Protect phone from illeagal police search?

[briarpatch]

I see where the police are taking cell phones and downloading them when they stop people. Whether I have anything to hide or not I dont want my info in the hands of crooks. If they download it illegally they are crooks. The Constitution says it is illeagal therefore not debatable.
My question is, how can we protect them, other than leave them at home?

[yellowtail3]

Need some kind of app which can lock the phone and encrypt all info, at touch of a hardware button... then they'll have to force you to give them the password.


They might succeed, since they have powers of arrest and tazers... "This can go the easy way or the hard way, Mr Yellowtail, which do you want, boy?" or sumsuch.

[Conan The Librarian]

I disagree with the premise. All searches are legal because the 4th amendment is so meaningless today that any kind of search can be made legal very easily, and without regard to what would normally be considered "human rights".

[jlwilliams]

Wow!  This is news to me.
 
 Are they downloading "suspect's" phone info onto their own phones?  Onto a laptop?  I'm a little technologicly behind the curve, so please explain it a little more about the nuts and bolts of this.  Any links or pointers toward print articles?  This is something I'd like to know more about.
 
  My first reaction is that if this is happening and you don't want your phone info being mined, then you need to hide your phone while in your vehicle.  Maybe put it into a locked box like you might do with sensitive doccuments or a handgun (if you are driving somewhere that you aren't allowed to carry on your person).  Another question that pops up is 'what info are they mining?'  What do people keep on their phones?  All they could get off mine is calls received, sent and some pictures.  I can see why you might not want that to be passed around but I imagine that the more tech savvy younger types might have much more on their phones.  Like what?  I don't know and I hope someone will post on that.
 
 Another aproach may be to get a simple phone that doesn't store anything you might not want seen.
 
  I know some will think "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".  I can't say strongly enough how much I disagree with that.  First, it's a backwards way of looking at it. " If you have done nothing wrong, why should you be treated like a criminal?" is closer to my way of thinking.  Second, you just don't know how one piece of information fits with another.  Did you recieve a call from someone who lives with someone who unknown to either of you is involved in something you don't want anything to do with?  Wlould having phone calls to or from that number somehow put you into a situation you don't belong in?  Maybe, but maybe not if your phone's information isn't downloaded into a database that ferrets this sort of thing out.    This is all part of why I believe that you should never, never concent to a search of any kind by law enforcement.  If they have a real reason to search they don't need my permission.  If they ask my permission, the answer is "No."  Declining concent to a search doen't guarantee that they won't rip my vehicle apart but it does mean that if they do they did it against my wishes.  Another reason is that I stand to gain nothing by concenting to a search.  Ever.  I don't have such a guilty concience that I feel I should lay myself open to prove what an innocent guy I am.  If I consent to a search then maybe they find something left by anohter (friend, past owner of the car/house, whatever) and now I own it.  The police stand to gain evidence to be used against me, I stand only to lose in the event they find some piece of something that I could be charged with.  Allowing your phone to be searched is no different than allowing any other property to be searched.  Answering "a few friendly questions" is a sucker's bet and can only lead to putting your neck into someone elses noose.
 
  This is something startling.  I'll stay tuned to this thread.

[rockbilly]

I think the mentality of most cops today is, “I’m da man, I can intimidate the hell out of anyone I wish to.”

I was stopped a while back and after taking my drivers license and CCW permit the first question was, “where are you coming from.”  I didn’t answer since I thought it was none of his business, from his reaction I thought he was going to pull me out of the car and beat the heck out of me.  He then asked, “Where you going, again I didn’t answer.  He asked me to step out of the truck and asked where my gun was located, I informed him it was on the seat of the truck, I thought he was about to put the cuffs on me when I ask why the questions were important or had any bearing on his stopping me.  I informed him that I was well aware of my rights and knew I did not have to answer the questions; he then asked if I would give him permission to search the truck.  I told asked, “Why?”  He then informed me that he was calling for a dog to check the vehicle out since he thought I was hiding something, I told him to go for it.  About 15 minutes elapsed while waiting for the dog, when it arrived he went around the vehicle, checked in side and out, then said, “He’s clean.”

He informed me that I was speeding, 57mph in a 55 zone, I told to either write the ticket or let me go, he wrote me a warning and tried to chew my butt for not answering his questions, I told him we can talk to my attorney in court if you really think you have the right to ask and that I have to answer, he walked away, got in his car and left

The point is, many of these “Rambo” cops push to the max in an attempt to build cases for themselves, when, in fact, many time they act in an illegal manner to build their case.

Funny, I had been to Church and was on my way home, I could have saved time by saying that but who wants to make a smart asses job easy.

[briarpatch]

The cops have had a little trouble forcing someone to give them the password, it is determined to be incriminating ones self. Dont mean much but it is all we have now.
The equipment they use to extract the phone info is able to bypass password protection. My guess but dont know is that the phone makers incorporate the feature.
If you hide a phone and are asked if you have one. you say no. that is a lie to the cops which is illeagal. They can lie to you but you cannot lie to them.
Conan that is about right.

[guzzijohn]

After looking at several sites here is how it is suppose to work:
An officer can take and dump information from a phone without a warrant if the officer determines probable cause that that the phone is related to the crime. For example, a vehicle accident that may have been caused by one of the drivers using their phone at the time. An officer could probably make a case in a drug related arrest as the phone will probably have dealer contact info, etc. Otherwise the officer must have consent or a warrant.


The FBI and NSA can obtain phone records basically whenever they want without warrant under the Patriot Act (thanks GW Bush).
GuzziJohn

[briarpatch]

Guzzy they have been downloading in Michigan and Cal. for minor traffic stops. Some dept. download from all stops regardless. The Ucla asked for clarification through the information act and was told for 600,000 dollars they would comply.
Cal. passed a law to forbid it but jerry brown vetoed the bill.

[guzzijohn]

briarpatch,
You are quite correct, that is why I said "this is how it is suppose to work". UCLA is trying to get around having to pay a huge sum for the information. Just have to wait and see what happens. INHO there should be clear probable cause or a warrant.
GuzziJohn

[BUGEYE]

since we all carry phones,  how could a cop have probable cause, unless he overheard a conversation about a crime.

[jlwilliams]

If you hide a phone and are asked if you have one. you say no. that is a lie to the cops which is illeagal. They can lie to you but you cannot lie to them.

  That is true.  I think if I had a hidden phone and was asked the only defense would be to remain silent.  Preferably remain silent before the questions are asked.  "I'm a private kind of guy.  I don't answer questions unless compelled by law.  Am I free to go?"
 
  Rockbilly, when you declined to answer the questions did you just say nothing or did you verbally tell him you were not going to answer?  IMO the only reason to ask where you are going to and coming from is to fish for some possable arrestable offense.  Frankly it's irrlevant if someone is coming home from church, coming home from their extra marital affair or even if they are coming home from a crack house.  If you are pulled over for speeding, the speeding is the issue.  Asking a few 'friendly questions' is just a way of fishing for that tell-tale tidbit that maybe you are coming home from a crack house.  I'm not, so bugger off.
 
  Honestly I see it as reasonable for them to dig into a suspect's phone in many cases.  Where I see it as going off the track is when you get pulled over and they want to know everybody you talk to.  I just don't see the public interest being served by that in any way.  If someone has been arrested and that persons contacts and activities are pertinant to the case (drugs, organized crime, etc) then by all means that person't phone is evidence just like anything else in their posession at the time of the arrest.  Fishing is a whole different matter.
 
  Just what do they hope to learn from downloading the phone data from random traffic stops?  Not only do I not see how the public interest is served, I don't see how policing is helped by it.  What do these records tell them?  Do they create a network of 'who knows who' so they can link the known 'bad guys' to the 'bad guys' they don;t yet know about which is everybody according to more than one cop I know.  The theory that "everybody is a scumbag, some just haven't been caught" is fairly prevalent.  Does anybody know just what they hope to learn from this mountain of seemingly worthless information?

[powderman]

My question is, how can we protect them, other than leave them at home?

 
BRIARPATCH. Uh, don't do anything to get stopped for?? POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

I think the mentality of most cops today is, “I’m da man, I can intimidate the hell out of anyone I wish to.”

Yep.

I was stopped a while back and after taking my drivers license and CCW permit the first question was, “where are you coming from.”

That's meant to establish authority, get you to answer, the idea being... once you answer a couple (seemingly innocuous?) questions, you'll keep answer, and give them permission to search your car.

... he then asked if I would give him permission to search the truck.  I told asked, “Why?”  He then informed me that he was calling for a dog to check the vehicle out since he thought I was hiding something, I told him to go for it.

He was hoping you might have some weed, and that the dept was going score some Seizure Booty (kind of like what pirates/privateers used to do). That's what that was about.

[Conan The Librarian]

You really should get some lessons on what to say to police. You do not need to elaborate on anything. Just say something like."i realizre you are just doing your job, but I can't consent to a search without a warrant. Am I under arrest, or am I free to go?" if they press on, say practically nothing except the "am I under arrest or am I free to go" part. They will have to decide because they are procedurally limited.


Here is why: if, for example, you bought your car used or otherwise have not had sole possession of your car, somebody may have lost some drugs in it. If you consent to a search, and they find something, then you are screwed.

[Cuts Crooked]

I see where the police are taking cell phones and downloading them when they stop people.

Uh.......WHERE did "see" this?

[blind ear]

My question is, how can we protect them, other than leave them at home?

 
BRIARPATCH. Uh, don't do anything to get stopped for?? POWDERMAN. 

57 in a 55 speed zone is up for debate. ear

[Graybeard]

The only thing they'd be able to determine from my cell phone is how many hours and minutes of talk time I have. I have no contacts list and pretty much no one but Matt and Faye know my cell phone number. I never even bother to turn it on unless I need to make a call which is rare so they don't bother calling me since both know my phone won't be on anyway.

My phone is a dumb phone not a smart one doesn't even have GPS.

[Cuts Crooked]

If you hide a phone and are asked if you have one. you say no. that is a lie to the cops which is illeagal. They can lie to you but you cannot lie to them.

Uh....this only applies to federal officers or congressional investigators, insofar as I know. You should check your local/state laws though.
 
 

[briarpatch]

Powderman you ever been stopped and told your tag light was out and when you wanted to see they tell you wait until they leave and they leave, you look and its not out.
They look in your car with a light and sniff like a dog with their head in the window.
If not maybe your time is coming, just hope it not Michigan or cal. they will down load your phone and lap top.


Cutscrooked, use google.

[briarpatch]

If you dont mind your phone being downloaded along with family members when they are out, this also includes laptops and other electronics,      RAISE your hand.

[briarpatch]

Conan one problem with the question, am I free to go? the cops will respond, We have the right to detain you. He did not say you were under arrest he only said we have the right to detain you. Now what do you do? Try to walk off and you will get the lighting rod up the yazoo and arrested for exercising your right. Its a game nothing less.

[mcwoodduck]

I see where the police are taking cell phones and downloading them when they stop people. Whether I have anything to hide or not I dont want my info in the hands of crooks. If they download it illegally they are crooks. The Constitution says it is illeagal therefore not debatable.
My question is, how can we protect them, other than leave them at home?

From what I understand you need to be arrested for something before the police can conficate your phone.  From what I understand it also needs to be part of the criminal activity.  Drugs for example, the phone would be used in the criminal activity.  especally burner phones.
Much like they are not allowed to search your car, but if they arrest you and impound the car they inventory the contents.
I think it is a 5th amendment issue, In the commie state of CA we are not allowed to use the phone unless it is hands free.  Also they have stated that texting or emailing in the car is verboten.  Pulling over is OK but stopped at a light is not.  Can your phone be used to issue you tickets, even if you are pulled over and text or e-mail and a few seconds later are pulled over for what ever , can the fact that you e-mailed a few minutes earlier or made a call.  Yes dialing the phone is illegal in CA.  You touched it to hit send.
 

[yellowtail3]

In 2011 I worked a few months in California. My lic expired expired, I got pulled over in one of those 'checkpoint' fishing expeditions. They said since my DL was expired, they were going to impound my car.  I told them I needed to get my cash - I had several thousand in an envelope - that they wouldn't let me retrieve it, and instead searched car without my consent as they wrote me a ticket. I told them right where the envelope was. The car was full of stuff - I'd driven 2500 miles, didn't unpack everything - and those jerks just tore it apart, made a mess of the interior - pulled out everything from below all the seats, didn't put anything back. They would not let me near the car as three of them rifled my belongings. They found my cash, alright, and handed me the envelope, taking pains to tell me they'd not rifled through it. Well... by my reckoning, it was a few hundred dollar bills short. I'm not making this up. This was in West Covina, or near it.

[magooch]

So did you file charges against the cops for stealing your cash?  If not, why not?  If they damaged your vehicle, did you file for reparations?
 
This thread gives me pause to reflect on my experience with the fuzz over my lifetime.  I'd have to say it is about 50/50.  I can't recall ever doing anything that would, or should have brought down the heavy hand of the law on me, but there were a few incidences where it was close.  I have had to explain myself a few times to a judge and once I actually had to pay a $50 fine, which could have been a lot more.  The irony has always been that I potentially caught the most grief for doing absolutely nothing that should have brought more than a brief discussion with a cop.
 
I have often had the belief that some of the cops I've had encounters with, would rather not deal with real offenders; it's probably a lot messier.  Anyway, I'm like Bill; the only time my cell phone is on is when I need to make a call.  However, if for some unknown reason a policeman were to try to check my phone, I believe I would make an issue of it, if for no other reason, I don't trust 50% of them.

[SHOOTALL]

have two phones  hide one , let um scan the other 
 
If ya drive a GM product they can just listen in with on star , you know the big brother channel to see if you are talking on your cell.

[Cuts Crooked]

You touched it to hit send.
 

Only if yer textin'.   (my phone has a voice activation/recognition feature)

[SHOOTALL]

You touched it to hit send.
 

Only if yer textin'.   (my phone has a voice activation/recognition feature)

mine also one contact is "call mooch" borrows everything

[Blackhawker]

My question is, how can we protect them, other than leave them at home?

The world would be a much better place if everyone would just leave them at home!

[SHOOTALL]

so what happens when the cop finds his wifes # in your phone 

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Shootall:
"so what happens when the cop finds his wifes # in your phone  "


Or even worse, his daughter along with all the dirty texts and pictures!
GuzziJohn