Author Topic: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..  (Read 1296 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« on: February 06, 2012, 12:04:39 AM »
     With a bunch of liberals running the show, our traditional mnilitary is going to be crippled because they want to promote a sissified, socially engineered immitation of a fighting force!
  If an individual cannot obey orders or stay awake on guard duty, what in &^$#@ blazes is he doing in a combat unit...endangering other, REAL Marines?   Do you suppose that his aunty being a member of congress has anything to do with it?   If he can't take the heat..he should stay out of the kitchen (sage advice from Pres. Harry S. Truman).
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   Marine sergeant accused of hazing goes to trial Feb 6 03:57 AM US/Eastern
By AUDREY McAVOY
Associated Press  Comments (0) Email to a friend Share on Facebook Tweet this       HONOLULU (AP) - A second Marine is going to trial for allegedly hazing a fellow Marine who later fatally shot himself in Afghanistan. Sgt. Benjamin Johns has been charged with a wrongfully humiliating and demeaning Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, who killed himself on April 3. Johns, a squad leader, has also charged with dereliction for failing to supervise and ensure the welfare of Marines under his care.
  The general court-martial is set for Monday at a Marine base in Kaneohe Bay, the home of the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Division, which the accused are assigned to. Proceedings will start with the selection of a jury. Johns' attorney said his client was only trying to save the lives of his squad as he tried to get Lew—who had repeatedly fallen asleep on watch and patrol—to stop dozing off. The base had been fired on before, and Johns was concerned Lew wouldn't spot Taliban fighters trying to attack their outpost again, Tim Bilecki said. "These aren't acts of hazing. They're simply not," Bilecki said. "These are actions of a Marine trying to take care of his other Marines." Another Marine in the squad, Lance Cpl. Jacob Jacoby, last week pleaded guilty to assault. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and demoted to private first class. A third Marine will go to trial later. Lew, of Santa Clara, Calif., was a nephew of U.S. Rep. Judy Chu, D-Calif., who has called for congressional hearings on the military's efforts to prevent hazing. "This is a call for justice," Chu said at a press conference in Washington on Thursday. "Too many patriotic young people, who only want to serve our country, are being harmed." She also condemned Jacoby's sentence as "a slap in the face," noting he'll continue to serve in the Marine Corps because he wasn't discharged. In April, the squad was assigned to a small patrol base in a remote part of Helmand province where the U.S. trying to disrupt Taliban drug and weapons trafficking. By April 2, Lew had fallen asleep four times while either on patrol or watch duty in his 10 days at the base. His leaders referred him up the chain of command for punishment and took him off patrols so he could get more rest so he wouldn't fall asleep. A command investigation report on the incident said Johns, after discovering that Lew had dozed again, told other fellow lance corporals that "peers should correct peers." At about 11 p.m., he woke up another Marine who was due to relieve Lew two hours later and had him take over the job early. Johns also ordered Lew to dig a foxhole deep enough for him to stand in, so he would stay awake while on watch. The violence escalated after Johns went to sleep. Jacoby admitted in his court martial that he punched and kicked Lew, saying he was frustrated that the fellow Marine repeatedly fell asleep while on watch. He was also upset that Lew spoke to him disrespectfully. The third Marine, Lance Cpl. Carlos Orozco III allegedly put his foot on Lew's back, ordered Lew to do push-ups, side planks and poured sand into Lew's face. Orozco has been charged with assault, humiliating Lew, and cruelty and maltreatment. His court martial is pending.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 01:56:58 AM »
sleeping on guard duty is a no-no.
I found that doing your job results in ZERO hazing incidents.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 03:22:39 AM »
  The perp is lucky he wasn't treated as such miscreants have been treated historically.  Sleeping on guard duty in a combat situation is a good way to get a general courts-martial, which historically could even result in a firing squad.  Sleeping on guard duty in a combat situation, puts everyone in the unit in mortal danger and almost SCREAMS for major punishment, rather than a mild butt-whipping such as he got. His congress-person aunt ought to butt-out and be grateful he didn't face a firing squad or meet his demise along with troops depending upon him to give them competent sentry duty.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline 351 power

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 04:05:31 AM »
just curious but why wouldn't the soldier who fell asleep simply be discharged?
every day is a gift. use it well

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Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 04:19:43 AM »
351;
  That is too simple...it's like saying..Why doesn't the bank robber just give the money back ?  Or why doesn't the rapist just say he is sorry ?
  Not quite that simple, the man has committed a terrible crime..he could have gotten his whole unit wiped out !  In war time, dereliction of duty can easily get people killed..sometimes whole units.  Evidently, this bird did not fall asleep just once but he obviously made a habit of it ! 
   If I am on guard duty, I have been given what is basically a "sacred trust" to be alert and not a slacker.  As a fellow trooper I have a clear right to expect the same of all others who are posted guard.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline bilmac

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 04:34:25 AM »
I can't believe the corps response to this, they have already found the cpl guilty. Undoubtedly they are playing politics. Lew should have at least been given a dishonerable. All that takes time these days. So what do you do with him in the meantime? Pulling guard is a life and death duty.

Offline 351 power

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 05:26:09 AM »
i understand and agree ironglow. i'm just surprised that the soldier wasn't imediately sent out of service. it was an ongoing danger and it could have avoided the whole situation if he was disciplined with a court martial first time
every day is a gift. use it well

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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 12:24:56 PM »
i understand and agree ironglow. i'm just surprised that the soldier wasn't imediately sent out of service. it was an ongoing danger and it could have avoided the whole situation if he was disciplined with a court martial first time

LOL!!!! I thought everyone understood the thinking behind this! The military is an arm of the government. The government NEVER takes care of "the problem". They ignore and/or procrastinate until someone else tries to deal with it. Then they blame the ones who actually try to fix it. Nothing new there! Look at the whole illegal immigrant situation for further examples of "government dealing with problems"!
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 05:59:28 PM »
  Historically, the government kept it's nose out of the military, leaving the details to those who knew how it works..Field grade officers etc.  I said 'historically', because this was true up through WW2..but then "never served" politicians started sticking their noses in..and went for a "draw" or worse..
  With that political interfereing..since WW2 we haven't had a single, clear victory..with one exception..the first Gulf war..
 
  Bush 41 (a veteran) was smart enough not to interfere in regular operations of the military..  He just gave Gen Schwartzkopf his orders..then stepped out of the way.  The result was a clear cut smashing of the 4th most powerful military in the world...despite the dire predictions of an illogical national media.
 
  Moral of the story..when the government messes with the military..they invariably mess up !!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline bilmac

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 05:40:11 AM »
Like forcing gender equality and accepting openly gays


Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 05:51:18 AM »
Like forcing gender equality and accepting openly gays
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  Right you are, Bilmac !  The "social engineering" crowd (most of whom never served) have done serious injury to our military..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Nuke41

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 08:39:23 AM »
If there wasn’t anything medically wrong with him the unit was stuck with him.  Hole digging is a great motivational tool, I used to do it all the time, even in garrison.  When someone did something stupid the legal office wanted you to issue and Article 15 and punish them that way, I usually called them into my office, gave them a shovel and told them to dig a hole outside the orderly room.  Other than bathroom breaks and 10 minutes for chow I’d have them dig dawn until dusk.  That period of reflection was almost always the only time I ever had to make my point.

Offline 351 power

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 10:41:02 AM »
thanks nuke41. that explains situation and the process clearly
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Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 12:51:14 PM »
If there wasn’t anything medically wrong with him the unit was stuck with him.  Hole digging is a great motivational tool, I used to do it all the time, even in garrison.  When someone did something stupid the legal office wanted you to issue and Article 15 and punish them that way, I usually called them into my office, gave them a shovel and told them to dig a hole outside the orderly room.  Other than bathroom breaks and 10 minutes for chow I’d have them dig dawn until dusk.  That period of reflection was almost always the only time I ever had to make my point.
Unfortunately, I can attest to the effectiveness of hole digging.   :-[
BTW, you forgot to mention the filling in the hole part. ;D
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Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 01:26:12 PM »
   Wasn't there also a case involving an Army Private and similar circumstances?  IIRC, that one also involved excessive physical use of force, by his NCO's and an Officer (I think it was a LT).  This kid, isn't related to anyone of importance, but the Army is still prosecuting the NCO's and the LT..  Charges and specifications against the NCO's & LT, are very similar, and include failure to properly supervise (not sure, if those were the exact charges). 

  Both kids were of Asian heritage, are they the new "n*****s"?  I am with holding any judgement on these cases, until they are finalized.  It sort of reminds me of the racial problems the military had "back in the day", when the military was segregated.  Things like this happened, until President Truman (who did serve in the military), integrated the services.  I usually agree with IG, but in this instance, I have to disagree with IG on his statement:

  Historically, the government kept it's nose out of the military, leaving the details to those who knew how it works..Field grade officers etc.  I said 'historically', because this was true up through WW2..but then "never served" politicians started sticking their noses in..and went for a "draw" or worse..
  With that political interfereing..since WW2 we haven't had a single, clear victory..with one exception..the first Gulf war..
 
  Bush 41 (a veteran) was smart enough not to interfere in regular operations of the military..  He just gave Gen Schwartzkopf his orders..then stepped out of the way.  The result was a clear cut smashing of the 4th most powerful military in the world...despite the dire predictions of an illogical national media.
 
  Moral of the story..when the government messes with the military..they invariably mess up !!

I personally think that the integration of the services, was the best thing that happened to the military.
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline bilmac

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 03:16:56 PM »
If I remember my history the military was moving along doing a pretty good job integrating blacks after the war, in fact it was kind of leading the way for the country.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 04:34:02 PM »
If there wasn’t anything medically wrong with him the unit was stuck with him.  Hole digging is a great motivational tool, I used to do it all the time, even in garrison.  When someone did something stupid the legal office wanted you to issue and Article 15 and punish them that way, I usually called them into my office, gave them a shovel and told them to dig a hole outside the orderly room.  Other than bathroom breaks and 10 minutes for chow I’d have them dig dawn until dusk.  That period of reflection was almost always the only time I ever had to make my point.
Unfortunately, I can attest to the effectiveness of hole digging.   :-[
BTW, you forgot to mention the filling in the hole part. ;D
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  And don't forget to place the sand flea or cigarette butt in the bottom ofd the hole before you fill it, or you may have to dig it again.. ;)   ;D
 
  I didn't consider the integration thing, it was already accomplished when I served.  Actually, I assumed the military did the integration thing on their own....
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 02:31:16 AM »
Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
read the OP. It doesn't seem that shirking is being defended.. but bad behavior is being prosecuted, as it should be. Mr Lew is DEAD, which I think is pretty grim and something to be mourned. And it looks like some of the Marines may have behaved badly, and the chain of USMC is taking care of that.  I think the USMC has an interest in discouraging bad behavior towards their members, and in avoiding losing men to suicide. No proof that Mr. Lew committed suicide because of the beating and abuse,  but it's a fair inference and he's dead. Maybe he should have just shot the S.O.B. who assaulted him. The UCMJ will be in there somewhere.


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Marine-Accused-of-Hazing-Harry-Lew-Escapes-Most-Serious-Charges-138059158.html


Quote
A criminal investigation said Jacoby and fellow Marines Benjamin Johns and  Carlos Orozco beat Lew several times and at one point demanded Lew to perform various physical tasks as punishment and would "stomp down" on Lew's back and legs if he failed to do an exercise properly.
"Towards the end of the physical training," the criminal investigation determined, "a sandbag broke open at which point lance corporal [redacted] picked it up and poured the contents on Lew's chest and face as he lay with his back to the ground."   Then Lew's fellow lance corporals  "kicked dirt on Lew, kicked him in the back of the helmet, punched him in the back of his helmet with a force that cut [his attacker's] knuckle." 
Charges filed indicate Jacoby was the man who attacked Lew from behind. At some point, a fellow marine stepped in to stop the attack, saying he  didn't "want it on his conscience if Lew killed himself."
Lew then did commit suicide, by firing his machine gun into his mouth. He wrote on his arm "may hate me now, but in the long run this was the right choice I'm sorry my mom deserves the truth."

Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 06:47:14 AM »
 While as a plt sgt i never would abide with beating anyone or doing any permanent harm...and punching a helmet is likely to hurt the puncher more than the punchee.
  In a case of sleeping on guard duty, especially where the guy seems to have made a habit of it..almost demands strenuous correction, and calisthenics..6X6s to bury a bug, pushups..perhaps with a hand or foot on their back, hgolding a weight overhead at a 45 degree angle until he drops..  This was a regular practicxe in the Corps and the "brown boot" Army and enforced the idea of discipline.
   Unfortunately, today's PC & social experiments in the military, are ruling out the old-time discipline builders.
 
  Sleeping on guard duty is one of the most egregious crimes a soldier can perpetrate.. he can get a whole unit wiped out !!!
 
  The guy committed suicide..perhaps he had a character weakness and perhaps he should have been "weeded out" long before things got to that point..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »
While as a plt sgt i never would abide with beating anyone or doing any permanent harm...and punching a helmet is likely to hurt the puncher more than the punchee.
  In a case of sleeping on guard duty, especially where the guy seems to have made a habit of it..almost demands strenuous correction, and calisthenics..6X6s to bury a bug, pushups..perhaps with a hand or foot on their back, hgolding a weight overhead at a 45 degree angle until he drops..  This was a regular practicxe in the Corps and the "brown boot" Army and enforced the idea of discipline.
   Unfortunately, today's PC & social experiments in the military, are ruling out the old-time discipline builders.
 
  Sleeping on guard duty is one of the most egregious crimes a soldier can perpetrate.. he can get a whole unit wiped out !!!
 
  The guy committed suicide..perhaps he had a character weakness and perhaps he should have been "weeded out" long before things got to that point..






Could be the guy couldn't help falling asleep. He could have been suffering from Narcolepsy...A chronic sleep disorder!

If I were a platoon leader or any other person in charge, I wouldn't put such a person on guard duty in a hostile combat zone.Some people for various reasons are unfit for military duty.

While sleeping on guard duty, especially during combat is a bad thing. So is placing someone like them, in that position even worse IMO! Not saying these Marines should be held responsible for him taking his own life!
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 10:19:45 AM »
While as a plt sgt i never would abide with beating anyone or doing any permanent harm...and punching a helmet is likely to hurt the puncher more than the punchee.
  In a case of sleeping on guard duty, especially where the guy seems to have made a habit of it..almost demands strenuous correction, and calisthenics..6X6s to bury a bug, pushups..perhaps with a hand or foot on their back, hgolding a weight overhead at a 45 degree angle until he drops..  This was a regular practicxe in the Corps and the "brown boot" Army and enforced the idea of discipline.
   Unfortunately, today's PC & social experiments in the military, are ruling out the old-time discipline builders.
 
  Sleeping on guard duty is one of the most egregious crimes a soldier can perpetrate.. he can get a whole unit wiped out !!!
 
  The guy committed suicide..perhaps he had a character weakness and perhaps he should have been "weeded out" long before things got to that point..






Could be the guy couldn't help falling asleep. He could have been suffering from Narcolepsy...A chronic sleep disorder!

If I were a platoon leader or any other person in charge, I wouldn't put such a person on guard duty in a hostile combat zone.Some people for various reasons are unfit for military duty.

While sleeping on guard duty, especially during combat is a bad thing. So is placing someone like them, in that position even worse IMO! Not saying these Marines should be held responsible for him taking his own life!
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
  Indeed, if the guy was suffering from narcolepsy, it would have been obvious to all in a very obvious way.  We once had a fellow at Ft Hood who was affected with narcolepsy; he would fall asleep at the most inopportune times, not just on guard duty.  One time seated at chow, he nearly went face first into his food tray !  I think we can assume narcolepsy was not a problem, especially since it was not even mentioned in the news article.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline bilmac

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2012, 11:06:32 AM »
You would think that narcalepsy would be a physical disability that would disqualify you from service. From the time I entered the Army I never got enough sleep. In fact I went through college and never had a falling to sleep in class problem. But when the Army got me they taught me how. Probably boreing instructors teaching at a 2d grade level as much as never getting a full night. I even fell asleep standing up once.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2012, 11:46:02 AM »
Quote
Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..

I think it far more disgusting that the young man is dead, and may have been pushed in that direction by his fellow marines.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »
Quote
Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..

I think it far more disgusting that the young man is dead, and may have been pushed in that direction by his fellow marines.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
   ...His choice...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Lon371

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2012, 12:29:42 PM »
Quote
Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..

I think it far more disgusting that the young man is dead, and may have been pushed in that direction by his fellow marines.


 It is to bad he was weak and took his own life. Maybe it would have been better that while he was sleeping, the unit could have all been killed. Then he would have been the hero for being the only survivor?
 
 It is also very sad that the politics has to get involved. Its just another way for them to make the military look bad, so we can cut it down to size and not feel guilty.

Lonny

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Absolutely disgusting, a shirker defended..
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 02:57:22 PM »
It is to bad he was weak and took his own life. Maybe it would have been better that while he was sleeping, the unit could have all been killed.


You'll have to pardon me for saying so, but... that's a really bizarre perspective. Do you view your scenario as the natural alternative to the abuse the kid suffered at the hands of fellow marines, before he killed himself?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.