Author Topic: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed  (Read 1196 times)

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Offline scootrd

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Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« on: February 01, 2012, 04:49:01 PM »
Contact any Estate tax lawyer and ask them if we the middle class can avoid Gift tax to our children, or be allowed to  go above the life maximum and we will be told no.

But the top 2% don't play by the same rules.

David Cay Johnston is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author. A 13-year veteran of The New York Times, David won the Pulitzer in 2001 for enterprise reporting that uncovered loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code. He plowed through Romneys taxes , this is what he found.

Posted on Reuters today
Romney's Gift from Congress
 David Cay Johnston Jan 31, 2012 11:09 EST
When the Romney campaign disclosed in December that the couple’s five sons had a $100 million trust fund, I suspected that, in setting up the fund, the Romneys used a tax strategy that allows some very rich people to avoid paying gift taxes. But it was impossible to know if this was the case without seeing their tax returns going back years.

So when Mitt Romney released the family’s 2010 tax return last week, I went looking. I found a hint on pages 132 and 134 of the return. It showed that the value of property placed that year into another family trust, the Ann D. Romney Blind Trust, was, for tax purposes, zero. The Ann Romney trust is not the same trust as the one that holds the Romney sons’ $100 million, but I wondered if the Romneys used the same approach in prior years when it came to valuing property placed into the sons’ trust.
Reuters emailed the Romney campaign spokeswoman to ask how much the Romneys paid in gift taxes on assets put into the sons’ trust over the last 17 years. The spokeswoman, citing Brad Malt, the Romney family tax lawyer, answered: none.
The idea that someone could pay zero gift taxes on contributions to a $100 million trust fund may surprise people who have heard arguments that the wealthy are overburdened by gift and estate taxes. But the Romneys’ gift-tax avoidance strategy is perfectly legal.
Under tax rules, wealthy people must pay a gift tax of 35 percent on gifts above a lifetime limit known as the “unified estate tax credit.” That limit was $1.2 million for a married couple in 1995 when the sons’ trust was created and $2 million in 2009, but is now $10 million.
So, if the limit is, at most, $10 million, how did the Romneys create this $100 million fund without paying gift taxes?
The explanation may stem from how the Romneys were able to value the assets put into the trust. If I’m right, it involves a special tax deal that Congress gives to people who manage investment partnerships, as Romney did at Bain Capital from 1984 to 1999.
This deal allows these managers to receive a kind of compensation known as “carried interest.” As the tax law sees it, carried interest does not represent ownership of stock or other securities, only the right to receive future profits. Because there is no ownership, the IRS lets people value their carried interest at zero for gift tax purposes if they meet certain technical rules. We asked the Romney campaign if carried interest was involved several times in emails. The campaign declined to comment about this and other specifics.
VALUING A GIFT AT ZERO
To understand how this works conceptually, imagine your employer gave you a bonus in company stock. You would owe income taxes immediately on the stock as compensation, and it would be taxed at the same rate as a cash bonus. And if you gave the stock to your children, you would owe, on stock above $10 million, a gift tax of 35 percent of the market price on the day you gave it away.
Now imagine that instead of giving you stock outright, your employer gave you only the right to future increases in the value of company shares – which, like carried interest, is just a right to some potential future income. You could give that right to your children and legally tell the IRS that its value was zero provided they hold onto it for several years.
This would be legally true, even if the company’s stock had been steadily rising for years and was virtually a sure bet to continue going up in value. Of course as a matter of economics it would be a very valuable gift to your children.
The scenario of transferring a right to something of value in the future and valuing it at nothing shows up on the Romneys’ 2010 tax return, which reveals two contributions to the Ann D. Romney Blind Trust. Both contributions were valued at zero.
NO COMMENT
The Romney campaign declined to confirm that this is what happened with the sons’ trust. Malt, the family tax lawyer, and spokeswoman Andrea Saul have declined to go further than Malt’s statement that the contributions fell below the unified credit.
The campaign, which set up an email address for journalists with questions about the tax returns, did not offer any comment nor did it respond to specific questions, including whether any of the personal or trust returns had been audited, whether any adjustments had resulted and whether the gifts to the sons had been completed more than three years ago, which would put them beyond any review by the IRS.
There are other perfectly legal techniques that would also allow many millions of dollars to be passed on while avoiding gift taxes. The Romneys could attain the same result by putting into the trust any asset whose value was expected to rapidly increase. They could also use a trust that creates an annuity for themselves for a few years provided the trust assets grew much faster than the minimum interest rate payout set by the IRS each month. In each of these cases the parents would pay any income taxes and that is just what the Romneys’ 2010 and preliminary 2011 tax returns show. They report the trust income as their own and pay the taxes on the income the trust earned from its rapidly appreciating assets — but no gift taxes.
How much income will flow from these gifts is known only to the Romney family and to Malt, who works at the Ropes & Gray law firm in Boston. Mitt and Ann Romney appear to have complied with the law. What’s at fault is the law. Congress treats ordinary taxpayers one way and managers of private equity and hedge funds like Mitt Romney another. It’s also a fiction that there is a lifetime limit on tax-free gifts of $10 million when Congress lets unlimited sums pass untaxed this way.
Will this change? It’s hard to say, given the gridlock in Washington. But President Barack Obama’s State of the Union message could signal a new direction. In a speech that mentioned taxes 34 times, he proposed sweeping changes in the tax code, a message that could resonate in the 2012 campaign and in Congress in 2013.

Wow with help like this , you would think he wouldn't need to shelter even more monies for tax avoidance purposes in overseas banks. But of course , that is what they do, because enough is just surely never enough.

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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 06:18:50 PM »
Thanks for pissing me off.
 
Jim
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 09:32:08 PM »
Don't blame him for doing what the tax laws allow.  Blame our previous governments that put these laws in affect.  Everyone is going to do what is advantageous to them.  No one is going to pay more taxes than they have to, I don't care who it is.  Do any of you know any one that has just up and paid more taxes than they were due to pay?  I don't pay anymore than I have to, and I bet you don't dither.  In fact a lot of the people I know don't pay any taxes.  For many years I did not pay any taxes, and when I was married to my first wife and had a child, we got money back from the government at tax time most years.  My Mom and Dad have never paid any taxes, in fact they get back more than they have paid in.  It's always been like that for them, and many more people I know.
 
 Today, my wife and I pay taxes.  Our home is paid for, the kid is grown, and the wife has a good paying job.  We have no deductions. 
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Offline bobg

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 10:35:17 PM »
 Sourdough, I agree with what you said 100%. Who in there right mind would pay more taxes than they have to. If there is a way to save on taxes go for it.

Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 11:33:26 PM »
I don't like Romney at all.  That being said he's not doing anything wrong w/ his taxes.  I'm married w/ two kids and I will get way more back in taxes than I paid in.  But it's the way the current tax law is structured.  Is it unethical?  Maybe, but I look at it in the fact that the money i'm getting back from the federal government wont begin to touch what they will steal from me in social security by the time I'm retired and cannot draw from a failed system.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 03:35:14 AM »
Very interesting article on tax mechanics...not surpising, though, and tip of the iceberg.   ;D We need to lower taxes on all wealthy folks retroactively, even send them $5 million credits each so they can create jobs and stimulate the economy... ::) ::) ;) ;)  Poor people need to pay more taxes and the middle class, too as they don't do anything or create jobs... ::) ;) ::) ..... ::)
.
Now imagine for a minute that the next president of the USA might be a Corporate Liquidation Specialist__whats that tell you...?
.
 
.....TM7
So far Obama has had the same policy.  He has been taking money from us and handing it to his MILLIONAIRE and BILLIONAIRE friends.  Solendra was supose to tbe the way of the new green jobs, and they were destroying their stock of taxpayer owned glass tubes.  Rather than sell them.  We are talking truck loads of them.  Not a few o nthe shelf.
Clearly giving a Few Billion to his donor and friends has not created any long term jobs and I want ot know what those owners took as pay for them selves.  I think if you gave me half a BILLION $ I could create a few jobs and pocket a lot of that if I were a shady person and then close the company once I had what I wanted.
Prooving that forcing the economy will not create anything.  Allow people to use their money in ways they think will make them more and the economy will flurish.  Clearly you would not want to invest your savings in something that would not generate some growth. 

Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 03:42:23 AM »
Not blaming Romney for what he is paying for taxes.  But when this jerk goes out and and whines about lower income people not paying income tax... >:(
 
JIM
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 06:57:49 AM »
I'm not blaming anyone who can take advantage of the tax code - However True Tax reform is what is needed.
Their should not be two separrate and unequal tax codes in this country. Those 99% need to comply with and those
the 1 or 2% can take advantage off.

Tax Reform needs to become Top priority. All play by same rules. Get rid of the Loop holes.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 03:24:55 PM »
Not blaming Romney for what he is paying for taxes.  But when this jerk goes out and and whines about lower income people not paying income tax... >:(
 
JIM
Three Points.
1) an owner of a company Stock holder actually pay 47% tax on the profits of the business.
35% when the company makes it and another 15% when it is handed to them.  Grab a pad and take 100 X.65 and take that 65 and multiply by .85 - what is left of the 100 you earned.
2) this does not include the the multiple taxes that that same company pays before profits like payroll.  Remember the payroll taxes that show up on your paycheck are only 1/3 of what the company pays.  So that same company not only pays income taxes but a whole meriad of other taxes, from use taxes to property taxes.
3) when the country was started you needed to be a land owner to vote.  Meaning you had skin in the game.  People that do not pay taxes should not be allowed to vote money out of my or your wallet. 
 

Offline scootrd

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 05:23:52 PM »
Not blaming Romney for what he is paying for taxes.  But when this jerk goes out and and whines about lower income people not paying income tax... >:(
 
JIM
Three Points.
1) an owner of a company Stock holder actually pay 47% tax on the profits of the business.
35% when the company makes it and another 15% when it is handed to them.  Grab a pad and take 100 X.65 and take that 65 and multiply by .85 - what is left of the 100 you earned.
2) this does not include the the multiple taxes that that same company pays before profits like payroll.  Remember the payroll taxes that show up on your paycheck are only 1/3 of what the company pays.  So that same company not only pays income taxes but a whole meriad of other taxes, from use taxes to property taxes.
3) when the country was started you needed to be a land owner to vote.  Meaning you had skin in the game.  People that do not pay taxes should not be allowed to vote money out of my or your wallet. 
 

Private-equity firms specifically like Bain Capital buy, fix, and sell companies whose profit comes after restructuring. The money that private-equity firms get from selling winners reflect the market's expectation that the newly buffed companies will perform well in the future. That's one reason why "the tax burden on private-equity partners , such as Romney is a lot closer to 15 percent than to the 47 percent figure you continue to cite.

"If an oil company discovers a huge new oil field, its value will increase substantially well before any additional oil is extracted from the ground and sold at a profit," If you sell that oil company's stock right after it shoots up, much of your capital gain isn't double taxed because it represents the hope for future income. - Tax Policy Centers  - Eric Toder

additionally  company stockholder Dividends are taxed a variety of ways.

Qualified dividends that meet Internal Revenue Service guidelines to be taxed at a "special rate"  - ie your capital gains tax rate.

"When you have a 15 percent rate on capital gains and 35 percent rate on earned income for the wealthy, you create huge incentives for tax sheltering," Ie: Romenys caymen , Ireland, switzerland accounts.

Whats needed is true tax reform.
 
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 06:03:46 PM »
Not blaming Romney for what he is paying for taxes.  But when this jerk goes out and and whines about lower income people not paying income tax... >:(
 
JIM
Three Points.
1) an owner of a company Stock holder actually pay 47% tax on the profits of the business.
35% when the company makes it and another 15% when it is handed to them.  Grab a pad and take 100 X.65 and take that 65 and multiply by .85 - what is left of the 100 you earned.
2) this does not include the the multiple taxes that that same company pays before profits like payroll.  Remember the payroll taxes that show up on your paycheck are only 1/3 of what the company pays.  So that same company not only pays income taxes but a whole meriad of other taxes, from use taxes to property taxes.
3) when the country was started you needed to be a land owner to vote.  Meaning you had skin in the game.  People that do not pay taxes should not be allowed to vote money out of my or your wallet. 
 

Private-equity firms specifically like Bain Capital buy, fix, and sell companies whose profit comes after restructuring. The money that private-equity firms get from selling winners reflect the market's expectation that the newly buffed companies will perform well in the future. That's one reason why "the tax burden on private-equity partners , such as Romney is a lot closer to 15 percent than to the 47 percent figure you continue to cite.

"If an oil company discovers a huge new oil field, its value will increase substantially well before any additional oil is extracted from the ground and sold at a profit," If you sell that oil company's stock right after it shoots up, much of your capital gain isn't double taxed because it represents the hope for future income. - Tax Policy Centers  - Eric Toder

additionally  company stockholder Dividends are taxed a variety of ways.

Qualified dividends that meet Internal Revenue Service guidelines to be taxed at a "special rate"  - ie your capital gains tax rate.

"When you have a 15 percent rate on capital gains and 35 percent rate on earned income for the wealthy, you create huge incentives for tax sheltering," Ie: Romenys caymen , Ireland, switzerland accounts.

Whats needed is true tax reform.
I agree that we need tax reform.  We need to lower taxes across the board!  We need to rewarx those that work hard, save their $ and invested it in capital for other companies to grow!  That companies grow and create jobs and products is what we need.
If you think punnishing the wealthy and raising taxes on them is only going to drive more $ off shore in search of better returns.
And while I do not like that Bain Capital took companies and broke them up, it is a nessary part of our economy.  Companies will fail, those assest will be divided back out into the market for other stronger companies or start up companies to aquire assests to grow.  Companies like Bain simply put, put to sleep dying companies rather than allowing them to last and dye a slow painful death.
There are two different levels of Capital gains.  1 is the stock growing in worth based on strenghts of the company or assests, the other is based on the profits of the company and the dividends it pays out.  And the dividend it pays out in relation to the value of the stock.  A 100 stock that pay 15 a share will generate a higher stock price.  Again based on the strength of the company.
Now also remember that all the capital is post tax capital.  People that are investing are doing so with $ that taxes have been paid on. (except the 401K and IRA $) But that is an argument for another day.
The President just announced that he wants the banks to create a single sheet for your loans in plain English why do we not require the same thing from the IRS?
The crony social engineering is what is to blame.  Taxes should not be more then 5 to 7% and anytime the nation over spends three things should happen automaticly.  1) Congress and their staffs take a 50% pay cut.  The heads of all agencies take a 35% paycut, and all all forign aid is stopped.  All Campaing functions are forbiden.
2) Income Taxes are cut double the percentage of the over spending acrtoss the board.
3) The President and his staff take a 75% pay cut and all Campaign functions are forbiden.
 

Offline magooch

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 03:37:33 AM »
The whole idea that the government is entitled to more money from the top one percent is wrong thinking.  That one percent already pays way out of proportion to what the bottom 47 percent pays (which is nothing).  The answer is not for the government to get more; the answer is for the government to spend a whole lot less.  However I do believe there should be a minimal citizen's tax on every adult (especially on the bottom 47 percent)--even if it is only a few bucks.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 10:05:44 AM »
TM7
Investor or owner it is the same thing.
If you ar the sole share holder  of a small company or
If you buy 1 share of Walmart stock you own part of the company.
The profits generated by your company are double taxed.  Once as the company income and once as your income.
Raising the rate will drive $ off shore to places where they can make more and drive our stock prices down.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 03:02:01 PM »
TM7,
Maybe I can explain international finance this way.
I just opened a business in Lake Tahoe CA and want to hire you for 100,000 a year.
You will have to move to Lake Tahoe.  Lake Tahoe is right on the boarder of two states.  CA and NV.  You walk down the street and go from CA to NV  and back all the time.
The houses on either side of the lake are about the same and cost about the same.
Now if you move to NV you have no state income tax, the property taxes are lower and the vehicle registration fees are lower you have the right to Carry a CCW.
In CA you will pay about 15% more when you look at the State income tax, and the registration and other state taxes, not associated with local shopping.
What state do you move to?
You would move to NV you get to keep more of your $.
Well the same goes with tax rates for investments.  You will invest where you can get the largest return.  If you raise the tax rates even higher people will move from CA to the NV side and the value of the houses on the CA side will fall and the houses o nthe NV side will increase.
The same will happen with stock prices.  If you raise the taxes on returns investors will sell the US stocks and buy other country stocks.  Lowering the taxes will increase the amount of invested $.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 03:23:36 PM »
  Libs just cannot grasp how lower taxes, especially on producers will expand our economy and bring in much more to the govt than an exploitive tax rate does.
 
 So alib thinks Romney deals with 2 different tyax rates...take a look at B hussein..he wants all kinds of different taxes..  If you earn 25K it's one rate, if you earn 100K it's another rate, if you earn 250K it's still another rate..earn any  more and you pay through the nose ! 
    On the other hand, if you produce nothing but more welfare babies, you will be given thousands..along with free food, rent, phone, gas for your Caddie and pay NO taxes..
 
   "Liberal Logic" at it's best..
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 02:32:50 AM »
So it's only for the rich huh?

We set up a trust for our oldest son, to make sure he is provided for in the event of our deaths. And while we are not millionairs by any stretch of the imagination.....we paid no taxes on it...and neither will he.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 02:52:51 AM »
  Just like the "estate taxes" the Liberals keep foisting upon us...
 
   You work hard all your life..make a passable wage..which you already are paying too much taxes on.  So you do without some vacations, new cars etc and put some away for your kids.  Then you die, and the government comes along and wants to rob your kids of half of it !
   I don't care if you make $300 per week or $300,000 per week, you have already paid taxes on it and if the government just takes a hefty part of your life savings, I view that as robbery.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 05:01:50 AM »
So it's only for the rich huh?

We set up a trust for our oldest son, to make sure he is provided for in the event of our deaths. And while we are not millionairs by any stretch of the imagination.....we paid no taxes on it...and neither will he.
Didn't you use POST tax Money?
Is the trust legal?
And life insurance policies are not taxable for the most part.

Offline buffermop

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2012, 05:03:49 AM »
A rare commodity is a honest politician. The deserving ones never get elected. Under that "big money" influence.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 05:11:16 AM »
TM7
Investor or owner it is the same thing.
If you ar the sole share holder  of a small company or
If you buy 1 share of Walmart stock you own part of the company.
The profits generated by your company are double taxed.  Once as the company income and once as your income.
Raising the rate will drive $ off shore to places where they can make more and drive our stock prices down.
.
We know share owners are also considered as owners per say....we know that. [That's why when companys like BP crap up the enviornmnet major share holders should also be held directly responsible... ;) , but's that a discussion for another day]
You are mistaken in one of your points as I see it...i.e. double taxation....The corp/business is taxed on net profits after deductions,,,and your labor income or wages are company deductions, i.e. not taxed. BUT get taxed as the individual wage earner's income....that's only natural.  Virtually all business owner's or mangement pay themselves a wage__use to be called 'labor income' and this is a company deduction as an expense.  If lucky they can also receive additonal income as options and stock, etc. that are taxed at cap gains 15% when actually received, or taken out of deferred status..
I think you have been listening to Sean Hannity too much.... ;) ;D ;)
 
...TM7
Unfortunatly I am at work most of the time when he is on.
So if I Own a company, not a corperation, I pay personal income tax of 33%.  If I become a corperation I not only pay personal income tax on the money the coperation makes but any money I take, that sounds like double taxes to me.
Now, if we lowered the corperate rate to 20% and kept the personal rate at 15%, I would still say it is double taxed but not unfairly.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2012, 10:06:44 AM »
So it's only for the rich huh?

We set up a trust for our oldest son, to make sure he is provided for in the event of our deaths. And while we are not millionairs by any stretch of the imagination.....we paid no taxes on it...and neither will he.
Didn't you use POST tax Money?
Is the trust legal?
And life insurance policies are not taxable for the most part.

We used a combination of things, including properties and stocks.
Is anything legal before it's been tested in court? (yes  it is but you have to buy the best judge you can afford)
Why the life insurance comment? This has nothing to do with insurance.

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2012, 11:09:41 AM »
No offense folks, but some of you apparently don't do your own taxes. ROMNEY'S net federal tax rate after deductions was higher than 97% of all returns, according to the IRS' own data. 33% is only true if you make no charitible donations, have no mortgage, no work deductions, and aren't able to even claim yourself as a dependent (like a college student). TM7 will freak about this, but its true.

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Offline andy1300

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2012, 11:41:20 AM »
With eight years of Bush giving the rich more tax breaks and you don,t see that it didn't do any good but made it worst !  , you guys are brain washed or just don,t use your brains at all.
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Offline andy1300

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2012, 11:53:56 AM »
Its not o'k for the rich to be paying at 15% income tax and us the ones that really work hard for a living be paying
at 35 % or more if you make less, when you do need that money for food.
Thats like saying if you purchase this car at  $20,000 your taxes will be at 8 %  but if you purchase this car
that is $50,000 your taxes will only be at 3%.
Just because your rich your tax % shouldn,t drop at all !
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2012, 11:59:44 AM »
With eight years of Bush giving the rich more tax breaks and you don,t see that it didn't do any good but made it worst !  , you guys are brain washed or just don,t use your brains at all.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2012, 12:05:17 PM »
So it's only for the rich huh?

We set up a trust for our oldest son, to make sure he is provided for in the event of our deaths. And while we are not millionairs by any stretch of the imagination.....we paid no taxes on it...and neither will he.
Didn't you use POST tax Money?
Is the trust legal?
And life insurance policies are not taxable for the most part.

We used a combination of things, including properties and stocks.
Is anything legal before it's been tested in court? (yes  it is but you have to buy the best judge you can afford)
Why the life insurance comment? This has nothing to do with insurance.
One of my Grandparents anmed me the beneficiary of a policy and it was all tax free,
In my friends setting up a trust for their kids a large portion, for now is insurance and the trust deals with distribution of those monies to the two minor kids.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2012, 12:24:06 PM »
Its not o'k for the rich to be paying at 15% income tax and us the ones that really work hard for a living be paying
at 35 % or more if you make less, when you do need that money for food.
Thats like saying if you purchase this car at  $20,000 your taxes will be at 8 %  but if you purchase this car
that is $50,000 your taxes will only be at 3%.
Just because your rich your tax % shouldn,t drop at all !
But that is exactly what Congres has said.  If you do this you get a tax break.  If you buy your house you get a tax break, if you rent you get nothing. 
What will never sink into your head is that this invested Money is POST tax money. 
What you also fail to graps is idea the investors will invest where they can maximize their return.
If that is simply putting it in a CD they will, if it is investing in the Stock Market they will, if it is investing in Canada, Japan, or any other market.
So you worked a bunch of over time and you are going to put that money in your bank and the bank across the street has an interest rate of 5% more and will give you a $50 gas card for opening an account.  Do you Deposit your hard earned $ in your bank or do you walk across the street and open a new account?  You open the new account.  Your money will grow faster.  Now you run the risk of the bank failing and loosing your $ and that is what you need to weigh.  Risk Vs Reward but if the bank is sound and safe you would put your $ there.  Same as if your companies' competitor across town offered you 50% more to work for them.  You will put your assets (time in this case) where you can maximize the return.
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2012, 04:57:32 AM »
No offense folks, but some of you apparently don't do your own taxes. ROMNEY'S net federal tax rate after deductions was higher than 97% of all returns, according to the IRS' own data. 33% is only true if you make no charitible donations, have no mortgage, no work deductions, and aren't able to even claim yourself as a dependent (like a college student). TM7 will freak about this, but its true.

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Link please,,,,I thought it was announced on TeeVee that Romney's net effective tax rate was 13%.....TM7
---
 
mcwood duck...not all investment is post tax,,,much if not most is pre-tax, or deductible overhead....if you invested post-tax, you are paying tax on earnings,,,the principle was already taxed!
 
..TM7
My point exactly the Principal in most cases was Post tax $.    So why is it them taxed again and again?
While your 401K contributions are Pre tax most investing is done with post tax $
Your insurance policies (life or annuity) are all post tax dollars, as well as reinvesting dividends.
 

Offline scootrd

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2012, 05:53:28 AM »
TM ,
I have determined you can post and post and post..
There are some who will defend this unequal tax system to the last breath.
They are either part of the 1% crowd and hence defenders of these tax codes,
 or have chosen to  play the proverbial ostriches.

The FACT'S are we have two Unequal and Separate tax systems in America ..

The 1 or 2% have their rules that over the years the lobbyist have managed to re-sneek in through congress once Reagan purged them from our tax code , and those folks will defend them aggressively till the bitter end.

Romenys tax plan for America only helps his cronies more and hurts the middle class and poor even more , and those that choose not to see,  read , and educate themselves deserve to get who they vote for, and live with the perpetuating consequences of their descison.

Meet the new Boss , Same as the old Boss. 

And to think we haven't even discussed the unequal gift tax rules  the 1% get to follow vs the Gift tax rules the rest of Americans are forced to follow en mass.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Two Separate and unequal Tax systems - Romney's Taxes reviewed
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2012, 07:53:27 AM »
TM
you mis-interpreted my post, it was a general statement not directed at you or mcwoodduck personally as you were discussing details. I was agreeing with you
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant