballed a length that looked like it would hold a usefull amount of powder, took my Japanese saw and cut the case down. Wouldn't ya know, it held exactly 30 grains!

So I cut another a little shorter and, with a little trimming, got one to hold 25 grains. Ima happy boy!

I glued another .410 shell to the 25 gr. measure for a handle, but left the 30 gr. measure handleless.

Now, these items aren't exactly what I would make up for inclusion in a presentation set, but I think they will work just fine for what I need.

Pulp · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:41:57 AM »

Or you could get a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The scale on the dispenser is marked in CC. Set the measure for, say 2 cc, throw three or four charges, put them back in the hopper, then throw and weigh a charge. If it's too heavy or too light, adjust the scale. You can use these to fill paper cartridges.

Expounding on AtlLaw's thread, I've also read that the old timers would cup their hand, put a ball in it, and pour enough powder to cover the ball into their hand. Believe it or not, you can get pretty doggone accurate at measuring charges this way.

Remember Justin Wilson's Cajun cooking show? He would pour salt into his palm, tell the crowd it was a teaspoon, tablespoon or whatever, then to proove it he would pour from his hand into a measuring spoon. He had it right every time.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2012, 07:32:06 AM »

Quote from: Pulp on January 31, 2012, 02:41:57 AM

old timers would cup their hand, put a ball in it, and pour enough powder to cover the ball into their hand.

Yup! Can't remember the first time I heard that, but it was way back!

Quote

Remember Justin Wilson's Cajun cooking show?

I saw him do that and it impressed me so much I 'sperimented with it a bit and that's the way I do it now!

And it's close enough! I Ga-ron-tee!

mechanic · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2012, 11:58:39 AM »

Richard, do you measure your wine the same way as Justin?

Ben

AtlLaw · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2012, 02:08:34 PM »

I don't remember how he did it Ben!

I can't believe I forgot that...

Of course that doesn't mean I do more cookin then drinkin!

tellmetellmetellme!

mechanic · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2012, 03:06:48 PM »

He would always say, we'll just add a lil wine, (pouring half a bottle), drinks a gulp, adds some more then drinks the rest.........

And he cooked everything with onyons.

Funny thing, he looked almost like my Dad.

Ben

AtlLaw · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2012, 03:50:06 PM »

You mean un-yown!

mechanic · « **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2012, 04:55:46 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on January 31, 2012, 03:50:06 PM

You mean un-yown!

You're correct...my Cajun spellin' ain't too good.

Ben