12 ga. Slugs

[Turk]

Can anyone tell me what brand of 12 ga. slugs the Alaska Wildlife Troopers carry in the field for bear protection or is it up to individuals personal choice?
Thanks,
Turk

[Rex in OTZ]

 Each station is responsible with purchasing ammo from its operating budget so there is no consistent Brand across the state.
 
I cane tell you what the Federal Fish and Wildlife workers carry in the field is
 
 
 Gold Magnum Ballistic Data Long distance and accuracy – sometimes you need a specialist: the Gold Magnum: designed for rifled barrels only it is not only one of the heaviest slugs available, it is also one of the most accurate slugs on the market. It has broad ribs for optimum guidance in the rifled barrel and a special coating to reduce lead fouling. The Gold Magnum offers superb knockdown power at any kind of game.

Calibre: 12GA 3”
Weight: 1 3/8oz, 600grs, 39g
Game: bear, moose, deer, wild boar, coyote
barrel: rifled only
chokes: non
range: 100+ yards
 

Calibre: 12GA 2 ¾”
Weight: 1 1/4oz, 484grs, 31,4g
Game: moose, deer, wild boar, coyote
barrel: smooth and rifled
chokes: all
range: up to 100 yards

[Dand]

I don't know about the Troopers or the ADFG Game Division biologists (now Wlidlife Conservation) but with the Fisheries Divisions most of us didn't spend a lot of time studying the brands, and in the bush it was often just what was available.  Usually that was basic Remington or Federal slugs. One time I went through our guns and ammo and realized we'd sent a kid out with a 2/34 chambered gun and only 3 inch shells. After that I tried to get rid of the short chamber gun, used up a bunch of the really really old ammo for crew practice to at least have fresh ammo in the camps. For a while we had a vender selling the Brenneke brand, (Black I think) and he claimed the troopers were buying it. I bought several boxes and tried them out - they seem good.  I also tried the Remington Buck Hammer rounds - but we never had a bear incident so I can't speak to performance. The Brenneke would be my first choice in as heavy a load as you can get. And its a good idea to shoot a few to know what to expect.  I was surprised how accurate all the slugs seemed to be in a gun with no rifle sights at about 15-20 yards. 

[Winter Hawk]

With the Forest Service in S.E. Alaska we carried Mossbergs and Ithacas in big bear country, or the .375 H&H.  I actually preferred the .375 as it was a lot more pleasant to shoot than the 12 ga. slugs.  We used the Remington Sluggers as a matter of course.  No one I knew of ever had to use one, probably because of all the hassle with the State if you did.

At the same time, when I was at Cape Yakataga one of the guys shot a black bear with slugs, it took him five shots to kill it.  I was not impressed...

-Kees-

[pastorp]

A few years ago, I was carring a Bennelli M190 with slugs some of the time for bear protection. So I decided to test a variety of slugs for penetration. After all thats what it takes to break down a heavy boned animal. I tested my slugs on 12"x12" cants. The remington & federals would not shoot through the even at point blank range, however the 2&3/4" brenneki slugs would.  So I bought 1,000 rds of them & have used them happyly ever since. 

Regards,

[Sourdough]

I hand load my slugs, and use a slug designed for big game.  This slug fits in a standard 12ga shotcup, and behind a star crimp.  but I only use them for Deer.  I do not carry slugs for Bears.  If I am being attacked by a bear, I am shooting for the nose, with shot.  There I stand a chance of hitting the nose, and eyes.  The brain is behind both.  I usually carry #4 Buck shot.

[Turk]

Thanks guys for the information.
Turk

[Rex in OTZ]

If your plan is hopeing for a brain shot, get it right the first time, think big, hairy pissed off terminator tearing you up with teeth and claws while throwing you round like a ragdoll.
 
The eyes are boney loops on the sides the skull, and the nasel cavity is not a direct avenue to the brain as most would suppose, you get a chance look one over I'd suggest you do.
 I had a Brown bear skull in my lap that'd I'd studied for hours thinking the very same thing you fellas are talking, in the end its best to avoid them as much as you can by how you conduct yourself, even if you'd of fatally shot a attacking bear theirs no guarentee that it wont kill you before it expires
If the Brain was a primary effective target to immobilizea agressive bear it'd be taught relentlessly to all people that work afield in Bear Country,  But they dont and for good reason.
At best they only train to get bears to lose interest (bear spray) or to curtail a attack by wounding with a large heavy projectile that is capable of making its way through thick hide, musle, sinue, bone, to hurt the bear and get it to disengage its attack.
 
 
 This thread is found in every gun forum and is repeated over and over.   The best tool ever devised to deal with bears is between your ears.
Any place you walk, City&Town or Rivers & Mountains, you pay attention to where you are and your surroundings, allert to threats, wither the seedy end of town on Saturday night or a willow lined river bank, (You get my drift?) are just as hazardus.
Pound for pound, push for bite the bear wins every time, You choose to ignore the warning signs nature provides at your own risk.
Hunting Bear a .243winchester or a .38 will do (documentd cases of this).
A enraged or agressive bear pumping with adrinalin coursing through its veins is a whole diffrent story!
(documented case of young griz attack on YK delta hit by sabot slugs a total of 9 times out of 14 rounds fired in the 25 second attack only 2 were in a vitals area the rest sprued off bone and musle).
A firearm as defence from Grizz attack? If your carelessness has gotten you to that point their's only one option, allot of Hurt in one shot and thats 12ga Slugs, anything else is forplay before the Human Buffet opens for business.
 
Like they say there is no Crying in Baseball and No brain shots on bears.
 

  Bear Guns are like Four Wheel Drive.
A little common sense goes a Loooong way in avoiding a sticky situation!   
 
         

[Rex in OTZ]

Remember to keep a clean camp
Pay attention to your surroundings
Wind and river noise can mask your presence till its too late
Bears will dig up your cat holes to eat your droppings!
The Outhouse and Porta Pottie tent should should be located well away out in a wide open clearing as furthest away from Vegitation/cover that Bears can hide in the better.
Food preparation and food storage shouldnt be anywhere near your sleeping/rest areas, As far away as your toilet area 100feet+ away from camp/sleeping zone way out in a open area.
 
Bear Spray is a great for breaking a charge or attack, its not a repellant though, I'd seen video footage of a bear watching party in Kaktovik AK (bears feasting on wale carcass) show a young male polar bear getting spray'd in the face when it was too interested in one the vehicle the driver's, what the vid also shown was after the bear backed off and was having a time of it with bear spray in his eyes and nose, the smell of the spray attracted two other bears off the wale carcass and they come over to the spray'd bear they started licking him like a Lolly pop and nuzzling him (kinda like when dogs roll in road kill skunk) what the Bear Spray marketing Wont tell you, Discharged Bear Spray Is a Bear Attractant!

[Couger]

Would you guys carry a big powerful gun loaded with Nosler Partitions if available?
 
 
 
Then in a 12 gauge
consider the 3inch Winchester "Partition Gold" load with its 385 grain bullet. 
This load generates more than 3400 foot-pounds of muzzle energy
(and over 2000fps MV).  A .30/06 isn't as powerful.
 
No one ever talks about that load, with its .50-calber 385 grain "Partition" bullet.
 
Yes that slug does have a hollow-point, but it is half-inch in diameter, and is a Partition.
Its is even more powerful by a few foot-pounds of energy, than the afforementioned Brenneke slug!
 
And besides that 385 grain 3inch 12gauge Winchester Partition load ,
and the 3inch 1 3/8ounce Brenneke slog load,
 
thre is ALSO the Remington 3inch 12gauge BUCKHAMMER load,
that also propels a 1 3/8ounce (602 grains) lead slug with 3200+ foot-pounds of ME.
 
Now ..... I've never been to Alaska nor had to stop a bear attack,  and HOPE I never have too!
 
But if I ever have to carry a longgun for bear defense that isn't a .45/70 or .30/06
(my two biggest rifles),
 
it will be a 12 gauge loaded with those 385 grain 'Winchester Gold' Partitions!  That bullet is almost 1 3/8inches long!  1/2inch in diameter.     (I remeasured the slug length!)
 
BTW, earlier someone mentioned a local game dept in one Alaska county that issued Remington "Sluggers" for bear protection, and that a black bear absorbed 5 hits before finally expiring.
 
The Remington Slugger slugs are Forster style lead slugs, and the one Remington uses for their "managed recoil" (reduced) loads!  Go figure! 

[RevJim]

 As a camp gun here in Utah, I keep my 870 loaded with Dixie slugs older made "Tuskers", 600grs of hardened lead. I have someof their "Terminators' ( which I thought had "terminated me" when I touche done off!) it is over 700grs of hardened lead..ouch. Either would make me feel "loaded for bear" at "OMG here he comes" distances. www.dixieslugs.com

[Graybeard]

You can trust a slug from a shotgun for bear if ya wanna but I won't. I've killed a grand total of one deer with a one ounce slug from a 12 ga. It was fired at most from 15 yards maybe a tad less. It failed to exit and the deer ran 75+ yards before falling over dead. Shot placement was about dead center of the lungs on a broadside shot.

That performance did not instill confidence in me to use a slug on any large or dangerous game. If a bear were charging directly at me and I needed to put it down rat now before it was on top of me I would not want a shotgun in my hands and not a shotgun slug as my projectile.

Might work fine but I'd not want to find out personally.

[muznut 54]

I have to bring this up only because Rex mentioned the .38 when my Pop was young and before I was born he shot a black bear in Maine with a .38 revolver he was drunk and the bear was in a foot trap and he said that the chain was wrapped around a sapling and he thought it was the stake well he got to close and the bear attacked him he said the last shot finally killed the bear only because he had barrel stuck right in his eye and he said he went home to my mother with blood and black stuff from the bears eye all over him both my Mom and Pop told that story for years and my old man always cussed the .38 for that.

[ironglow]

  I don't know what they use, but i tend to agree with thje brennekes..because they offer the knockdown of others.. with better penetration (IMO).

[Sourdough]

I do know that if you take out the eyes and the nose the bear can not find you.  That is my goal.  Once I have done that killing it can be done more efficient.

I've used slugs on wild hogs.  Was not impressed one bit.  Took too many shots to stop one.  Yet Buckshot in the face stopped them every time.

I witnessed a man named Farmer, stand his ground with a charging Grizzly.  At 20ft he shot number 4 buck shot straight into the face of the Bear.  Then rapidly took four steps to the right.  Bear flew right by him, then ran into a tree.  As the Bear was getting up, Farmer pulled his .44 Mag and shot it in the back of the head.  Shot had totally distroyed the Nose and eyes.  Without nose and eyes Bears can't find you very well.  I feel number 4 Buckshot will penatrate the back of the head as well and reach the brain.  Nothing else it will damage the spine, and give you a chance to keep shooting.

As long as they are moving I keep shooting.

[RevJim]

 Dang Sourdough, that's "getting plumb Medievil on them", ain't it? ha. My Dad would have said that after he had "shot him several times, then he would run up and stick him with his pocket knife and beat him with a stick", lol. Those big humped back bears just scare me, I admit. Even a mean sow black bear gets my dander up...I don't trust any of them.

[SHOOTALL]

Slugs differ for sure . Some good ones come from lightfield. I have to use a shotgun in some counties we hunt and I use a Savage 210 with 1 1/8 Lightfield sabot slugs . I shot two deer running together a few years back both slugs went thru. the shot was at least 80 yards which is farther than most rifle shots I get to take.
The foster slugs for smooth bore often are on the small side and don't shoot all that well in some guns.
If you tote a pump I would stick with 2 3/4 shells as they tend to be short shucked less .
I have a good friend that has hunted bear in the Great Dismal Swamp for over 40 years . Most of the bear he has taken were with shotgun some slugs others slug. His first few with a 20 ga. . He was protecting crops much of the time .
When hunting Canada we were duck and goose hunting so lead was out we carried slugs made out of heavi shot , they were 3.5 shells and were if needed to be used in an auto loader that was set up for such while hunting. We saw grizz and black bears but none were ever a concern

[cwlongshot]

I do not know what slugs you guys buy that don't penetrate a whitetail broad side...

I have been shooting them since I was a kid and never saw one not.. I have shot all brands, much of my slug shooting experience was more then thirty years ago when it was all we could use... I used 20, 16 and 12 with 100% success. Of the three MOST was 16 & 20 gauge's! This is LONG before any "designer" slugs too. I am talking old style punkin' balls and foster slugs.

More reciently, say 10-15 years ago I have been shooting hogs with them. Again 100% success, two pigs both boars shot at 5-10 yards between the eyes had the slugs penetrate into the vitals and assumed they where left on the ground in the gut pile as we did not see a exit and did not find a slug.

The new slugs improve slug preformance ten fold!! I have used these Buck Hammers and was sad to learn they where discontinued. so much so I bought ALL I COULD FIND!! The Win premiums shoot pretty good as do all the Remington's. Hornady's are a favorite of my 20Ga USH. These Hornadys are suprising too as the recoil seems half what all others are, yet last year two deer fell to it with bones struck and no complete slugs recovered.

In my 12G USH I shoot both the Buck Hammers and Copper solids both core lokts and Premiums with the green tips and they shoot well enough that 200 yard shooting is entirely within its capabilities. I am also luck enough to be able to shoot all three at SAME sightings! The BH will hit dead on at 100 while the Corelokts and Premiums strike almost 2" high at 100 making them just about 1" low at 200.

I don't use it much anymore, but Its nice to know its right there should I need it!

CW

[Dand]

cwlong -  have  you ever tried the Remington all copper slugs?  I've wondered about them.  I have some of those buckhammers but wondered if they might be too soft.  I expect to fly into very remote Alaska on Thursday and I'm trying to decide what to take w my shotgun.  I'll probably throw in some bird shot too so in case the weather socks in for a while.  Its been real rainy and windy lately in Bristol Bay.

[cwlongshot]

cwlong -  have  you ever tried the Remington all copper slugs?  I've wondered about them.  I have some of those buckhammers but wondered if they might be too soft.  I expect to fly into very remote Alaska on Thursday and I'm trying to decide what to take w my shotgun.  I'll probably throw in some bird shot too so in case the weather socks in for a while.  Its been real rainy and windy lately in Bristol Bay.

Yes,
Are you asking about the Remington, Copper Solids or the Federal, Barnes Expanders? I know the

Remington's are no longer avalible. The slug was manufacturered to have four "pedals" that tore off and produced additional wound tracts. I shot a couple deer with them, they where wonderfully accurate in my guns but I don't think I ever shot game with them.

The Federal Expanders, may or may not still be offered, I do not know. I used to shoot these in my 870 rifled barrel when I had it. They shot well and I did shoot a couple deer with them. Come to think of it I did recover one of these in a deer! I have pics somewhere, I do know where the slug is so I can take more if your interested. It was picture perfect expansion!

NEITHER WOULD BE MY CHOICE FOR USE AS DESCRIBED IN THIS POST.

CW

[Winter Hawk]

The Forest Service requirements for bear protection was (I left 6 years ago, don't know if it has changed since then) 12 gauge pump or .30-06 with 220 grain bullets, minimum.  Issue was either a 12 gauge or .375 H&H magnum.  With the survey section I was able to get a model 700 in .375 which law enforcement didn't want, rather than the Mossberg and Ithaca shotguns we were using.  The first time we took it to the range I found out why they didn't want it - the bolt was so gummed up that you could watch the striker slowly go down.  I took it home and cleaned it out after which it worked great, but later (after  had moved on) I was told that the same problem developed and the Forest Surveyor bought a Marlin Guide Gun for himself in 45-70 and got rid of the Remington.  But I bet no one cleaned it after I did either.  Maintenance is everything!

In 1969 I was working at Cape Yakataga.  One of the guys took his 12 gauge bear hunting.  He shot a BIG blackie, but it took five shots to kill it.  I have never been impressed with slugs since.

I remember reading in a book on Alaska ("No Room For Bears" by DuFresquene, maybe?) where the writer was with an old timer in the hills of S.E. hunting ptarmigan.  On the way back to camp they were charged by a brownie.  They only had one shotgun between them, and the older guy waited until the bear was very close, then shot it in the face and (as in Sourdough's experience) stepped to the side.  The bear was blinded and ran full tilt off a cliff.

-Kees-