Author Topic: Lets talk about 40S&W  (Read 2311 times)

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Offline jlwilliams

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Lets talk about 40S&W
« on: February 04, 2012, 01:57:11 AM »
  I've never owned a 40S&W firearm.  When I started shooting handguns I got into 45acp.  Years later I got into 9mm, mostly as a lower cost plinking round and later as a compact defensive pistol round. ( With new 9mm guns as compact as traditional 380s it's an easy choise to go for more power for less money.)  Anyway, being a little stocked up on 9mm and 45 I never got the urge to split the difference and buy into the 40. 
 
  Now I'm looking at the 40 trying to decide if it's as good as it looks or is it hype.  It apears to be a happy medium.  It fits guns with 9mm sized mag wells but has (aparently) more versatility.  I'm considering it as a semi auto pistol/carbine round.  The 45 is an outstanding pistol round but kind of falls short in a carbine.  Nice big hole, but the trajectory sucks.  9mm has a much flatter shot but is just plain not deer worthy (I'm not planning on using it as my new hunting rifle, but I use that as a measuring stick.)  in a higher capacity gun, the weight of 45 ammo adds up quick.  Not too bad with most pistols but load up some grease gun mags and some sten mags and you see why most armies went with 9mm subguns way back when.
 
  The 40 is on paper pretty similar to the 38-40 which was a widely used two gun cartridge.  Not too much recoil for a hand gun and enough bullet for a viable carbine.  That seems like a round I might should set up a pistol and a carbine and a grip of ammo for.
 
  How does it stack up in the real world.  How do guys who have had it for years like it?  Is it worth the money to add a caliber or should I stick with 9mm and 45?  Is it really better than a well loaded 9mm?

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 04:11:42 AM »
IMO
It is just another unnecessary caliber.
There are many I prefer over this one.
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 05:58:08 AM »
   If I'd run a poll "Happy Medium or Hyped Marketing" then I'd call William's a vote for the latter. 
 
  Thanks for the input.  I hope it's the first of many. 
 
  I'm hoping to get feedback from both supporters and detractors.  Maybe even from guys who bought into it then put it aside, and maybe even some who were dragged kicking and screaming into it but have become big fans.

Offline Slufoot

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 10:09:48 AM »
I really like the 40S&W and recommend it to anyone looking to buy a pistol. It's got the FPE of the 45acp and the magazine capacity dang near the 9mm. What's not to like?
Almost all police carry the 40S&W and that makes brass very easy to get. I always come back from the range with more 40 brass than what I shot and I don't take extra pains looking for my 40 brass.
I've got several guns that shoot .400" diameter bullets, three 38-40's, a 10mm, a 45 caliber muzzleloader and soon to be four 40S&W's. So I guess you could say that I'm partial to this caliber.
 
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Offline Savage

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 11:25:33 AM »
It took me a lot of years to even acknowledge the .40's existence. The .45 was the ONLY way to go. The 9mm was for women and children. After years of exposure on the police ranges, and the growing number of USPSA shooters going to .40 major, I bought my first .40. I found the .40 to be accurate, powerful enough to make major easily, and had a significant capacity advantage over the .45 in a package the same size as the 9mm. As a bonus, I found I could reload the cartridge for about the same cost as the 9mm. Yep, I like the .40, I like it a lot! My Glock 35 is fast becoming my favorite shooter.
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Offline Dand

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 02:38:52 PM »
I'm really not qualified to answer since I hardly have any 45 experience and only moderate 9mm.  But once I had some spare cash and shopped hard for a 45. I have a small hand and nothing really fit or suited me.  While looking, I tried a Walther P99 in 40 that seemed to fit me really well and was really moderate cost.  I finally bought it. Unloaded, its lighter than my SP101, loaded its not much heavier but holds 10 instead of 5 and at 10-20 yards I can shoot it quite well.  I find it pretty accurate, and yeah since our police forces use 40 I can always  come home with plenty of brass. The trigger is mushy but very, almost too easy even double action.  So I've come to really like it tho I haven't shot it a lot lately.  The gun seems very durable and pretty compact.  I have to admit if I haven't practiced for a while, the first shot always startles me with it's sharpness. After that it seems easy to control yet clearly has more punch than the 9. The cases are just enough bigger than the 9 to be enjoyable to reload - I don't really like reloading 9s. I'd like to pick up an all steel CZ 75b in 40 for range work, leave the 99 for carry work. The CZ fits my hand really really well too.  Hope this helps a little.
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Offline Brett

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 04:56:43 PM »
The .40 has more oomph and makes a bigger hole than the 9 mm but fits in the same sized platform.   The grip frame of a hi-cap. .45 must be fatter than a .40 in order to accommodate the wider magazines required for the .45.  You can also get more .40s than .45s into any given length grip frame.   Fifteen rounds of .40 vs ten rounds of .45 in a full size S&W M&P for instance.

As others have mentioned the .40S&W is becoming more and more popular with law enforcement agencies making loaded ammo and components more readily available and less expensive than in the past. 
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Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 05:06:08 PM »
Count me in as a .40 S&W fan also. I shoot all the major calibers and think the .40 S&W hits pretty darn hard. I have fired about 7 different kinds of the major ammo makers in this caliber and really like the Double Tap 165 grn HP's at 1200 FPS. Remington Golden Sabers are no slouch either.
 
This caliber is accurate, holds a heck of alot more rounds than the .45ACP and out punches any 9MM.
 
Get used to it boys, it's here to stay.... and a damn good round.
 
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 05:26:03 PM »
I'm happy with the compromise it represents, about halfway between a .380 and a 10mm. ;)  As a bonus the round is the most available locally.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 10:59:55 PM »
It is a funny conversation in a way---not silly.
I have a Sig P239 with both the .357sig & .40 barrels--this is a re-hash conversation---and I carry it a lot. Easy carry weapon, about like a Commander.
I carry it in the .357sig because I like it better--for shooting--than the .40. I can and do shoot both.
If the forty floats your boat then do it--it is an excellent defensive weapon.
I, personally like the 9x23 but that is subjective.
I also carry revolvers.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 01:14:09 AM »
Why even bother with a intermediate caliber.  If you can't hit with a 9mm or a 45 you are not going to hit with a 40.  If you don't think a opponent will go down with 2 or 3 9mm rounds you need a bit more confidence in yourself.  Actually, I don't care what caliber it is, if you can't put 3 where they are supposed to go, size really won't matter.  I understand from a friend who recently came back from Gunsite that they do not advocate guns that shoot tight groups because accuracy doesn't matter at shooting distances and you don't want all the bullets going into the same hole - why the hay not?  Non-fatal wounds may not even be debilitating so why waste slugs making unimportant holes when you can put two or three through the same hole and get quicker results.
 
And please, the 40 does not compare to the 38-40 from a carbine. All they did with the 40 was to expand a 9mm case to get to a shortened 10mm, or shorten the 10mm to get the 40. Doesn't really matter, the results are the same. The 40 does not equal the 38-40.  The 38-40 is factory loaded soft in deference to older revolvers.  In modern revolvers the 40 S&W will never catch up to the 38-40.  The 38-40 absolutely shines from a carbine length barrel (16-20"), not the 40.  The 40 may or may not shoot better than the 45 from a carbine length barrel, which is spodda be 16", not the 12" of a M3 Grease Gun, but I seriously doubt its trajectory is much better.  The 9 is a flatter shooting round and you can hit to 200m with it but I wouldn't shoot at deer with it..... 
 
I am a big fat bullet guy because they work.  The 9 also works as does the 40 but why split the difference (if you're bored that's one thing). 
 
The ballistics of the 40 Short and Weak are the result of testing the 10mm cartridge with a bunch of limp wristed feds (stacked the deck so to speak....).  The 10 was too much for them, the 9mm loadings used then were not enough to do the job (Miami shootout), so here comes the 40.  I'm not impressed.  This is like saying I need to use hollow pointed flying ashtrays from my 45 on accounta (somebody with no combat experience says) ball doesn't work - anyone want to ask that question in Iraq or Afganistan???  Why is it that in Miami the 9s didn't take down the bad guy - hell, there was no decompression to his chest after being hit without the (3) bullet(s) passing through (in and out) and evacuating the lungs, so what do you want.  They armed the feds with woozy 9mm ammo and it didn't work, so lets quick go to something bigger.  Why the hay didn't you just use harder hitting 9s.  Good grief - a battle dressed soldier running at you with bayonet fixed neither continues to run or even stand after 3 rounds of 9mm ball to the chest, but since the 9mm doesn't work I guess we need something bigger.  I seriously doubt any wounded WWII vets who caught it from a MP38/40 would agree.  As I said before, if you can't do the job with a 9, a bigger gun won't help.   my 2 cents.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 01:51:31 AM »
I have owned a few 40 S&W's. I have also owned a boat load of 9mm handgun.  I feel comfortable with both as a carry round. My all time favorite is a 45 ACP, I like bigger holes that let out a lot of blood. I am not worried about having a gun that carries 17 rounds, my Glock 30 carries 10 in the mag and one in the pipe. Shot placement out weighs rounds count in my book. Also like the 357 sig, I have a Sig P239 and it is a great shooting hot round. I also carry my LCP in .380 and feel just fine with it, but if I feel I need more fire power, I step up to my Glock 30 in 45ACP.    To me the S&W40 is just another choice, and there is nothing wrong with more choices. As said before, the S&W40 is here because of some wimpy FBI agents that could not handle the 10mm, which in my book is a great round for carry, and hunting deer size game.
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 02:27:36 AM »

 
And please, the 40 does not compare to the 38-40 from a carbine.

  Please elaborate.  The tables I've seen give the 40S&W and the 38-40 both pretty close to each other in the same length barrels.  For the sake of apples to apples comparison they both run around 1000fps with a 180 grain projo from about 5 inces of pipe, give or take on all those numbers.  I do see lots of down loaded 38-40 for old guns listed in the load book and online and lots of hot 40 loads listed because all the guns in 40 are modern so that should be taken into account.  Anyway, they are listed at about the same general neighborhood in the same barrel lenght.  How is a 40 S&W and the 38-40 comparable in a handgun but not in a long gun?  Are you saying that they are not comparable at all, or that a 40 pistol doesn't compare to a 38-40 rifle?  In what way do they not compare?
  Historicaly, the 38-40 was pretty popular as a two gun round.  Good in a pistol, good in a carbine.  Looking at the 40, it looks similar as far as size, weight and speed of the pill.  Seeing that similarity, I'm thinking that the 40 may likewise be a good two gun round.  If you are saying that's not the case, please tell me more.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 06:05:33 AM »
I like it, all three of my Glocks are 40s.


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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 07:33:36 AM »
DON'T bring up the Taurus Mikey. ;D :P
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 01:12:08 AM »
jwilliams:  My old Lyman 43rd Edition shows loadings for the 38-40 carbine with the 180 gn jacketed slug or the 172 gn cast to nip on out there at between 1400'/sec - 1900+'/sec from a 20" bbl; 2400 and IMR 4227 are the preferred powders.  From a revolver those loadings run about the same as they would in the 40 S&W.  Also, the 40 is a semi-auto round fired from a closed chamber while the 38-40 is a old revolver round and many of the revolvers still shooting this caliber are older.  A newer revovler, say a Ruger Blackhawk or a S&W N frame, chambered in the 38-40 by some of the custom gunsmiths is capable of much hotter loadings.  In addition, the 38-40's larger case capacity gives it a long leg up when reloading with slower burning powders and shot from closed chamber carbines or rifles with longer barrels. 

As for being a 2 gun round - the 38-40 shines pretty well at that task, and I'm sure the 40 would take on some added benefits when fired from a longer tube but about the best bullet weight for the 40 bore is right around 180 gns and that would give the longest and possibly best downrange trajectory and performance I believe.  I think the shorter, fatter hps at 135-150 gns would probably puke out and lose accuracy at carbine ranges. 
 
I have thought of finding myself a new(er) Winchester M92 clone and having it rebarrelled for the 38-40 and having my S&W M28 worked up to match, and having fun.  Ah, maybe someday.
 
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 04:13:24 AM »
Mikey, I'm surprised to hear that you can't get a '92 clone in 38-40.  I'm not a cowboy action shooter so I don't really follow what's out there but I do know that you can get 38-40 revolvers and I know the cowboy game is big business in the gun industry.  Why wouldn't you see lever rifles in all the available cowboy loads? 
  Back to the 40.  I'll dig around a bit and see what numbers I can find for carbine balistics.  I know there aren't all that many shoulder guns in that caliber but I know I've seen ARs and of course the MP5-40.  The MP5 is priced a bit out of my league, but IMO it's about the best shoulder gun in the auto pistol calibers.  Not too many locked breaches or even delayed blowbacks in those rounds.  Too bad, you can get a lighter gun and better balistics with a locked breach.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 01:31:55 PM »
jlwilliams:  you can easily obtain new 92 Winchester clones in 38-40 but since I have one in 357 I thought, well maybe.  How so ever (more than once I might add) Cimarron Arms makes some beautiful 92 Winchester clones in 38-40 but if I just want a neat lever to shoot then it will have to be the 92 in 357, for the time being.........

Offline Glock Doctor

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2012, 02:17:12 PM »
……. Now I'm looking at the 40 trying to decide if it's as good as it looks or is it hype.  ……. How does it stack up in the real world.  How do guys who have had it for years like it?  Is it worth the money to add a caliber or should I stick with 9mm and 45?  Is it really better than a well loaded 9mm?
 
Personally, I don’t like the recoil characteristics.  The, ‘kick’ is faster and harder than 9mm as well as more difficult to control than the slow heavy push of 45 ACP.  When compared to +P+ 9mm rounds there is little, if any, advantage to using 40 S&W. 

IMO,  It is just another unnecessary caliber.  There are many I prefer over this one.

That’s, pretty much, my opinion too.  The only other thing I’ll add is that 40 S&W has a very high, ‘peak ignition’ pressure curve.  True, 9mm and 40 S&W are both rated at a SAMMI maximum of 35,000 PSI; however, it’s a little known fact that the peak ignition pressures are radically different - With 40 S&W being rated much higher. 

The following article - while it does NOT deal with peak ignition pressure - will give the Reader some idea of what I’m talking about. 

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm 
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Offline Flash

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 02:40:14 PM »
What I like about the cartridge is the outside diameter of the case is .423. If you anneal it, bump it up to .429 and fill it with lead, you have a cheap 44 mag jacketed wadcutter. Of course I also own two 40's and prefer them to a 9mm or a 45ACP.
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Offline dakotashooter2

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2012, 10:13:07 AM »
I like it... the brass is easier to find than 9mm in the long grass............. ;)
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2012, 10:17:56 AM »
If one goes back in  history you will  find is the Army used 45 Colt revolvers. The law men and many others used 41 colts and 38-40's and such. They worked well . The 40 S&W is history repeating . Can't keep a good combination down
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 01:19:10 PM »
The .40 only exist because the 10mm was too much for girls and sissies.  So, the 10 got shortened and weakened.  It most certainly is a short and weak 10mm.  Short and weak, short and weak, short and weak.  It's no better than a 9mm, just kicks a little more.  It is a totally unneccesary cartridge.  It fills no gap whatsoever.
I say if you want a 40 caliber pistol, don't be a baby about it; go ahead and get a 10.  No?  Too much for you?  Exactly my point.   
That's my opinion, but not the opinion of most all U.S. police departments.  Maybe they know something I don't. 
   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 01:23:55 AM »
Mike in some cases a faster bullet will psss thru. doing less damage than a slower bullet all other things considered . Also with a 40 recovery time is faster if a second shot is needed like when several bad guys are comming at you. Many in America are magnum crazy but in reality at realistic distances the extra power can be more trouble than help in some cases like passing thru a bad guy to go on and harm someone else.
I have a 10mm and enjoy it alot and in some cases it is a good SD gun . I also have a 40S&W and have never felt under gunned as far as hand guns go.
I would ask if the bullet passes thru the bad guy be it from a 40 S&W or 10mm exactly what good the the extra energy do good after leaving the bad guy ?
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Offline tinman

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 03:49:02 AM »
bill jordan, skeeter skelton, and elmer keith had called for a 40 cal. cartridge for law enforcement for years.  they were thinking revolvers, they got it in an auto.  ill stick with their judgment.  though i wonder if they would have voted for the 45acp

Offline Savage

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 05:59:57 AM »
Actually, the world would be just fine if we only had two pistol rounds. A rimfire and a centerfire. The rimfire could be 5mm, .17 or .22, the centerfire could be any one of the current cartridges. All our needs would be met. Therefore, it could be argued that 99% of our centerfire pistol cartridges are unnecessary, and at least 30% or so of the rimfires as well.  All we'd have left to debate would be the platform to shoot them in and which bullet weight and/or profile.
I own pistols in most of the current popular calibers, and enjoy the variety,( including the manly 10mm.)  ::) I find some better in certain applications than others. Right now I' shooting more .40 than anything else because it works well in my applications. Isn't it great to have choices?
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 12:49:56 AM »
I applaud choice.
I also recognize that all calibers came about due to needs and applications. Most of the popularity with reloading follows a parallel.
There are three kinds of needs---IMO.
There is a self defense need, a range need and a physical limitation need.
This limitation can be met by reloading or caliber choices.
My particular needs these days are range pleasure. I refuse to shoot the little PPK's, Snubbies anymore that a mag at a time---just not fun. I refuse to shoot the big mags for the same reason.
I am old and have nothing left in life to prove, much less not enjoying it while trying to prove I still can.
The snubbies reside under a matress and the pocket pistols still enjoy going out once in a while.
You youngsters will understand all of this, one day.
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Offline Brett

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 03:42:54 AM »
The .40 only exist because the 10mm was too much for girls and sissies.  So, the 10 got shortened and weakened.  It most certainly is a short and weak 10mm.  Short and weak, short and weak, short and weak.  It's no better than a 9mm, just kicks a little more.  It is a totally unneccesary cartridge.  It fills no gap whatsoever.
I say if you want a 40 caliber pistol, don't be a baby about it; go ahead and get a 10.  No?  Too much for you?  Exactly my point.   
That's my opinion, but not the opinion of most all U.S. police departments.  Maybe they know something I don't. 
 

A key element which seems to have eluded you is that the length of the 10mm requires a large frame pistol whereas the .40 "Short & Week" as you call it fits into a midsized pistol.   So females or even real men with smaller hands can acquire a better grip on the weapon.  I doubt that anyone shot with either round will argue the difference in power.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 08:40:47 AM »
The .40 only exist because the 10mm was too much for girls and sissies.  So, the 10 got shortened and weakened.  It most certainly is a short and weak 10mm.  Short and weak, short and weak, short and weak.  It's no better than a 9mm, just kicks a little more.  It is a totally unneccesary cartridge.  It fills no gap whatsoever.
I say if you want a 40 caliber pistol, don't be a baby about it; go ahead and get a 10.  No?  Too much for you?  Exactly my point.   
That's my opinion, but not the opinion of most all U.S. police departments.  Maybe they know something I don't. 
 

A key element which seems to have eluded you is that the length of the 10mm requires a large frame pistol whereas the .40 "Short & Week" as you call it fits into a midsized pistol.   So females or even real men with smaller hands can acquire a better grip on the weapon.  I doubt that anyone shot with either round will argue the difference in power.

 
 
Not to mention hide it better
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Offline tcencore3006

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Re: Lets talk about 40S&W
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2012, 02:05:29 AM »
I recently picked up a S&W 4006.  I got a heck of deal and the gun is like new and still has the box and all paperwork.  If you are looking to carry don't go with a 4000 series s&w.  They weigh a ton.  However, they shoot like a dream.  I love the gun but don't carry due to the weight.  I think it is a nice round.  It sleeps under my bed in my pistol safe.  11 round in the mag and 1 in the chamber.  Another benefit of an older gun when you live in a state like NY.
Newest toy? Smith & Wesson 4006