Keystone Pipeline Project

[Dinny]

What's the big deal with getting this passed? Why did the POTUS stop passage? I have only read a little bit about it and can't seem to see where we stand to lose a thing. I've been accused of being narrow minded, blind in one eye and unable to see outta the other, but all I can decipher of this is that we could be one step closer to breaking our Middle East oil dependence, creating more jobs for Americans and so what if we pay Canada for it - at least they're not trying to kill us.


http://www.transcanada.com/keystone.html




Thanks, Dinny

[BUGEYE]

oil independence would slow down obamas rush to turn us into greenie weenies.
when he campaigned, he said he wanted $5 gas and limits on electric use.
he's a commie to the bone.

[ironglow]

Dinny;
  You answered your own question; that is exactly what Obama DOES NOT want;
...
  " but all I can decipher of this is that we could be one step closer to breaking our Middle East oil dependence, creating more jobs for Americans and so what if we pay Canada for it - at least they're not trying to kill us."
 
 
 
   The "green excuse" is getting old..it is just a cover story for those who hate capitalism, America and all they stand for..

[Junior1942]

The big problem is that Nebraska doesn't want it to cross Nebraska.

[BUGEYE]

The big problem is that Nebraska doesn't want it to cross Nebraska.

I read somewhere that Ne. wanted jobs.

[Val]

The big problem is that Nebraska doesn't want it to cross Nebraska.

Absolutely a false statement. The pipeline was re-routed to avoid a area that the environmentalists were particulary sensitive about. Remember their are currently thousands of pipelines running all over of Country. This is just one more pipeline. The environmentalists are against it because it threatens the goal of converting the US to non-oil renewable energy sources. These renewable energy sources are not cost effective and would frive up everones energy costs and would drive more companies offshore so they can compete in the global economy.
In the past Obummer, stated that Spain is the model to follow in converting to green energy, Recently Spain stopped their green energy program. They could no longer afford the huge tax subsidies. For every green job created, 2.2 nongreen jobs were lost.

[SwampThing762]

What's the big deal with getting this passed? Why did the POTUS stop passage? I have only read a little bit about it and can't seem to see where we stand to lose a thing. I've been accused of being narrow minded, blind in one eye and unable to see outta the other, but all I can decipher of this is that we could be one step closer to breaking our Middle East oil dependence, creating more jobs for Americans and so what if we pay Canada for it - at least they're not trying to kill us.


http://www.transcanada.com/keystone.html




Thanks, Dinny

.
Well, because it may not be necessary or a good business decision in the first place..that's why.  Or in the best interest of consumers and those about to have their property condemned. That's why, too.  Seems proponents of the pipe have inundated media and political types with pro-pipe mythology, and immediately villianize those questioning their designs.  We need to slow down and look at this project more closely under the microscope, and seive out fact from fiction. It may just be alot better and sound to build refining plants on the border or in Canada. The Pipeline, Inc would be another intermediary in the fuel supply running up consumer costs, if that means anything. The claimed number of jobs created seems specious, too.  There's a whole lot of considerations here to be looked at rather than gung-ho we want a pipe.
.
I have every expectation that this would turn out to be another socialization of cost-privatization of profits project anyway.
 
..TM7

TM7,

Obama does not want to Keystone Pipeline, because he is a prostitute for the enviro-radicals who want Americans riding bicycles or a horse-drawn cart.

As for whether or not the pipeline is a good business decision, you know better than that.   It is all about supply and demand on two points -- (1)  An increase in domestic oil production stabilizes price of oil futures on the commodities market because there will relative stability of supply [hint -- shuts Iran up!], and (2) increased domestic oil production reduces the demand for foreign oil and the tariffs on it.

I will not bore you with the details of greater domestic oil operations reducing the price of gas, more people being able to afford gas, and the increased gasoline tax revenues going to government because of the higher volumes of fuel purchases.

I also think that we should build more refineries, and I actually support your notion of building regional pipelines and refineries.   There are some issues that we share agreement.     We should be expanding oil domestic production and building more pipelines and refineries.    I also support building some smaller biodiesel refining facilities to mix with standard truck diesel to extend the range of diesel trucks and contribute to energy independence.  We certainly have enough restaurants and fryer grease and vegetable oil to process into a renewable fuel supply, even if it is only a smaller portion of the bigger picture.   

ST762

[powderman]

DINNY. Obama is against everything that is good for America. Just another way to help destroy us. POWDERMAN. 

[magooch]

The problem is that Obwana gets more campaign support from the anti-pipe side than he gets from the pro-pipers.  One need not look any further than George Soros and others of the same ilk.

[Sourdough]

Many of the concerns the environmentalist cry about are mute in my book.  All they talk about is if there was a leak, the same thing they claimed about the Alaska Oil Pipeline.  The pipeline is 100 yards from my house, and I have been comfortable with it for the last 36 years.  There have been a few small leaks, and all were contained within the containment systems built into the infrastructure as designed.  The only spill that was not contained was when a drunk shot the pipe with a .338 Win Mag.  This pipeline has withstood the strongest earthquake ever recorded in North America, with no damage to the pipe.  I live comfortably with a pipeline everyday.  Also the Alaska Pipeline has been bombed two times, with no damage to the pipe.  All they did was blow off insulation.

The Keystone Pipeline would provide jobs, in the neighborhood of 20,000 direct workers.  Think of the support jobs that are never reported (ie) truck drivers delivering supplies, Local auto and equipment parts stores to support the heavy equipment and vehicles used.  Restaurants to feed the workers, clothing stores to cloth the workers, and on and on. 

Money going to Canada will find it's way back to the US, since they buy goods from the US.  Better going to Canada than the middle east.  If we don't buy it they will sell it to China.  It's going to be sold.

As mentioned before they have moved the pipeline right of way to avoid the aquifer some people were concerned about.  Many of the concerns expressed by so called environmentalist are grabbing at straws and greatly overstressed.  Take the Alaska pipeline for instance, all of the concerns and accompanying law suites, that delayed the pipeline for 10 years, have never happened, and are not likely to ever happen.

Last thing, when Congress (both parties) demanded the President quite sitting on it and make a decision, he claimed he had to disapprove it due to not having the time to give it proper review.  The permits had been sat on for over two years, with no action.  More than sufficient time to make an informed decision.  If President Obama really wanted to create jobs this is a project he should have embraced.  Instead he bowed to the environmental crowd, who are making big reelection contributions.   

[SwampThing762]

TM7,


Yes, the enviro-radicals do not want America to achieve energy independence.   The environmental lobby has successfully blocked any permits for new fuel refineries for nearly forty years, and the same for nuclear power.   

My whole point is that America must become energy independent, utilizing all technologies at her disposal.  there are regions and zones where solar energy is useful, once it reaches economy of scale.  Same goes for wind and hydro-electric.    Nuclear facilities should be established to provide power for cities and regions of larger population density, to supplement coal fired plants.  As far as operation of vehicles goes, I say drill, baby, drill.    Drill for natural gas, which burns cleanly compared to coal.  Drill for oil and refine into gasoline and diesel to power vehicles.  An investment into biodiesel refining equipment would also garner my support, as the biodiesel would come from vegetable and plant oils and get refined into fuel that can be combined with standard diesel for vehicle operations.

Electrical and hybrid cars are fine if a person has a choice, but I will not have them forced down my throat by making gas cost so much that there is no other choice.   

As far as the price of gas going up, that is all a product of Iran rattling its saber and the market reacting out of fear, and the calculations of commodities traders.   A diverse energy portfolio blunts the damage from that fear and speculation.
ST762
(Note:) I edited this because of barb slinging on your part. Stick to the subject and quit with the personal sparing. Flaming isn't going to cut it.!) NW

[mcbammer]

Canada   wouldnt   really   sale    that   oil   to   China   would   they
??

[Ranch13]

The big problem is that Nebraska doesn't want it to cross Nebraska.

That's wrong.
 The state wanted the pipleline moved a few miles to the east to avoid damage to some sensitive land. That was agreed to by the pipeline, but the Feds stopped it anyway.

[ironglow]

The big problem is that Nebraska doesn't want it to cross Nebraska.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
  Nebraska wants the pipeline and the JOBS !
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/19/nebraska-gov-heineman-expects-to-ask-obama-for-keystone-decision-before/

[mirage1988]

Question for tm7
You say oil is now our biggest export, there are 2 reasons for that, most of our manufactured goods are now made in china, and we are burning food in our gas tanks rather than exporting it. So even if we are exporting more oil than goods, it's not a fair comparison because american plants and factories are going out of business, not that we are selling more oil.

[Sourdough]

The current administration is stupidly using our food supply for fuel.  Yes, that is stupid.  That one issue has caused the prices of our food to go through the roof. 

With less corn on the market, the price of corn goes up.  The cost of feeding Beef, Hogs, Chickens, and Turkeys, goes up.  The cost of making other foods that uses high fructose corn syrup goes up.  Check the labels, almost all processed foods use this one item.  The ones that claim they don't, have converted to more costly sugar.   Restaurants also use these processed foods, meaning it cost more to eat out.  We all have to eat, this is costing us billions in the cost of food increases.

We don't use that Ethanol fuel here in Alaska, our fuel is produced locally, and we don't have corn up here to put in it.  On a recent trip to the lower 48, my car did not run well on that crap.  There is gas stations that sells real gas, and it was hard to find those places.  But well worth the time to find them.

[ironglow]

Right Sourdough;
  That ethanol crap ruins engines, plus it doesn't get very good mileage.  TRhe ethanol tends to dry and crack gaskets, diaphrams and many rubber of synthetic products  always use some Sta-bil in your lawn mowers, garden tractors, tillers etc.

[Ranch13]

TM7 they are drilling the Baken just as fast as they can. It's said theres a new millionare made in North Dakota everyday. They are building a pipeline out of there this spring to bring the natural gas to the market in the midwest. There have been a couple of refinery's trying to get permitted, but the lawsuits filed by the enviro's just on the permitting process may hold them off for years if not decades.

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Sourdough:
"We don't use that Ethanol fuel here in Alaska, our fuel is produced locally, and we don't have corn up here to put in it.  On a recent trip to the lower 48, my car did not run well on that crap."


I here this from a lot of people. I guess I am very, very lucky. I have a 1958 IH 350 tractor, 97 Nissan PU, a 01 and a 03 Honda Accords, a 76 and 2011Moto Guzzi motorcycles, older Lawn Boy push mower, a JD rider mower, Honda tiller, Skil chain saw and string trimmer and a generator.  I have not had any fuel related problems or noticed any difference in performance or gas milage running 10% ethanol. My tiller and mowers have had fuel sit through the winter and start up fine in spring.
GuzziJohn

[Sourdough]

guzzijohn:  My friend in Florida drives an 06 Dodge Durango.  When I am down there I do all the driving, and the milage on the Dodge has no changed that I have noticed.  But my buddy in Ft Lauderdale drives a chevy 1/2 ton, his mileage went down 9% to 10%.  While visiting my brothers in Tennessee, they live on Old Hickory Lake.  They all have boats, and water skiing is big with them.  They all said the Ethanol was bad for two stroke engines.  And it's a big deal with the boat docks that they have non-ethanol gasoline for the boaters.

About the pipeline.  There already is eight oil pipelines crossing the border.  There is also many natural gas lines crossing the same border.  Not sure what direction the gas lines run, and unable to find the map today that shows their location.  So what is the big deal with one more crossing?  It'ds purely political.

[NWBear]

Bear in mind - all who think there is a magic pill to reduce US gas prices - the prices here are based on WORLD supply and demand.  For gas prices to fall here they need to fall WORLDWIDE.  Otherwise the oil companies will just sell the oil and gas where the prices are higher.  That is the reason that FUEL is our #1 export.  The worldwide price for refined fuel makes it MORE PROFITABLE to sell to other countries rather than increase supply or lower the price domestically.  This is the free market we all love and cherish.  The same with Manufacturing - it is just cheaper to build in 3rd world countries especially China (at least for now).  Forget regulations, if you can pay people $25 a day instead of $25/hour + benefits; regulatory cost becomes a moot point.  Forget U.S. vs the world - Wall Street has.  They are investing world wide and don't really care as long as they make money. This is truely part of the "New World Order" whether we like it or not.   
NWBear

[Sourdough]

NWBear, you are right about the oil selling on the world wide market.  But we are also making the greatest transfer of wealth from the US to the Middle East that has ever been made in the history of the world.  We need to stop that transfer, and at least buy from our neighbors, and produce locally.  The money we spend with Canada eventually gets back to us in trade with Canada.There are many, many, many Snow Birds from Canada.  They spend November till April in Florida, Arizona, Texas, and other southern states.

But the important thing about this pipeline, is that is will put so many people to work in a time when people need jobs.

[blind ear]

The only purpose of the pipeline is to get the oil to ports that can service world markets year round, no freez up. US citizens will still pay gas and oil prices that are based on world market prices. We have an excess of gasoline right now in the US and summer prices for  gas are predicted to be $4.00 per gallon.
 
The country will be oil dependent reguardless of the pipeline,  operateing under free trade agrements, NAFTA GATT etc, we will pay what the world market price demands. The oil doesn't belong to us, it is part of the world market. Where we drill doesn't matter, the oil goes to the highest bidder. It might mean a few jobs but that will be finite in effect.  ear

[Ranch13]

There's already 56  piplelines coming thru Nebraska, one of the things never mentioned by the folks that don't know, North Platte is one of the major refined platform racks in the midwest. The oil and gas out of the Baken will be shipped thru the pipelines already owned by the various companies that produce the oil, when they need more capacity they'll build another line.That's why the Oneok gas line is coming this spring to tie into the major distrubution line at a junction in northern Colorado, there's another one being sited going to the southwest.
 The Keystone would be property of the Canadian oil company that is producing those sands.The plan will take the oil to refineries in Illinois and Oklahoma, with the left overs or higher bidders getting it in Houston or the sea ports.
 Not all oil is the same, some has higher contents of things like sulphur etc, and can't be handled at the same refineries as the lower content so it's either trucked or put into different lines.

[ironglow]

I mentioned this information below several months ago,,,let's try again....Is this what the Keystone Pipe is all about..??
An obviously more ME perpetual war would be rather moot as far as US Citizens are concerned..
from an email from an investor expert....TM7:
 
Check THIS out:

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska 's Prudhoe Bay , and has the potential to

eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates

it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable( 5 billion barrels), at $107 a barrel,

we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5.3 trillion.

"When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor.

They had no idea.." says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

"This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years," reportsThe Pittsburgh Post Gazette.

It's a formation known as the Williston Basin , but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.'

It stretches from Northern Montana, through North Dakota and into Canada ..

For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end.

Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago.

However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves,

and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels. And because this is light, sweet oil,

those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL !!!!!!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 2041 years straight.

And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from 2006 !!!!!!

U.. S. Oil Discovery - Largest Reserve in the World

Stansberry Report Online - 4/20/2006

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world.

It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction.

In three and a half years of high oil prices none has been extracted.

With this motherload of oil why are we still fighting over off-shore drilling?

They reported this stunning news:

We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.

Here are the official estimates:

8 times as much oil as Saudi Arabia

18 times as much oil as Iraq

21 times as much oil as Kuwait

22 times as much oil as Iran

500 times as much oil as Yemen

and it's all right here in the Western United States !!!!!!

HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil! Again, we are letting a small group of people dictate our lives and our economy. WHY?

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says we've got more oil in this very compact area than the entire Middle East, more than 2 TRILLION barrels untapped.. That's more than all the proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today, reports The Denver Post.

Don't think 'OPEC' will drop its price even with this find? Think again!
It's all about the competitive marketplace, it has to.

Think Big Oil/OPEC just might be funding the environmentalists?

Got your attention yet?



By the way, this can be verified. Check it out at the link below, I did. 
   http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
       TM;
   You were doing great with that article..until you inserted the conspiracy based question concerning big oil/OPEC funding.
  Ironically,That Keystone pipeline is proposed to serve that same Bakken field.
  The idea that "big oil" would finance envirowhacko groups, can only be arrived at by very suspicious, convoluted thinking (IMO).  Is it likely BP financed the very gang that caused them to be kicked out of the Gulf drilling..or that Exxon would finance a group which would bar them fron ANWR.
  A more convenient conspiracy would be China financing the greenies so they could get the Canadian oil piped to them..or to have them shut down industries.. as they have...so those industries move to China..

[ironglow]

TM;
   You were doing great with that article..until you inserted the conspiracy based question concerning big oil/OPEC funding.
  Ironically,That Keystone pipeline is proposed to serve that same Bakken field.
  The idea that "big oil" would finance envirowhacko groups, can only be arrived at by very suspicious, convoluted thinking (IMO).  Is it likely BP financed the very gang that caused them to be kicked out of the Gulf drilling..or that Exxon would finance a group which would bar them fron ANWR.
  A more convenient conspiracy would be China financing the greenies so they could get the Canadian oil piped to them..or to have them shut down industries.. as they have...so those industries move to China..

Not my theory.....and in fact has been suggested by many researchers and journalists over the years...I don't really kneel on the alter of Big Oil or OPEC (which is Big Oil) so I wouldn't doubt that they have convoluted methods of keeping prices up skyhigh...that wouldn't include China paying premium prices, too.  As for your China conspiracy theory...sounds like a 'pipe dream'...pardon the pun...
 
.
.TM7

..........................................................
   TM;
  There are researchers and journalists..and then there are OTHER researchers and journalists.  One's perspective depends upon which group of researchers & journalists..tey consult ..and believe...

[SwampThing762]

Yup, the US has enough coal, oil and natural gas reserves to last 250 years, even longer if you include the secondary technologies of nuclear, hydroelectric and geothermal power.  yet, the greenies refuse to allow any new fuel refineries or power plants to be built.    the greenies would rather we all ride bicycles or drive a wind-up electric car that has more problems than a used Toyota.

ST762

[tanglewood]

All my family ( dozens/generations) are residents or own land in the Sand Hills of Nebraska. I spent 10 days with them over the holidays and   Not one of them or their neighbors had any reservations about keystone pipeline. Nearly 100% felt that the pipeline was a must. The antis are not from this area !!!

[ironglow]

  It's the "hate America First"  ...   Communist and Greenie complex.. still trying to destroy America as we know it !

[SwampThing762]

Ironglow, you are very correct.  it's the red greenies that want to kill America, but we shall not let them.