Author Topic: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".  (Read 1070 times)

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Offline guzzijohn

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WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« on: February 02, 2012, 05:03:22 AM »
Question for you all. I have read a small truck load of books on the bombing missions, planes, etc. during WWII. Some times it is mentioned that a bomber gunner mistakenly shot at a friendly fighter. What I do not recall is talk of bomber gunners hitting other bombers. It would seem to me as tight as the formations were that I could could easily see a gunner focused on shooting an attacking fighter accidentally raking another bomber. The second question is, did the top turret have "stops" on it to keep a gunner from shooting the horizontal stabilizer when following and shooting at a fighter?
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 07:27:22 AM »
Ah Yep, there was a stop to prevent the top gunner from blowing away the rudder, and he was limited as to how low he could go to prevent him shooting the tips off the wings, or into the cockpit.  My Father-In-Law was the belly gunner on a B-17.  While I talked about the war with him, I never asked if he ever shot other bombers, or a friendly fighter.  He did say that being in a spinning ball did cause one to get disoriented.   
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Offline guzzijohn

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 08:10:55 AM »
Sourdough, thanks for the information. I figured there had to be some sort of stops or something. Your father-in-law must have been a little guy. Not much room in that belly turret. Seems like one would feel really exposed during an attack. All the crew members had a pair of big ones!
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Offline KIMBER45

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 08:16:55 AM »
My wife's grandfather was a top turret gunner. He told his family he got the job because he was the tallest in his crew.His plane  never made it back from their last mission.
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Offline guzzijohn

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 08:31:09 AM »
Kimber45:
Did your grandfather survive?
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 10:29:10 AM »
I'm sure some B-17s took friendly fire while burning down German cities. More than on USAAF fighter was shot down by the RAF, and by other USAAF fighters. It happened. Ships in battlegroups in the Pacific in 1944-45 were known to take a little friendly AA fire from others in formation while tracking low-flying Japanese planes.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 10:54:49 AM »
guzzijohn:  Yea, he was a little bitty guy during WWII.  He was 5'4", such a short little guy to me, I was 6'3" when I met him.  My wife has gotten several pictures of the different crews he was on.  He is always the smallest guy in the photo, right up front.  He survived his plane being shot down three times.  Once they crash landed in France.  The other two times they bailed out.  He was captured by Germans once, but rescued by the French Underground.  He talked about siting there in his little ball and watching the bombs fall.  Bombing factories, and Rail Yards.  But some falling on Churches, and Housing Areas.  He said he felt sorry about that, but it was war.

In his later years he built an experimental aircraft, called a Quicky.  After he quite flying, I wanted to fly the plane, so I managed to move the rudder pedals out, move the seat back, but I still could not close the canopy.  We removed the Canopy and I flew around without it.  It was a blast to fly, and he offered to let me have it, but it was just too tight and I declined the offer.  At that time the doctors had pulled his health certificate, so he could not fly.  I would take him up in my Cessna 150 and let him fly.  Many times I would let him fly as I was taking him to play golf.  He played on the Senior Tour, and I would fly him to the games.  He had built that little plane just to fly to Golf Games.  Custom built for a man his size, to hold his Golf Clubs and an Over Night bag in a compartment behind the seat.  Not only was he a real war hero, but a remarkable man.
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Offline KIMBER45

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 02:15:27 PM »
Kimber45:
Did your grandfather survive?
GuzziJohn
It was my wife's grandfather. No he did not. Last they heard- the one engine was on fire . The plane was never found. It happened over the English Channel.
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
-------

-------

Offline bilmac

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 02:51:09 PM »
Had to be lots of friendly fire accidents in those situations. I don't think the country was so sissified in those days. Slinging lots of lead saved lives in the long run, but when you sling lots of lead in almost mind blowing confusion, accidents happen.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »
Not only was he a real war hero, but a remarkable man.

Ah, as were they all... a remarkable generation.
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Offline powderman

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 05:05:52 PM »
Many years ago I read an interview with a gunner on a ww11 bomber. He said he was firing at a german fighter flying parallel to them, tracers falling way short,  and the pilot hollered that the german was way out of range, the gunner said, I know, thats right where I intend to keep him. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
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Offline scootrd

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 06:03:46 PM »
In his later years he built an experimental aircraft, called a Quicky.  After he quite flying, I wanted to fly the plane, so I managed to move the rudder pedals out, move the seat back, but I still could not close the canopy.  We removed the Canopy and I flew around without it.  It was a blast to fly, and he offered to let me have it, but it was just too tight and I declined the offer. 

Quickie

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Offline Sourdough

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 07:49:51 PM »
scootrd:  That is the plane.  Seeing that picture brings back memories.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 01:21:40 AM »
SD
What was your FIL's name?
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 04:45:16 AM »
william:  My CFI (certified flight instructor) was Norman Jenkins.  Norm and I spent our entire AF careers being stationed together.  He now lives second door from me.

As for (FIL) don't remember what that stands for, refresh me memory. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline scootrd

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 03:35:42 PM »
scootrd:  That is the plane.  Seeing that picture brings back memories.

I was hoping it would put a smile on your face.

When I a young man , I watch a friend of mines father build one (not sure if it was a Quickie or not) but similar. Once he completed it, I remember all the parents taking their kids to an old abandoned crop duster airstrip where they use to launch
hot air balloons. We all watched him take off on his solo flight and land safely. Everyone cheered!!! Then we all had a huge BBQ.
It was a great memory to have as a young guy and showed me you can do just about anything if you put your mid to it. 
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline bilmac

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 04:38:52 AM »
I bet military was really glad to get duck hunters to do this job. When I was a kid we used to shoot running jackrabbits from the back of a moving pickup. I used to think of it as quite a trick if the rabbit was going any direction but straight away.

 Now that I think about it if you forget about the fact that the truck or plane is moving and look at the problem as if you are just standing on solid ground it really isn't that big a deal. There is just a whale of a lot more variation in the speed of the target from flying the same direction as you to flying the opposite direction.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: WWII bomber formations and "friendly fire".
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 09:26:43 AM »
Patrick Ancel was my father-in-law.

It sure did put a smile on my face, thanks scootrd.    When my Father-in-law (Pat) decided to build that plane, he needed a place to work on it.  He had a metal building put up in his back yard, a garage/shop.  He had it put up in such a way as to be able to unbolt the end and have the whole end of the building removed to get the plane out, the 8' garage door was not wide enough.  I would go over to visit and end up helping cut foam blocks with a hot wire cutter he had made for that purpose.  Later I helped glue the blocks together forming the wings.

Pat built a scale model, using Rutan's plans as designed.  He took it to the NASA engineers that he worked with, and they ran it through the wind tunnel there at Langley.  After testing he and the engineers made changes to the wings.  These changes were sent to Rutan, and they were approved and incorporated with all new plans sent out. 

Pat continued to build the plane with the wing modifications.  The plane used an ONAN engine, the same one that powers generators on many big motor homes.  Pat made a few modifications to that engine as well.  After he was finished and it was time to remove the plane from the garage, all his kids and spouses showed up.  I walked into the garage and was looking at the plane sitting there on saw horses.  I then looked at the end of the building that needed to be removed, and all the bolts that were now rusted. 

On a whim I had my wife and her sister Patty hold the landing gear for stabilization.  I also had her brother Ricky hold the rear wheel.  I got under the plane and placed my back against the underside.  Using my legs I lifted the plane off the saw horses.  Yea, it was heavy, but I could handle it.  I sat it back down on the saw horses.  Pat seeing what I had done, realized my intent and came running with more help.  By moving the plane to the side, twisting and getting one wing clear, then moving to the other side and twisting again we could get the plane out without removing the end of the building.  Pat had Ricky take one side, Brother Mike take the other side, Pat took the tail.  They also helped lift as we lifted and moved the plane.  I lifted and moved forward, then shifted left, turned slightly so the right front wing would clear the garage door.  I moved forward, then shifted right till the left wing cleared.  One step at a time I moved forward till we were completely clear of the garage.  Kids had kept sliding the saw horses forward so they were under the wheels all the time as we moved forward.  Once outside it was then simple to sit it up in a frame built to hold it, mounted on a trailer. 

The following morning (Sunday) at 3 AM I drove my truck towing the extra extra wide load on the trailer, through the deserted streets of New Port News Virginia.  Onto the Interstate and out to Patrick Henry Regional Airport.  I was accompanied by 4 cars with flashing lights.  We had the roads to ourselves.  Once at the airport, with two people on each landing point we lifted it down off the trailer and sat it on the ground.  An hour later Pat took it up on it's first flight.  If he had made the cockpit a little bigger, where I could have fit I would have liked to have that little plane.  At 50% throttle, about 80 knots he could get over 100 miles on a gallon of 87 octane gasoline.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.