Low End New 30-06's?

[Swampman]

In the long run the Stevens 200 (or any Savage) is a poor investment.

[Singleshotsam]

There is no accuracy issue with a Remington.

That's also a false statement.  Every factory gun has CONSISTANCY issues involved with accuracy.  Remington, Tikka, Savage, Ruger, Marlin, Weatherby... ect.  Glass bedding the action to the stock, hand lapping the bore, reloading, trigger tuning, ect... all improve shot to shot consistancy therefore improving the abliity to accurately predict where each bullet will land.

[Swampman]

Remington 700s don't need any of that.  They are the most accurate production rifle in the world.  You can waste your time and money but they won't shoot better than they do right out of the box.

[Singleshotsam]

In the long run the Stevens 200 (or any Savage) is a poor investment.

Any of the guns the OP mentioned are a poor investment.  But given the choices the Stevens 200 action is the best candidate in the running for both customization and/or resale value. 

[Singleshotsam]

Remington 700s don't need any of that.  They are the most accurate production rifle in the world.  You can waste your time and money but they won't shoot better than they do right out of the box.

In what world do you live in man!?
 
The military doesn't use out of the box ADL's for their sniper programs.  World champion shooters don't use cheap SPS rifles out of the box.  That's an insanely ignorant statement Swampman.

[Swampman]

The Stevens 200 will have a $200.00 reasle value no matter what you do to it.
 
I said the most accurate production rifle in the world.  That's the Model 700.....Just the facts...that's all

[SHOOTALL]

With little effort a 700ADL can be upgraded to a better stock . It can be fitted with any scope ( a much better place to invest anyway) . Those two up grades alone can give one a great hunting rifle. My son bought a used 2506 Rem 700 and only added a good VX-3 scope with 50mm obj and it has been a tack driver for 10 years now. the stock is org , no beding .
I have a Ruger that comes close to accuracy but its a 300 win mag and all factory with a 3-9 scope , it might be more acc with a better scope.
For a shooter looking for value either gun would be a good choice but the ruger at a little more cost comes with base and rings .
When one buys some of the "new" economy guns its important to look at where savings were accomplished .Look in places like the way the bolt was put togather and how it protects the shooter . Its not all cosmetics and plastic stocks and painted metal.
 
As for most accurate even if all the rifles made on a production line were lined up and tested it would only tell what that one rifle did not total production of the model. All brands have good to not so good

[Singleshotsam]

With little effort a 700ADL can be upgraded to a better stock . It can be fitted with any scope ( a much better place to invest anyway) . Those two up grades alone can give one a great hunting rifle. My son bought a used 2506 Rem 700 and only added a good VX-3 scope with 50mm obj and it has been a tack driver for 10 years now. the stock is org , no beding .
I have a Ruger that comes close to accuracy but its a 300 win mag and all factory with a 3-9 scope , it might be more acc with a better scope.
For a shooter looking for value either gun would be a good choice but the ruger at a little more cost comes with base and rings .
When one buys some of the "new" economy guns its important to look at where savings were accomplished .Look in places like the way the bolt was put togather and how it protects the shooter . Its not all cosmetics and plastic stocks and painted metal.
 
As for most accurate even if all the rifles made on a production line were lined up and tested it would only tell what that one rifle did not total production of the model. All brands have good to not so good

Finally, somebody who gets it   In order to get a REALLY accurate and reliable rifle you have to upgrade!!!!
 

[Swampman]

That's nonsense....you can make a Model 700ADL pretty but it won't be more accurate or more reliable.

[Singleshotsam]

That's nonsense....you can make a Model 700ADL pretty but it won't be more accurate or more reliable.

You can make it more consistantly accurate at long ranges.  Just because your gun groups pretty at 100 yards doesn't mean it will preform well unaltered at 800 yards.

[Swampman]

I'm not talking about pretty groups.  You can make a Remington more pleasing to the eye, but after you spend $1000.00 more dollars they'll still shoot 1/2 MOA all day long just like they did when they left the factory.  It doesn't hurt to adjust the trigger which takes 5 minutes but the rest is just fluff.  As for the Savage/Stevens line, you can polish a turd but you'll still have a turd.

[usherj]

None of my statements had any hidden meeting. I already mentioned the aftermarket issue earlier.
There was a published study done a few years ago to assess accuracy improvements in the 700 and each ones' measurable effect. The bedding did not make much of difference, but the biggest improvement was from fire lapping using the David Tubb final polish system and tuning the trigger. I noticed this after I had traded in the rifle and couldn't help wondering if that would have helped. Live and learn I guess. I will say the ADL I had was a sweet handling rifle with no problems with the stock. Here is the link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm
 

[Swampman]

I would never lap a barrel.  You're just wearing it out.

[usherj]

I agree with you on that one. When premium barrel makers do it on new barrels using the lead lap and very fine grit/oil compound and the back and forth passes, they understand that dimensional variations are introduced at each end. That is why the barrel fitter "cleans-up" the barrel at each end by cutting off a certain amount before ctting threads, chambering and crowning. On an installed barrel, you have to live with those variations, no matter how small. A bench rest shooter/gunsmith recently told me that the bullet is going on a ride in the barrel and the most disturbing parts of the ride are getting on (throat) and getting off (muzzle crown). Problems at either end have the greatest effect.

[flmason]

In the long run the Stevens 200 (or any Savage) is a poor investment.

Any of the guns the OP mentioned are a poor investment.  But given the choices the Stevens 200 action is the best candidate in the running for both customization and/or resale value.

Agreed, it's not about investment though, least not in ROI sense. Just wondering if these low end guns at least meet the standard of "good gun but crappy finishes". I.e. just no money wasted on cosmetics. Simply put, I'd like a 30-06, can't justify a lot of $$$ for it. Was out looking and surprised to see major brand guns at said prices in existence.

Being a milsurp fan (but would rather military new in box, LOL!) I don't need a gun that looks like a Weatherby Mark V. Like 'em, but not necessary for me to be happy. But I do like "pristine" when possible, so hence focus on new in box.  Would rather buy new and maintain well. Just a personal preference.

But yes, given choice between NIB cheapie and well maintained classic at same price... classic wins. Always bought cars that way. Used but higher quality. Back when I had a decent collection of guns, most were used.

This time around, was just trying to stick with new. Though even that doesn't really work. Much like guitars down at the local Guitar Center, most have been jacked with even before they make it out the door. Least as it seems to me. I always try to be very gentle with the ones I look at because someone else may buy it if I don't. But I don't always see that in the general buying public.

[flmason]

I agree with you on that one. When premium barrel makers do it on new barrels using the lead lap and very fine grit/oil compound and the back and forth passes, they understand that dimensional variations are introduced at each end. That is why the barrel fitter "cleans-up" the barrel at each end by cutting off a certain amount before ctting threads, chambering and crowning. On an installed barrel, you have to live with those variations, no matter how small. A bench rest shooter/gunsmith recently told me that the bullet is going on a ride in the barrel and the most disturbing parts of the ride are getting on (throat) and getting off (muzzle crown). Problems at either end have the greatest effect.

Good points. The muzzle end is pretty easy to understand. What I don't know much about is the throat end. Have any wisdom to pass on?

Have a Mosin Nagant here. No idea when I'll be able to test it out. Want to make some rounds for it. Pretty much always been a reloader, but only have the Lee Loader. So's interested in chasing accuracy no matter the particular gun. If necessary (doesn't look like it though) recrowning is easy enough to understand. Can anything be done on the other end, ideally by myself? With care I don't see a recrown being out of my ability... but trying to shorten the other end... no way.

[JimBoIHN]

I bought a Marlin XL7 30-06 about 5 months ago. I found nothing wrong with the gun.
 After I set the scope (100yds) four of my last shots were touching.....It also has a very nice trigger right out the box!
 

 

 
So your Marlin xl7 shoots as good a group at 100 yards as my Remington 700 shoots at 300... Congratulations.


His group looks plenty good, for almost any purpose.  Part of the group was sight-in, as I read it.  Let's see the pictures of your 300 yard groups at 5/8 in.  Let's see 20 or so.  Even so, does it really matter which side of the eyeball gets blasted?

[Singleshotsam]

Let's see the pictures of your 300 yard groups at 5/8 in.

I don't think you really understand how the concept of rifle groups and MOA (minute of angle) work.  A 0.5" group at 100 yards is 1/2 moa more or less with 1" being MOA (Theres actually some decimal points involved but for the sake of easy math it's universally accepted to be 1" @ 100 yards).  At 200 yards an MOA group will measure 2".  A 1/2 moa group will measure 1".  At 300 yards an MOA group will be 3" and a 1/2 moa group will measure 1.5" 
 
My 300 yard group is 1/2 moa. (1.5" roughly plus bullet diameter figured in.  The larger the bullet the larger the group can be and still be considered MOA.)  Which translates to a .5" group at 100 yards.  Which is the picture I posted earlier if you cared to pay attention. 
 
Also, I'm not in any way suggesting that any of the three budget rifles listed will hold any ROI.  In fact if you decide to get rid of any of those 3 you will more than likely loose money because there is rarely a demand to pay full price for a used rifle when you can buy the same rifle new so cheap.
 
I'm suggesting that out of the three choices listed in the OP's statement, the only one that you will have any luck getting any resale value is the Stevens 200.  The only reason there is a demand for used Stevens 200 is because guys who want to build a custom savage will use one as a donor action.

Also, if you build a custom rifle off a Stevens 200 action then that gun is worth the parts you have in it.  My Remington .308 that started off life as an SPS tactical is now worth a lot more money because I have upgraded it from what it used to be.  I didn't get it done overnight.  I bought one piece at a time and assembled it as I went.  It's still far from where I want it to be but I don't have 2000.00 to finish it right now.  But since I was smart and bought a 700, I was able to start off shooting the factory SPS Tactical and slowly transform it into what I want.  I bought the rifle for 550.00 and now it's worth over 1000.00.  And Swampman, believe me, should I decide to sell it, I will easily get that money out of it and quickly.  It's worth twice the originals price I paid for it because it's been upgraded.

[SHOOTALL]

That's nonsense....you can make a Model 700ADL pretty but it won't be more accurate or more reliable.

That's a fair statement ! as the action is what it is . But what can be done is adding to tweaking to allow the shooter to get the most from the action. A better stock often fits the shooter better allowing him to use the gun better . Anyone who shoots enough to have a clue knows a better scope with more range of magnification makes it easier to make smaller groups . If the concept of a "better trigger " is not a consideration for the shooter trying to wring out the most his gun can offer he is blind to the facts .Did we mention truing the action or lapping the bore ?
As for reliable , there are operations that blueprinting and true the action.Then there different followers that smooth feeding. SPRINGS the number of springs with different rates and design on the market is almost endless many offering longer life than org.
 
You can go buy a F150 plain Jane truck and it will do about what a F150 XLT Lariat will do but most will do it better in the Lariat and have both a higher level of enjoyment and pride in ownership.

[Singleshotsam]

I'm sorry Shootall, but it's been established by others on this thread that if you need to hand lap a barrel, then the gun is not worth having... 

[Swampman]

"Upgrades" almost never add value.  It's like a swimming pool, it doesn't add value to a house.
 
Hand lapping a barrel is just wearing it out.  Just shoot it, that's all it needs.

[SHOOTALL]

I'm sorry Shootall, but it's been established by others on this thread that if you need to hand lap a barrel, then the gun is not worth having... 

  Needing to and wanting to is two different critters . Some here think they can buy a 200 buck single shot break open rifle and compete in 1000 yard shoots and expect to win too. That's interesting really since when I visited the custom shop at Remington that was one of the things that they do when they build a custom rifle lap the bore and bolt lugs. I watched the smith doing it and dicussed the value of it with him. Reduces break in time and breaks it in a controled operation. Yes shooting will do much the same but some compound on a pcs of lead passed thru the bbl cost less and does not wear the bbl nor errodes it in front of the chamber like fireing. It also aids in cleanning.
 
 
Excuse me if I side with Remington on this one .
 
Never add value , in some places a house with no pool won't sell.
 
So how did lowely me get in the custom shop ? Well on the way to Canada I saw a sign that said Remington offered daily tours at the plant. So I detoured by but was to late . I was looking around the gift shop and the lady running it ask where we were from and talked a little. She walked off . I heard some one come up from behind and ask if we were the couple fomr Va. It was a guy in a Remington Golf shirt . He said he couldn't take us in the main plant as it was shutting down and there would be little to see but if we had time the custom shop was open . It was a great time. I got to talk to their engraver and watch ( its easy for him ) , guys making stocks ( they have a CNC type machine and keep a tape for each customer and can duplicate it anytime in the future to fit your mesuments ), the guys making triggers , lapping bbls etc. The place was the cleanest shop I have been in.

[SHOOTALL]

I would add if those guys don't see value in it , they shouldn't feel forced to do it .

[Singleshotsam]

I would add if those guys don't see value in it , they shouldn't feel forced to do it .

I agree with that as well.  But MOST people I know who take the budget rifle route wind up wishing they could improve it somehow later down the road.  In most cases it's because of the extremely flimsy stocks. 
 
Also I might ask the OP what his choice of scope is going to be.  A decent optic is the most important part in shooting.

[Swampman]

The loss of 200-300 accurate shots at the end of a barrels life is pretty important when you consider some only last 1200 rounds.  I don't clean barrels so cleaning isn't an issue.  I'm content with a sporting weight 700 that shoots 1/2 MOA right out of the box with factory ammo.

[SHOOTALL]

The loss of 200-300 accurate shots at the end of a barrels life is pretty important when you consider some only last 1200 rounds.  I don't clean barrels so cleaning isn't an issue.  I'm content with a sporting weight 700 that shoots 1/2 MOA right out of the box with factory ammo.
[/quote
 
I would be also.  think what it would do if you up graded  it with a scope 
 
 

[Swampman]

They come with a scope........

[Singleshotsam]

They might come with a scope but its trash. 

[Swampman]

It will still shoot amazing groups right out of the box with the Bushnell scope that comes on it.  The point being is a Model 700 is well worth owning.

[usherj]

flmason,
On a milsurp rifle like your M-N, just enjoy shooting it. Since you handload, you should have a ball and will probably be surprised at the accuracy you get. Due to the cost and hassle, you would be better off searching out a replacement from the abundant supply on the market rather than having the barrel set back (remove certain length of barrel from shoulder, re-thread and rechamber). Not familiar with the rifle, but setting back bbl may also cause problems with retaining bands, etc that may be postioned at fixed points on barrel? Some bores that may not look pretty inside can be amazing shooters. Never know til you shoot it.
Lappers - please educate us by describing your barrel lapping process, the type of grit you use, and how you remove it from the lug recesses of the action?
Should we be discussing truing up receiver threads, bolt and action faces, and lapping in lugs when on a topic for a low end (budget) shooter? For someone looking to upgrade or replace their barrel, this is a worthy investment when taking it to the next level for sure.
I guess we are serving a useful purpose by warning people of the inevitable all-consuming, expensive, obsessive quest for accuracy improvement that develops when you start down that road...you have been warned!!! Save yourselves while you still have the chance!!