Newb handloading question - be patient please

[RPRNY]

The only rifle that I have found chambered for the 454 is the Rossi Puma lever gun. Consequently, I am not finding commercial ammo designed for a rifle application and I take it Hornady doesn't see the volume to justify a commercial 250 gr FTX load in 454.  So I am investigating hand loading and have been thinking about the .452" 250 gr FTX (used in the 450 Bushmaster round) as a very good deer bullet and quite flat out to 150 yards. But, there are two issues (so far) that I see. First, I can find no load data for this bullet in 454. Will load data for another 250 gr bullet suffice or is weight only one consideration (suitability for velocities are a given seeing that they are getting 2300 MV in the 450 Bushmaster). Secondly, I need to make sure that my thinking is correct. The 250 gr FTX has no cannelure (thus the lack of 454 related load data) but in a single shot rifle, a taper crimp will do, no?

The 200 gr FTX (.452) as used in the S&W 460 is also a candidate but I don't think the 454 performs well with light bullets. Does that seem right or have I been misled by internet skullduggery....?

If this is ridiculous, newbulous thinking, please be patient.

[quickdtoo]

I've loaded the 250gr SST, which is the same bullet as the FTX, in my 45 Colt and the 460S&W Handis, just figure out where the base of the bullet is for known bullet data of a same bullet weight like the XTP, and work up from start data. Since you don't have to crimp for a single shot, it's not an issue, neither is COL as long as the bullet isn't touching the lands and isn't seated deeper than data shows for a bullet of the same weight, the key is to work up slowly. 

Tim

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

[gendoc]

the key is to work up slowly. 

Tim

thatsa bout tha best info i've red all day........................

[quickdtoo]

 

[RPRNY]

Okay, so I guess I was on the right track, thanks. That's very helpful, Tim. I'm not sure on a couple of points that you make though.

Is the 250 gr SST the same bullet as the FTX ?  Is the jacket depth thick enough for 454 velocities ? I probably need to check with Hornady, right?

I'm concerned about using comparative data. The 250 gr XTP is not ideal because it really ought not be loaded to 454 velocities. There's the 240 gr XTP Mag which is specifically for the 454 but now it's different weight and a different bulllet... In any event, I am also not sure on two points you raise. 1) How do I find out seating depth on a comparison bullet for which there is load data. For example, I have found published data for 454 loads for the 250 gr XTP (despite it allegedly not being suitable for the 454) but there is no reference to seating depth. 2) How will I know or determine whether the bullet is touching the lands once seated?

Clearly, I need to get a proper reloading manual, presumably Hornady in this case, but I would like to have some idea if I can make this work before investing...

[yukondog]

You can take a black marker and color the bullet if it is to long and touches the lands it will show, in mine I load the 200 FTX and you might have a problem with chambering because of the OAL, in mine I have to load them single from the top, they hang up in the mag. tube. Before you load you might want to make a few dummy rounds.

[geezer56]

Hand loading in a single shot has its own little quirks.  One of the good ones is that you can open the action and drop the projectile that you plan to use into the chamber.  Let it drop until it hits the lands.  Take your caliper and see just how far from the chamber end to the base of the bullet.  Take a cleaning rod or short piece of rod, knock the bullet back out.  Take the calipers and check the length of the bullet, add the two measurements, and then deduct the amount of jump to the lands that you want to try.  That figure is your over all length for the loaded round.  Double check your dummy round (Cause you need to make one) in the chamber and start working up your load.  RECORD EVERYTHING!  Nothing worse than finding a load that works great, taking a nap, and forgetting just what it was that worked so well.  Cast bullets usually work best seated against the lands, jacketed varies.  Some combinations want a long jump, some shorter.  Most of the time, in the single shots, best accuracy is way below the max load.  OOPS!  The Rossi is a different deal.  The majic marker is your friend there.  You can also take a hacksaw and split the case mouth, deburr, and seat a bullet.  Close the action and the bullet will seat to the max OAL against the lands.  Remove carefully and check length.  Hope this helps.

[scratchmark]

as for reloading manuals, ive got em all the way back to the '30's and not a single one are the same. check your test vehicle specs against what your using and start at the starting load then work your way up. ive even got consecutive editions of the same brand manual and both are different from each other so dont just get one book.

[44 Man]

One thing to remember though, is to match the bullet to the velocity.  Some people got into trouble when loaded the same bullets that they always used in their .45 Colt Ruger loads into the .454.  With the higher pressure, you have to use a bullet with a heavy jacket that's made for the .454.  Several friends I know have ringed the barrel on their FA's using the wrong bullets.  (FA replaced the barrels free)  If the bullet is not made for the pressure, it can turn inside out in the barrel, and of course if it gets downrange ok, it may come apart on the game.  So be sure to use bullets that are intended for the .454, not the .45 Colt.  It sounds like you are on the right track and should have a lot of fun!  44 Man

[RPRNY]

Thanks very much for the helpful remarks. Just to clarify, I am loading for a Handi 20" 45 Colt barrel that has been reamed to 454. The reference to the Rossi came about because their lever gun is the only production rifle I have come across  chambered in 454. Given that the Hornady 250 gr SST is used in the 450 Bushmaster cartridge at 2300 MV, I am confident that it will handle 454 velocities. The big question is where does it put OAL.  Your tips on how to figure out seating depth are extremely helpful. And the advice on recording is noted and appreciated. I will advise on developments, thanks.

[LaOtto222]

For the most part, ammo for a handgun works just fine in a rifle. You only have to be careful about its use and consider the bullet construction. Even though 454 ammo is expensive, buying all the equipment to reload is expensive too. If you reload enough, you can recoup your investment, but if you are going to use the 454 for hunting, I seriously doubt if you can recoup your investment. Do not get me wrong, I love to reload, it is relaxing to me and a nice hobby that saves money, because I shoot a lot and a large variety of cases.
Here is one example of a factory load that will work in a rifle.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/663753/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-454-casull-250-grain-barnes-xpb-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20


Here is another
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/218217/doubletap-ammunition-454-casull-360-grain-wide-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-20


Good Shooting and Good Luck

[quickdtoo]

Is the 250 gr SST the same bullet as the FTX ?  Is the jacket depth thick enough for 454 velocities ? I probably need to check with Hornady, right?

Yes, it's the same bullet as I said before, Savage smokeless shooters use it up to 2600fps MV, GBO member Grumulkin uses it in his 460S&W Encore, has shot several african plains animals with it including zebra, that's why I chose it, but I haven't tried his powder yet which is 2400, I've only used Lil'gun in the 460. FWIW, the 200gr Hornady factory ammo ran just short of 2900fps in the 460, it's made for 2200fps MV from a revolver.

Tim

[RPRNY]

Thanks Tim, that info on the 200 gr FTX  performance in the 460 helps confirm my interest in the 250 gr STS. My guess is that at pressures in the lower end of the medium range, it will move out in the @ 2000 fps and retain good velocity out to 150 yards. Of course the answer might be to ream out for 460 and be happy with factory ammo!

I appreciate the advice on factory loads above and I recognize that in my newbish enthusiasm I may be pursuing an abstract, but the BC for the 250 gr SST is .210 whereas for the 240 gr Hornady XTP Mag it's .160 and for the 250 gr Barnes Expander in the VitalShok, it's .141. Sectional density for the Barnes is obviously very good at  .176 vs .175 for the SST. It just strikes me (COL allowing) as the bullet for a carbine and a simple improvement. We shall see.

[RPRNY]

Well, looks like there's a reason I can't find anyone loading the 250 FTX in 454. Bullet length according to Hornady is .950" compared to .675" for the 240gr XTP. So, seated to the same depth as the XTP, .288", it would be .275" longer than the SAAMI COL. Unless my math is off, more than a 1/4" is pretty substantial. I would imagine that is almost entirely ogive and that it might not actually be touching the lands, but I can't imagine there will be .001" to spare.... I suppose a slight cartridge trim might get it done, but I think this is beyond my abilities. There goes the Mini-Bushmaster....

COL           1.770
Case          1.383
240 XTP     0.675
250 FTX     0.950

[quickdtoo]

It chambered fine in my 45 Colt at 1.941", touched the lands at 1.951".

Tim

[RPRNY]

Well Tim, as the Brits say, looks like I'm going to have to suck it and see. I will advise on results.

[quickdtoo]

I checked the 454 reamer, is looks like it cuts a nice tapered leade just like the 357Maxi reamer, shouldn't be a problem with the SST/FTX bullet.  My other 45 Colt Carbine barrel is still a virgin or I'd know for sure how long it can be seated to, but it's easy to find out.

Tim