Author Topic: What Powder for .358 WIN? (Read 1507 times)

tacotime · « **on:** February 07, 2012, 02:49:48 AM »

Going to use the Speer 220 grain .358 in a 16.5 inch barrel bolt gun.

I have IMR powders plus Varget and H322. Speer and Lyman both list 4064 and 3031, but don't both list any others I have available. I had expected to use 4320, but it was only listed in one manual. Not that that proves anything, except for starters I might as well use a powder known to both manuals as good. Lyman shows 4064 as its accuracy load for .358.

Any powder guidance on getting a good consistent load quickly for the .358?

Thanks.

yooper77 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:04:13 AM »

I can only recommend Hodgdon which is the power manufacture for all the powders you list. Go to the link below for 358 Winchester hand loading data.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

yooper77

cwlongshot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:15:17 AM »

There is allot of powder choices!! I like 4320, but have used 4064,3031 & AA2460. But there are a bunch more!! 4895, 748 are but a few...

I can look at my manuel's. and see what I have.

CW

tacotime · « **Reply #3 on:** February 07, 2012, 05:32:40 AM »

No shortage of powder choices but I'm going to try and use the ones I have, and I am hoping that there will be a consensus about a particular powder for the .358 with the 220 gr. from the GBO bank of knowledge and experience...

Probably not going to go over 2400fps.

I began by thinking 4320 because of good results with the same bullet in the .350 Rem., but 4320 was not listed in both my manuals... and of course the .358 is not the .350.

Hawks mentions 3031, but not 4320 like he does for the .350.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2012, 06:26:54 AM »

This caliber has been around for some time (late '50's) I have some older manuals if I can I'll scan and send them to you.

CW

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2012, 08:00:23 AM »

Being a Winchester cartridge and more then likely was loaded with Ball Powder I would try Win 748

Starting load for the 220 gr Speer is 47.5 gr to a Max. of 53.0 gr.

With a 24" barrel this load clocked at 2499 fps as listed on page 267 in Lyman's 48th Edition.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:40:49 AM »

Here is what I found..

Hornady manuel:

Hodgdon manuel:

Speer Manuel

tacotime · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:26:47 PM »

Excellent info! More than anyone could ask for... thanks!

I note that the range of loads in the Speer manual has dropped several grains, I suppose due to the lawyers.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:44:01 PM »

One manuel was from '66 or '67, another '70 and still others mid '80's. If you need exact publishing dates or more specs LMK.

Happy to help,
CW

max1138 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:24:02 PM »

lyman 49th lists varget start at 47gr for 2278fps/ max 52 grains at 2514fps out of a 24"pressure barrel.
your gonna lose some of that maybe 150fps with the short tube, bigger bores in smaller cases dont drop as much as an overbore magnum.
hodgson lists varget 46-50c for the 220 topping out at 2445fps

Ive listed varget because you have it on hand and it gives good results in 308 based cases.

if thats not enough give ramshot a call, I remember someone here (336sc?) getting some impressive numbers with a short barrel whelen and TAC, the data isnt online for a 358 but theres lots of stuff they havent published thats only a call away.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2012, 02:58:26 AM »

Quote from: max1138 on February 07, 2012, 09:24:02 PM

if thats not enough give ramshot a call, I remember someone here (336sc?) getting some impressive numbers with a short barrel whelen and TAC, the data isnt online for a 358 but theres lots of stuff they havent published thats only a call away.

1!

A member was telling me about TAC and the 358. Since I get real hinky when I have to compress powder, just one of my phobias...

, I tried it. I really like TAC for the 358; at least with 200 gr. bullets.

tacotime · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2012, 03:51:39 AM »

Since time was short I went ahead and loaded some starter loads with 4064 and 3031. But I did not expect that right away, even with the starting loads, the WW case is pretty much full. After seating the bullet, no powder movement can be heard in the shell. Not sure if that really qualifies as "compressed". The manual with WW cases shows only the max load is compressed and the max load is 5 grains more than the "full" case I started with. Odd? (Using RCBS 750 scale, checked good against a 505 beam scale a few weeks ago).

Also I find that the Speer 220 grain, when seated to the COAL in the Speer manual of 2.68in, leaves the entire cannelure just outside the neck mouth. Would Speer specify a load that leaves the cannelure completely exposed on their own bullet?

My understanding is that I will need to seat deeper to get the crimp in the cannelure for these rounds to be used in a light carbine bolt gun for hunting, to prevent bullet slippage. Yes? I'll use the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

So the combination of a seemingly full case and deeper bullet seating that the manual, leaves me a little uneasy this morning...

AtlLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:16:31 AM »

I tell ya, I had a case full with 3031!

I had to settle the powder before I seated the bullet. 180 gr Speers BTW. 'course they shot well enough to kill a deer this year, but with my rifle's short throat I can't use anything much heavier. $:-\$

Like I said, TAC gives me more peace of mind in that respect.

tacotime · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2012, 03:04:49 PM »

The issue about the COL length already short with the cannelure still out of the neck mouth bugs me bad.

The COL now is about 2.6 and the manual calls for 2.68.

I guess I would have to seat deeper by about 2/3 or 3/4 the width of the cannelure itself, to get the case mouth about 3/4 over the cannelure for crimping. That will put me about 2.56 in. Are we worried?

I wonder if Speer will answer the phone if I call?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2012, 03:52:09 PM »

Why is it you feel crimping is required? (In this case, its not)

In my CF rifles I have very few that will be seated to the canalure... Just tonight I loaded 40, 25-35 Winchesters... I seat them to be .020 off the rifling, in my chamber that's a goodly amount of the 117g RN bullet out of the case. These are for a H&R SS rifle.

CW

tacotime · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:01:59 PM »

Did you mean crimping is not needed in this instance?

The rounds will be used in a lightweight carbine bolt gun, so there will be rounds in the magazine when it is fired. Since the .358 is known for some recoil and more yet with the light rifle, I was thinking the rounds should be crimped. No?

max1138 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2012, 06:00:03 PM »

tacotime, that bullet was created especially for the 356win with the cannelure set to allow feeding thru the lever actions limited legenth,thats why it has that flat point on for feeding in a tube mag. you can of course set it to any legenth you need with the lee crimp die. I would run it out to .0010 off the lands and start there if your magazine will allow it, itll give you a little more powder space if you need it to make the velocity you want and in its not needed itll lower the pressure a bit or you can set it back to see where it shoots better. and I would crimp it in place if its going in a magazine

edit I just took out the same 220's to play with a bit in my whelen to make the lands at 3.3520 bullet is only seated about 0.161 giving a .010 jump with a lot exposed below the cannelure Ill have to set a lot deeper to make the recommended one bullet diameter seating depth but will still have .090 exposed below the cannelure. as long as I can make the one diameter seating depth its not a problem in a long throated single shot. If I were more sure of my seating die getting it lined up right with only.160 in the case I would go with that but I dont have a runout gauge to check so ill go with the one diameter depth to be sure and have .197 jump to the lands

336SC · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2012, 01:07:34 AM »

tacotime, I've shot several thousand rounds from my three .358 Win's with magazines, and never once crimped a bullet. That said, the
powder I'm using is H322 for 2500fps with a 200gr projectile. I've tested TAC just for giggles and was amazed at the velocites obtained. Out of my Ruger 22" barreled Hawkeye I was able to obtain 2671fps with a HDY 200gr RN and 2404fps with a HDY 250gr
RN. Both loads exceeded the factory loads I have in .35 Whelen. I would NOT recommend TAC in your 16" barreled rifle, due to EXTREME muzzle flash you would be experiencing. You might set the forest ablaze! Even if TAC has a flash suppresent in it's make
up, you would still be seeing a lot of unburned powder in the air with a 16" barrrel.
The loads using TAC powder were worked up to from an article in "Handloader" magazine written by John Barsness.
336SC

tacotime · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:24:14 AM »

Conflicting info... I'm pretty sure the Speer manual says that a bullet without a cannelure should not be crimped due to possible jacket damage, so I would assume that applies to trying to crimp in a spot outside the cannelure even if there is one. Lee says hunting and critical ammo should always be crimped, and that the Lee Factory Crimp will crimp even if there is no cannelure, but does not mention jacket damage. I had been told a number fo times that bullets in magazines with significant recoil should be crimped. Someone else said they always crimp bullets, even in single shots, while another said he never crimps bullets in them...

So, are we saying that the bullet should be crimped because of the magazine, even if out of the cannelure, with the Lee factory crimp die?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2012, 03:12:32 AM »

Personally speaking, I crimp when it's required. That's when loading magnum pistols, tubular mags and heavy (dangerous game) calibers.

Generally speaking bolt guns with box mags do not meet that cryteria. My 375 H&H has not had its bullets move under recoil from contact with the mag.

Proper bullet retention is NOT the sole responsibility of the crimp as the LEE manuel would have you believe.

CW

tacotime · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:36:18 AM »

Then maybe where I went off track was thinking the .358 with the 220gr at about 2,400fps in a light bolt gun would be one of the situations requiring a crimp. I sure would have thought so... and I will say that the same bullet at the same speed out of a .350 Rem does have a little punch on the shoulder. No, not like the bigger boys...

I guess I can simply test the rounds by checking COL of the magazine rounds before firing the first shot, then check again after and see if they are moving. These were neck sized with a Redding neck sizer. The bullets felt pretty tight going in.

Back to the original question... looks like both Lyman and Waters picked 4064 as the accuracy powder for the .358 with 220gr., and it was listed in the Speer manual and others above, so 4064 will be my first try at finding the load for this new rifle and caliber.

Thanks for the guidance!

tacotime · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2012, 08:00:44 AM »

Guess I should have looked at the Speer website along the way. In the FAQ section, the exposed cannelure is addressed, saying they determined a crimp was not needed if the manual calls for a COL that leaves the cannelure exposed outside or covered inside of the mouth. Pretty much what was said by you guys, thanks again.

max1138 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2012, 09:29:23 PM »

tacotime, I found a couple of further references to the 220 speer, seems I was wrong about its origins as a 356 bullet according to this http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=50299.0

and found a good resource at marlinowners regarding performance
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/bullet-tests/5328-35-remington-bullet-performance-part-ii-handloads.html

now we can both try then in our whelens and 358's with a better idea of what to expect.
what the hell im stuck in the house with pneumonia and got nothing else to do or energy to do it.
but I got 250 of em to play with when I can get out

Ill shoot for 2500 it shouldnt take much more than a start load of varget or H4895 to get there.

tacotime · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2012, 03:42:15 AM »

Good info.

I find it surprising that neither the .358 Win. 220gr. nor the .375 H&H 235gr., (the first with a cannelure too far forward to use in the .358 and the second without a cannelure altogether), are considered to not require crimping by Speer. So apparently the recoil level would need to be above these calibers to call for a crimp for recoil bullet holding purposes only.

I think I'll start a broader thread about the need to crimp.

Get well soon...

cwlongshot · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2012, 04:48:04 AM »

Quote from: tacotime on February 10, 2012, 03:42:15 AM

Good info.

I find it surprising that neither the .358 Win. 220gr. nor the .375 H&H 235gr., (the first with a cannelure too far forward to use in the .358 and the second without a cannelure altogether), are considered to not require crimping by Speer. So apparently the recoil level would need to be above these calibers to call for a crimp for recoil bullet holding purposes only.

I think I'll start a broader thread about the need to crimp.

Get well soon...

As I have repeatedly mentioned your expander ball, when properly sized, will also have alot to do with bullet retention!!!! Just because it's what came in your dies does not make it appropriate for all applications. It's up to you as the reloader to adjust and change to meet your specific requirements.

CW

oneoldsap · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:29:18 PM »

I've been shooting the Speer 220 out of my .358 for years . I load 50 Grs. of W-748 , which yields about 2400 FPS and is just devastating on Deer and Moose !