Author Topic: What to think of competition shooters (Read 1699 times)

jpuke · « **on:** February 02, 2012, 01:23:50 AM »

Does anyone else ever wonder what type of loads these guys that show up in internet videos use? I've been looking at Rob Leatham's site a bit and know I'll never approach that level of skill but I ask the question because I've never been able to control a .45 anywhere near as easily as these guys do in the videos I've seen. I keep wondering if they're using 1911's in some cartridge other than .45 or if they're using low powered loads.

I've shot matches at our local club many times, there's no major or minor classes so I just show up with my "regular" 45 ACP loads (230 grain lead, 830 fps) and find that I really can't compete with guys shooting 9mm or other cartridges when it comes to speed. I guess I'm wondering what it'd look like if these guys were shooting full power 45 ACP loads and if they'd be just as fast.

bulletstuffer · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2012, 02:57:18 AM »

Some of those guys can really shoot! It would be like giving tiger woods a cheap set of clubs and old balls. He would still out shoot 99% of us. I think the same holds true in the shooting world IMO.

It's all about technique, practice and talent

Good luck,

Bulletstuffer

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:35:51 AM »

I have seen a few competition shooters at my ranges and I sort of doubt they use full house 45 acp loads. I encountered one fella who was using a 1911A1, quite well customized, who was shooting high speed very lightweight bullets with a reduced power recoil spring. He said the pistol would perform reliably during his competitions (IPSC??) but that he used the light loads so he could control the pistol.

I think it is the 45 that some shooters do this with. I have seen other fellas using Glocks and other pistols in lighter calibers who don't seem to have that same problem but to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't want to arm wrestle with any of them - their forearms all look like they are the offspring of Popeye.

Seriously guys have you ever seen some of these folks?? Many I know to be competition shooters, and not necessarily bullseye shooters, are also some of our local Police officers, County Sheriffs Deputies or State Troopers, and along with their continual and on-going handgun practice they are involved in fitness training or weight training or other forms of activities that allow them to strengthen their arms, shoulders and wrists to enable greater control of their pisotls during competition. They practice seriously for their competition.

To try and answer your question, I believe those shooting the 45 use lighter loads and lighter recoil spring set-ups while those using lighter calibers may not have to deal with that issue. I could be wrong though..

bulletstuffer · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:48:45 AM »

Mikey,

You are right about the lighter loads for a lot of shooters in those competition events. There is a minimum power factor in the shooting competitions and I believe many loaders try to stay right above the minimum to make the weapon more controllable.

I just shot my first IDPA event and am no expert by any means.

Good shooting,

Bulletstuffer

jpuke · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2012, 06:05:50 AM »

I am a skinny guy (6' tall, 160 lbs) so I've thought about my lack of strength being an issue as well. It sure is neat though to see those guys shoot.

anachronism · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:50:35 PM »

The power factor in the shooting games I've entered were the equivalent of normal factory loads. There are major & minor power factors, and everybodys subject to testing. All except for bowling pins. Everythings on the heavy side there. There is a lot of juggling done to make certain you just make the power factor, but don't exceed it by any great margin. It's kind of like car racing in that respect, but affordable.

tacklebury · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:37:16 PM »

Most I've known use just enough to cycle their slide in an auto. I know that my target load was worked up to just that way. Went up .1 gr until I got perfect cycling with no misfires, then went .1 gr incremental ladders up 1 full grain to find a sweeter spot. Settled on the minimum that cycled as it produced consistently best groups. I can keep under 2" at 30 yards if I'm doing what I should be and breathing right. Probably different for tactical type competition, but for targets you don't want a lotta motion.

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:10:14 PM »

A good number of yeaers ago I wanted to get into these games--it looks fun & the ones I visited had some nice folks.
The ones at nigt were at indoor places and the ones at outdoor ranges were on the weekend.Being retired I don't do weekend anything and indoors just didn't melt my butter.
I have tried--in vain-- to get a shoot going at my range but the fellers just don't seem to want to put forth the effort.
I need to have a scheduled shooting time or I seem to let my shooting wain. I need to get myownself back on the horse.
I shot on Thursdays for a long time but then a bad stretch of weather got me out of the routine.
Blessings

smokehouserex · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:30:31 PM »

I think all of the champion shooters are like any other pro athelete, they posess good hand/eye coordination as well as good reflexes. They start off ahead of most of us and progress faster and are usually very comitted to their training but without proper training they may well not be champions.
I think Freddie Roach said it pretty well when talking about Manny Pacquaio, he said Packman would have been great even with another trainer.
Like someone else said, Woods would probably beat any of us with a sorry set of clubs. Some have got it and some......
HM

bulletstuffer · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:14:49 AM »

As I mentioned before I have only shot one IDPA event and was an observer the week before. It was a blast and the shooters ranged from machine gun fast to flintlock slow

All were very nice and I asked some questions of the better shooters and each took the time with me and gave me some pointers.

Don't know why I haven't started shooting these types of events before

[size=78%]. [/size]Sounds like you will get a lot more shooting with USPSA than with IDPA. I am really looking forward to this years shooting events. I would definitely recommend trying this

Check out the Utube videos and it will give you an idea on what goes on. It is much more fun in person

Good luck,

Bulletstuffer

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2012, 05:24:20 AM »

Anyone shooting in an IPSC/USPSA match is shooting either major or minor. Major requires a minimum power factor of 165, minor is 125. Scoring is different between the two as well. An "A" zone hit scores higher in major than minor. So serious competitors will shoot major in these events. The formula for calculating power factor is: W X V/1000= PF
W (Bullet weight in grains) V (Velocity in FPS) / 1000= PF (Power Factor)
.45acp 200gr @ 850fps /1000= 170 PF
.45acp 230gr @ 740fps /1000= 170PF
These are loaded to a 170pf to make sure they make the 165 regardless of weather/loading inconsistencies, or Murphy. At a sanctioned match there is a chronograph stage where all competitor's loads are checked to insure they make power. The same is true for sanctioned IDPA matches as well. I used the .45 as an example as the original post referred to it. Most major competitors shoot .38 Super Comp, 9/23, or .40 S&W.
The guys shooting major, and finishing near the top, are just that good.
Savage

williamlayton · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2012, 11:22:34 PM »

Savage
Is .40 taking over in your area?
Blessings

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2012, 12:55:05 AM »

Like savage said in about any competion other then ppc a power level must be maintained. I would have to guess that guys like leathman dont load there own ammo. there sponsored by ammo companys and gun companys and use there ammo for the most part. I doubt many of them have time to load anymore. they spend there extra time practiceing shooting not loading. now that said im sure there are reduced level factory ammo available somewhere. I wouldnt be able to swear to it as i havent bought a box of factory handgun ammo in 20 years.

McDerry · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2012, 03:06:39 AM »

My 1911 .460 Rowland Conversion started life as a second hand race gun. 200 gr bullets moving at 675 fps give or take would run out of the gun with no hickups. 230 hard ball had authority with the light weight spring. So didn't squibs. I use to get shell ejection on squibs with it, eventually it caught up to the gun. Controlability, oh yah it was like shooting a 38 special.

Savage · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2012, 08:44:35 AM »

Winchester top five pistol cartridges

A Winchester Ammunition rep disclosed to Joe @ ArmsTalk the top five pistol cartridges that they produce ...

9mm- Winchester also has a military contract
.40 S&W- Number one LEO round
.38 Special- I found this surprising
.45ACP
.380ACP- our topic finally shows up!
.357 Sig

Can't vouch for the accuracy of this information, but sounds about right to me.

Savage

Bill, I see about as many .40s as 9s in my area. Fewer .45s.

anachronism · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2012, 06:34:27 PM »

The 40 S&W is mostly popular because you can change the loads, and the springs and shoot either minor or major. The guys shooting major enjoy having less recoil than they had with the 45s.

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2012, 10:00:34 PM »

I know that competition builds confidence--makes you better.
Those that shoot competition are at an advantage if the rubber ever meets the road.
I play competetive golf--two or three times a week--even the little games we play gives you confidence and when the heat is applied you have some experience to fall back on.
Blessings

Dixiejack · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2012, 02:30:13 PM »

Unless I overlooked a post talking about custom ammo, I would think that someone who puts big bucks in a competition handgun and other equipment is not going to Wally World to buy off the shelf whatever's on sale ammo. I sure they are rollin' their own like any other competition gun sport. I even have a .22 RF gauge for sorting out my .22 LR into groups to give me the tightest groups.

GLShooter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »

A bit old but I've shot IPSC since 1980. Shot all but three years shooting a Major 45 ACP or equivalent pistol. The big guys shoot Major for the points and you can get PDQ with them. Never thought much about it as I started with Hardball and switched over to 200 grain SWCL's because of the cost.

I shot a 9 MM HP for a couple years and went back to a Para 45. I now shoot a full race Para 9X21.

I also shot revolvers up to the national level in the 80's and won six USPSA National revolver titles shooting 25-2 45's and a 586 with Major 38 Special loads (175,00 PF). I was pretty quick then and I'm pretty quick now.

No Jerry Miculek but I was there first.

Greg

Dixiejack · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2012, 02:40:59 PM »

Good shooting, Greg. You have accomplished something to be proud of.

GLShooter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2012, 05:54:27 AM »

Quote from: Dixiejack on May 05, 2012, 02:40:59 PM

Good shooting, Greg. You have accomplished something to be proud of.

Thanks. As I get older it's nice to look back on. I still shoot a revolver in the AZ. Police and Fire Games and have a ball doing it. Young guys don't know how fast you can put 12-18 rounds down range with one. LOL

Greg

bulletstuffer · « **Reply #21 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:04:43 PM »

I've just shot my 3rd USPSA match and it is much more fun than IDPA IMO

You get to sling a lot more lead down range and get to pick the order of the targets you shoot. My buddy said he shot over 3000 rounds last year shooting once a week in USPSA events

I would recommend these events to anyone that likes to shoot handguns especially the semi autos. There are a few 6 gun double action shooters like GLShooter but mostly semi auto 9mm, 40,45 and a few 38 super shooters.

Each event that I have gone to have have had an awesome group of people

Hand guns are the ultimate equalizer...I had my but handed to me by a girl

I love seeing the woman in these sports and they do put the hurts to the guys. So if you have a big ego I hope you can hide it because those girls sure can shoot!!!

Good luck,

Bulletstuffer [size=78%] [/size]

Steven Cline · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2012, 05:10:58 PM »

As a "competition shooter" here are my observations:

-I shoot two practices a week of about 200 rounds each
-I shoot a match about every weekend
-My weekly round count is about 550, my monthly is about 2k
-I dry fire another two times a week practicing my draw, reloads, and sight pictures

The difference, gentle OP, between the Rob Leatham's of the world and you isn't the equipment or ammunition... it's the hours of practice, the hundreds of thousands of rounds of practice they did, and do, and you don't.

If I shot the same course of fire with my reloaded match ammo and then with factory ammo there might be a second difference if the course of fire was 25 shots. That's right- the ammo might make .04 seconds difference per shot.

If you truly believe differently, I suggest you visit a local USPSA match and opine to a talented Single Stacker. If it were me... I'd trade you gun and ammo. Then I'd whoop your @$$ with your own gun and ammunition while you shot mine.

Your post, sir, is insulting to the tremendous hours and tons of ammo the best shooters of the world put in and shoot to become that talented.

That's what I think of competition shooters.

Keith L · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2012, 08:19:29 PM »

The OP asked a good question. You did fairly well with an answer that turned into an invitation for a flame war. On your first day here.
If you can stay civil you will be warmly welcomed. Sounds like you have some interesting experience. But if you want to flame then you will not be allowed around the campfire. Rules of the board. If you wish to stay read them before you post again. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,54070.0.html

jpuke · « **Reply #24 on:** May 14, 2012, 06:48:42 AM »

Steven Cline,
I applaud you for your skill and ability to practice so much. I end up shooting around 100-200 rounds a month so I'm jealous that you can get out and shoot so much. Work, family, and church obligations keep me pretty busy.

My original question was innocent enough, no offense intended to anyone. I was simply wondering if what I see on TV and the internet is as impressive as I think it is.

I regularly get my rear end handed to me in matches and I gladly go back for more when I can. I find the guys that shoot near the top are often the nicest and most helpful, though there are exceptions.

Jeremy

ppine · « **Reply #25 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:22:48 AM »

Some people seem to be driven to compete. I find competitive sports in my 60s to be a good way to ruin a relaxing hobby that I really like. Golf might be a good example. Go out a play the front nine with your friends for fun, then play the back nine for 5 bucks. Everything changes and it is not for the better.

People that show and compete with horses are the only buttheads in the horse world.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** May 14, 2012, 08:00:34 AM »

I didn't read all but it depends on the game. Some games require the ammo meet a power factor , some don't others require hard hitting loads. If at a bowling pin match I would expect hard hitting loads that grip the pin . IDPD most shoot white box loads where I shoot in 9mm . There are some reloades but if you shoot reloads no albi is allowed . The super shoots and cup shoots have power factor miniums . I ROed a match where Todd Jarret shot . His ammo appeared factory and full power . His shooting was unbelieveable , a pleasure to watch. A friend who came with him and competes (can't remember his name ) beat him . His shooting was as impressive as Todd's. I had shot at local ranges with Todd years before he became a top shooter and we tal;ked after the match . He made a statement that showed he was a true sportsman. He said you and some of these other guys could shoot with the top shooters if ya'll could afford the time and cost to shoot 50,000 rounds a year . He noted he had ammo loaded for him and guns built for him by the co's he shot for and repsented. So in reality there are few tricks and alot of pratice.
I took a class that required we be able to hit a 3X5 index card at 7 yards , You had to draw on signal and hit the card in 1.5 seconds. I praticed alot to be able to do that. I got better each day . After the class I didn't pratice it alot and got rusty . So its alot about pratice.