Author Topic: Shot out Mosin... (Read 2622 times)

Buckskin · « **on:** February 01, 2012, 04:28:54 AM »

Well it looks like I may have pulled a bad lottery ticket on my Mosin. I slugged it as Shot1 suggested and I have a bore that measures nearly .313. Bummer. After cleaning it I was a little suspect of the rifling to begin with and the slug confirmed my fears. I haven't shot it yet, but have a hundred rounds of 182gr PRVI's coming in a couple days, so we will see. Primarily bought the ammo for the brass so I could reload for the bugger. Maybe should have bought the spam can of ammo instead, as the accuracy may not be any different.

GH1 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:43:01 AM »

I'de be willing to be you can find some cast GC bullets for a 303 British that will work in your gun, something around .314" or so. You may not be as bad off as you think.
Good luck.
GH1

jlwilliams · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:52:28 AM »

If you aren't into it for too much maybe you should just sell it and get another. You can get out of a bum gun and into one that you inspect the bore beforehand. You will be out a few more dollars than you would be if you'd been lucky the first time, but you'll have what you want. I wouldn't put more money into trying to improve it's performance. If it's shot out then cut your losses and move on.

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2012, 08:27:55 AM »

Buckskin: despair not. You can reload for that baby with .312 jacketed for the 303 Brit/7.7 Japanese/7.65 Argentine and probably get decent accuracy. You can also use cast plain base or cast gaschecked in .313 or .314 diameter and possibly even shoot more accurately.

I believe the PRVI ammo is reloadable - the Com-bloc mil-spec ammo is not reloadable. Good luck and let us know how she shoots.

shot1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:32:39 AM »

I would give the .312 174 gr Hornady RNSP bullets a try with 50 grs AA 4350, CCI 200 primer before dumping the rifle off. If it does not shoot well with these then get rid of it and get you another one. They are cheap so you should not loose money in the deal just time. Not for sure but I think the PRVI ammo has .311 diameter bullets so they may not shoot all that accurate in your rifle. Try the Non-Bubba accuracy work on the rifle also. Shimming the action and a piece of oiled felt around the barrel about 3" back of where it exits the hand guard. You can always remove this stuff and use it on your next rifle if this one is a bum.

Buckskin · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:31:13 AM »

Yeah, I spent all that time cleaning the damn thing I might as well get a little shooting time out of her. Ordered all the fixin's for the Hornady 174's from Midway today and should have the PRVI's tomorrow. As I said I didn't expect much out of the PRVI's anyway, just wanted the brass...

flmason · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:47:29 PM »

Just a thought, is it shot out, or just has a wide bore/tolerances? In the end, a bullet that fits right should shoot OK if it's just a good barrel with wider than usual dimensions, true? Of course that might mean custom molds, or sizing bullets to fit, paper patching, etc. Guess it's always nicer if off the shelf stuff is at least acceptable so you aren't stuck *always* having to handload.

I guess this is one advantage of some standard rifle like in a caliber like 30-06.

S.S. · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:47:09 PM »

Mosin's have bore diameters in the 312 to 314 range on a regular basis.
you will probably be pleasantly surprised when you fire it.

Buckskin · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2012, 12:10:11 PM »

Quote from: S.S. on February 02, 2012, 04:47:09 PM

Mosin's have bore diameters in the 312 to 314 range on a regular basis.
you will probably be pleasantly surprised when you fire it.

Well you are right, I just shot it with the PRVI 182's and was pleasantly suprised. I didn't get a chance to shim it or anything yet, just wanted to see how it shot. Considering the club sights on the bugger and that I shot without any bags or anything I was very pleased with the groupings. I say groupings because I shot 8 shots without the hog sticker on it and 8 with it at 50 yards. The shots without, shot 9 inches high and 3 to the right, but decent group. The shots with bayonette shot 5 inches high but dead center... Now I'm not thrilled with where they hit, but as far as groups - not bad. I will try Shot1's recommendations for shimming and play around a little more with the store bought rounds before my reloading supplies get here.

I must say that is a fun rifle to shoot. Damn good deal for $100.. Although I've put in about $200 in supplies for it already...

Buckskin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2012, 10:19:46 AM »

Well after shimming the action and wrapping the barrel w/ felt I shot this mosin again. I benched this time, so groups tightened. I shot again at 50 with about 1" groups. With bayonette on 4" high and dead center, with it off 7" high and 3 inches right. Both groups were just over an inch and had similar results at 100 yards, probably closer to 1 1/2" groups with the bayonette on 8" high, with the bayonette off - didn't hit the target... Clearly this gun shoots better with the bayonette, which is fine I kind of like the balance when shooting off hand with it on.

Just for fun and because I was shooting so high, I ran the target out to 300yds. This is what blew me away, I shot 8 shots and every single shot was well inside a paper plate and the 4 center shots would have hit a grapefruit! Still 4" high, but pretty dog gone good group with a baseball bat for a front sight. I have bolt guns with variable scopes that fight me at that range.

What I don't understand is why these guns shoot so high, I mean they have a ramp that goes to the moon. So why in the heck can't it get down to 50 yards or even 100?

jlwilliams · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:19:28 PM »

Quote from: Buckskin on February 04, 2012, 10:19:46 AM

What I don't understand is why these guns shoot so high, I mean they have a ramp that goes to the moon. So why in the heck can't it get down to 50 yards or even 100?

Maybe they were hoping to stay far, far away from the enemy

shot1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2012, 03:08:59 AM »

The reason that these rifles shoot high is because with the standard military load they were sighted in with the bayonet attached and sighted with what is called a battle sight. The battle sight is usually 300 yards, arsins Russian, meters. Battle sight means you can hold center mass of a standing man and hit him from point blank to 300 without worrying about sight setting. You can bring your point of impact down by making the front sight taller. Either replace the post with a longer one or some people have used heat shrink tubing placed over the sight post that is longer. I replaced the post by removing the post either drive it out the back side of the sight base ring, some will some won't drive out, or drilling it out. The sight post is very hard metal and the sight base is very soft metal so be careful with drilling because you bit will run out off the hard and get into the soft easy. I use a finishing nail the same diameter as the sight post glued in the base with JB Weld. Make it quite long and then file it down at the range by shooting and filing to bring POI down to where you want it. I usually leave my POI a little low, about 1/2" at 50 yards which will be about 1" at 100. That way you can used pieces of duct or masking tape placed under the back sight elevator to raise and lower your POI in small amounts. Light conditions on a target cause you to shoot to different POI and you have some adjustment like this.

supertodd · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:13:07 AM »

Ya the 1903 springfield was the same way- got to realize militaries were thinking battle would be 500-2000 yards and volley fire is what was being considered. I always find it interesting with carcano and mauser calvery carbines of 17-20" barrels had similar sights as full length rifles.

Buckskin · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:01:54 AM »

That makes sense, during a battle it wouldn't make much difference if you hit your enemy in the throat or the belly. Either way they are out of service..
I noticed one thing that concerns me about this rifle and that is that the brass grows a lot after firing. Honestly, aside from the rim, looking at a fired and a non-fired round side by side they almost look like different calibers.
I can get around this by just bumping the shoulders a little, but I was suprised by how much they grew.

flmason · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2012, 04:53:01 PM »

Quote from: Buckskin on February 04, 2012, 10:19:46 AM

... and wrapping the barrel w/ felt ...

Could I talk you into elaborating on this?

Been thinking about my Mosin and thinking that short of free floating the barrel... or maybe some form of solid bedding... anything I do will cause the point of impact to wander every time I tear it down to clean it and reassemble.

I mean, consider cork bedding? How you going to be sure it's in the same place every time? Same compression, etc?

I guess one could use electrical tape or the like, but then you can't see if it's rusting underneath it.

Beginning to think rifles are a pain vrs. pistols in this respect. Least with my revolvers, never once had to consider action or barrel bedding. Granted, they're basically just short, free floated barrels.

Anyway, would like to keep the military trim, but do some form of non damaging accurizing. Just debating what method will be consistent from one tear down/cleaning/reassembly to the next.

Buckskin · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2012, 02:59:51 AM »

Shimming the action and wrapping the barrel w/ felt was Shot1's suggestion and he has a detailed description of this a few pages down. I can't say for sure if it helped any because the first time I shot the gun I just rested off my elbows on the bench and after I accurized it I used a solid rest... But others have said it helps a lot and I don't think it could hurt...

Wrapping the felt is pretty simple, though. 6" x 1" piece of felt with gun oil on it, wrap it like you would a baseball bat around the barrel starting at 3" from the end of the forarm.

One question I do have for Shot1 is do you overlap the felt like you do a baseball bat?

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:59:40 AM »

The Mosin as designed is meant to have a free floating barrel. The handgurds/stock are meant to protect the barrel from impact damage.

The translated soviet manual states that the stock touching the barrel will affect accuracy. With barrel harmonics being well demonstrated by shooting with or without the bayonet attached (91/30 and M-44 were meant to have the Bayonets deployed).

For instance, if the stock touches the barrel at the 9 o'clock, the bullet impact should be to the opposite, or 3 o'clock. Again, this info is from the translated soviet manual and not IMO.

Yes, the M-N family of rifles was battle sight zeroed at 300 meters. Rear sight was sighted at 100 meters at the 300 meter setting.

With any mil-surp, accuracy can be a hit or miss proposition and the luck of the draw. Alot of these rifles were very well used. Last year I saw a 91/30 that was of course manufactured in soviet russia, had spanish civil war stamps, but was a bringback from afghanistan. Very well used and travelled.

Buckskin · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2012, 10:18:49 AM »

Quote from: Buckskin on February 06, 2012, 06:01:54 AM

I noticed one thing that concerns me about this rifle and that is that the brass grows a lot after firing. Honestly, aside from the rim, looking at a fired and a non-fired round side by side they almost look like different calibers.
I can get around this by just bumping the shoulders a little, but I was suprised by how much they grew.

I'm quoting myself here... But I was in the process of reloading for this Mosin and was measuring with the Hornady Lock and Load headspace gauge to bump the shoulders back a couple thousands and was curious how much this brass grew from the factory loads that I shot so I measured a loaded factory round. And was shocked at the caliper reading, on average this brass grew 0.029" at the shoulders. That seems extremely excessive since most of my rifles move about 0.003-5. Now I've never fire formed brass into other calibers, so maybe this is all hunky-dory. But for it to be the same cailber and move that much seems odd... I'm going to throw this over to the reloading page, but thought I would start here and see if anyone else has seen this in a Mosin or other surplus gun.

flmason · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2012, 05:09:46 PM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on February 08, 2012, 04:59:40 AM

The Mosin as designed is meant to have a free floating barrel. The handgurds/stock are meant to protect the barrel from impact damage.

The translated soviet manual states that the stock touching the barrel will affect accuracy. With barrel harmonics being well demonstrated by shooting with or without the bayonet attached (91/30 and M-44 were meant to have the Bayonets deployed).

For instance, if the stock touches the barrel at the 9 o'clock, the bullet impact should be to the opposite, or 3 o'clock. Again, this info is from the translated soviet manual and not IMO.

Yes, the M-N family of rifles was battle sight zeroed at 300 meters. Rear sight was sighted at 100 meters at the 300 meter setting.

With any mil-surp, accuracy can be a hit or miss proposition and the luck of the draw. Alot of these rifles were very well used. Last year I saw a 91/30 that was of course manufactured in soviet russia, had spanish civil war stamps, but was a bringback from afghanistan. Very well used and travelled.

Mine's in the box right now, brought it home, wiped it down with some oil (on top of the cosmoline, LOL!) and boxed it back up. Moved across the county... so haven't looked at it in a couple of months... but seems to me there's no way to have the top cover on the gun and have a free floating barrel? Especially with two barrel bands? Or am I recalling the details incorrectly?

Was thinking of doing the action shims and some form of bedding like in the russian book, something to dampen up by the front barrel band. Just hoping to find a way that is consistent from one strip/clean/rebuild to the next that won't hide corrosion.

Trying to keep it as original as possible. If I get lucky and it shoots as is, won't touch a thing. But seems unlikely that best accuracy will be as is. Least not if law of averages holds. Seems most folks get some improvement with some shimming and bedding.

For whatever silly reasons I like these old antiques and hate to "bubba" them up, LOL!...

But given an already chopped up one, would gladly put it in a Boyd stock or such, Timney trigger, cut down to M38 length etc. if it was an accurate shooting example. Seems like a decent action and caliber to make a sporter out of.

Would prefer 30-06 because of case capacity and availability, but 7.62x54r certainly isn't a bad cartridge at all. 03 Springfield in mint shape or K98 would make my day. But probably out of my budget. Once you get to those prices, would probably go with a modern sporting rifle or factory new M1 or M1A.

But after all is said and done, really enjoy having the Mosin, despite not having had it out yet. Neat piece of history and engineering. Only one gripe I think holds water. That safety...s-u-x! LOL!

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2012, 01:42:53 AM »

The barrels free float because the forestocks are mated to each other, not to the barrel and the barrel rides freely inside the stocks, or should. I have free floated Mauser barrels inside full military stocks the same way and it works.

As per the Russian manual, if the barrel touches the forestock it will effect point of impact and grouping. Those I have worked with have a great deal of room inside the stock, or so it seems, and if the mounting screws loosen on you, so do the groups. Bedding the action is a great way to stabalize the rifle within its stock. One thing I noticed was that when the bedding compound has been applied to the stock and the action set in the bedding, it is necessary to assure the barrel goes straight down the barrel channel before tightening the action screws. One Mosin I worked on required rebedding because the owner didn't check the placement of the action/barrel in the stock before re-mounting the handguard and he could fire two shots before his groups went south, and when we looked again we saw the barrel was bedded directly against the front of the stock in the barrel channel. OK, now have fun.

shot1 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:33:21 AM »

The reason that your brass grows quit a bit is because the chamber is larger than most rifles. The reason for the larger chamber is to allow the weapon to function in the mud blood and gunk of war. Ever take a look at a round fired in a British 303? From an unfired full length sized case they look like two different rounds.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:03:07 PM »

flmason, the Finns were known to shim actions at both receiver screws to get point of impact and group size where they wanted them. Out of the Finn's I have in my collection I have never seen any shimmed in the barrel channel. But, that doesn't mean it never happened.

The safety can be a pain, try a few different variations in actuating it. You should find that its really not that bad once you get used to it. I like mausers as well but the mosin has a coarser sight for my older vision. BTW, WD-40 helps "melt" the cosmoline when it comes time to clean it up. Have fun!!

Buckskin · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:23:02 PM »

I used break cleaner to get rid of the cosmoline. Worked great, but you really need to oil it up good after because it takes everthing off.

flmason · « **Reply #23 on:** February 09, 2012, 06:53:09 PM »

Quote from: Mikey on February 09, 2012, 01:42:53 AM

The barrels free float because the forestocks are mated to each other, not to the barrel and the barrel rides freely inside the stocks, or should. I have free floated Mauser barrels inside full military stocks the same way and it works.

OK, that makes sense.

The manual I saw floating around, the Russian one lots of folks talk about (had to run it through Google Translate to get any idea what it was saying aside from the pix) looks like it's reccomending taping the front of the barrel near the barrel band. Is that a correct interpretation?

I can see where that could control vibration. Seems in the old classic "The Modern Gunsmith" I read through as a kid, there was a section on putting little devices in the stock that intentionally touched the barrel at places to tune the vibrations?

In any event, lost of folks seem to report improvements with cork bedding or similar. I just wonder about that consistency thing. Clearly free floating is the single most repeatable "bedding" scenario though.

flmason · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2012, 06:56:24 PM »

Quote from: shot1 on February 09, 2012, 02:33:21 AM

The reason that your brass grows quit a bit is because the chamber is larger than most rifles. The reason for the larger chamber is to allow the weapon to function in the mud blood and gunk of war. Ever take a look at a round fired in a British 303? From an unfired full length sized case they look like two different rounds.

Just out of curiousity, any reason why this would cause concern for me, if I'm only planning to neck size anyway? At least initially. All I have at the moment for 7.62x54r is Lee Loader Classic. Planning on a bullet mold, and someday, I ever get life organized again, some sort of press, then full length sizing will become an option. But I'm thinking, why subject the brass to the extra sizing stress if I don't need to?

flmason · « **Reply #25 on:** February 09, 2012, 07:01:10 PM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on February 09, 2012, 12:03:07 PM

flmason, the Finns were known to shim actions at both receiver screws to get point of impact and group size where they wanted them. Out of the Finn's I have in my collection I have never seen any shimmed in the barrel channel. But, that doesn't mean it never happened.

The safety can be a pain, try a few different variations in actuating it. You should find that its really not that bad once you get used to it. I like mausers as well but the mosin has a coarser sight for my older vision. BTW, WD-40 helps "melt" the cosmoline when it comes time to clean it up. Have fun!!

Yes, have some ideas for a removable, non damaging ring attachment just for hunting. Heck, I imagine the right loop/knot of paracord could do the job of getting a better pull on it. If you don't mind bubba (can't say approve, LOL!) you could probably just use some stiff wire like a hangar and fabricate something for temp use.

The big aggravation on this one just seems to be the in/out direction. Really heavy mainspring, but wouldn't lighten it either. Reliability and Safety are neck and neck at #1 for me. Gun that either goes bang when it shouldn't or other way around... ain't a good thing.

I will say this. Mosins do seem to grow on you. That gent Hickock45 over on Youtube has loads of guns to choose from it would seem... and yet... he's like a kid at Christmas with his Mosin, LOL! Guess there's just something the design, price and power level that hits a sweet spot. What's not to like about a 75-150 buck, honest to God battle rifle? LOL! Heck even the rarer or more desirable models like the carbines aren't that pricey. Though granted I have yet to see an M38 or M44 in real life. Like 38's best of all I think, other than a real sniper model.

handirandy · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:35:19 PM »

Buckskin -- Chambers on Mosins generally run very generous. They were manufactured that way so they would chamber a dirty round like would be used in the trenches. If you reload neck size only. Accuracy will increase and brass life will be considerably longer. You can neck size with any die, just back it out and size the case, check it in the chamber. Move the die closer to the shell holder and repeat the process until the case chambers. I usually turn it in another 1/8 turn and lock it down. BUT these rounds will most likely only work in the rifle they were set up for so if you own more than one Mosin you will have to reload separately for each.

shot1 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 03, 2012, 02:23:53 AM »

It has been a while since I have had time to get to this forum. The wrapping of the felt around the barrel is to over lap a little. This gives less bearing surface between the barrel and forearm wood. What this does is center the barrel in the forearm, because the wood can warp and does move around with humidity changes, but still allow the barrel to move a little and not come up hard against the wood to mess up the harmonics. The oil on the felt will keep it from collecting moisture and rusting the barrel.
Like has been said. The growing of the cases is normal and neck sizing will improve accuracy most of the time. I would give the load that I mentioned about a try. You will most likely be glad you did.

Buckskin · « **Reply #28 on:** April 03, 2012, 03:29:38 AM »

I bumped the shoulders .001" and did load up some of your recipe. I may shoot it tomorrow and see what it does. I've kind of put it on the back burner as I had a few other rifles that I've been working up loads on...