Lets make drugs legal. Great stuff, we can handle it.

[teamnelson]

if someone harms my wife or daughter while using drugs or alcohol, they'd better pray that I don't catch him/her.

What if they were cold sober when they harmed your wife or daughter? Would that make a difference? I know your answer would be no already.


I just wanted to point out the fact that sober or stoned, regardless of substance, the consequences of the action are the same.


Ritalin works on everyone, its a fact. Its the most abused prescription drug on college campuses, even military academies, as it gives everyone greater focus. Since that is true, it is difficult to swallow that an individual has a chemical imbalance requiring Ritalin to correct. If that were correct, then it would only work on those with the imbalance. Again, this is not the case. But as long as the $ is rolling in for Ritalin, and the SSRIs (which have all been proven to be no more effective than plain old talk and time in clinical trials), the powers that be aren't going to say anything.  What we have here is institutional drug abuse, approved by the FDA, promoted by the school and healthcare systems, to profit the pharmaceutical companies. Heck, I just sat a seminar of behavioral health professionals to review current medical evidence concluding that NONE of the medicines presently prescribed to combat veterans with PTSD are any more effective than a placebo. Over an over again, we see that with regular talk therapy, most folks are better off in 2 years, with or without meds. And some who take meds take longer to recover because of issues around the meds. But there's a lot of $ in the meds.


Begs the question then, why are some drugs legal on the basis of medical benefit when there's no science to support the claim, and other drugs are illegal on the basis that they provide no medical benefit. Seems like they're identical scientifically. Where then did we get it in our heads that some drugs are bad, and some are good? They seem to produce the same issues in people.

[BUGEYE]

I have three different pain killers here. I guess they are called legal.
if I buy them on the street corner from the neighborhood dealer, they are illegal.
most drugs have legitimate uses.  also we have let pain clinics become legit drug dealers and most of those should be shut down.
as for ritalin, that is recommended to the parents by some schools for the simple reason that the parents are too sorry to make their kids behave and they are being too disruptive in class.
I don't know how focused it makes a student, all I see are a bunch of little zombies.

[Doublebass73]

Bugeye I usually agree with most all of your posts, and this particular issue of legalizing drugs I used to be 100% against it, but awhile ago, after looking at the issue, I think, why not legalize them. As others have said we have been throwing all kind of tax dollars at it with no results. Not any that we are looking for anyway. I used to dabble in illegal drugs mostly when I was a teenager, mostly pot, and it was pretty easy to acquire, all you needed was money. Hundreds of kids in school smoked it. I remember sitting at concerts where most everyone there was smoking pot. The smoke rising above the crowd was not from cigarettes.
     The point is that anyone that wanted it could get it. Law or no law. I don't know how easy pot is to acquire today, but I figure its just as easy if not easier. Look at how many life destroying drugs are available today. I hear of the number of schools that are plagued with heroin use. Its illegal, harmful, and very addictive, but yet if anyone wants to try it, it appears to be very easy to get, and its being used by kids, and adults regardless of what any rules or laws there are.
    Mans heart is inherently evil. Humans default to immoral, dishonest, and corrupt. The Bible teaches that man can't be good without God. Only through Christ is man able to live a new life, and the new life refers to the opposite of immoral, harmful, evil life. There is no good or evil without a standard. There is no right and wrong without a standard, and Jesus Christ is that standard. I really don't believe any law or rule will fix any immorality, evil, or wrong, but by accepting Christ, and letting Christ live his life through you, immorality, evil, and wrong can be fixed.       

Excellent post DDZ. I was a drug user myself in my teens and early 20's. I had no trouble obtaining them and there wasn't a law on the books that stopped me from doing them. It was only through Christ that I was able to get away from drugs.

Like you said, we've thrown trillions in tax dollars at the problem for the last 40 years and we've seen no measurable results. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[turk762]

TN, I believe alcohol does fall into the same catagory as illegal drugs, but we all know what happens when it was banned. I think people need some kind of a release from stress and life I guess alcohol fits the bill.
 
Now the drugs they give kids to modify behavior, I am way, way against, I would NOT have my kids take any or recommend to anyone.
 
To me drugs that modify behavior just because a kid is hard to deal with, is a NO, NO. We need to implement the good old fashion butt spanking, this worked for thousands of years.
 
Some mentally challenged adults may need mind altering med. to keep them from becoming abusive to others. Other then that I think they need to quit handing the crap out like it is candy.
 
To many people run to the DR office for Phycological drugs, because they are depressed, stressed, ect. I think this is BS, its life life can be a B**tch deal with it.
 
Now that you bring up these drugs I am probly agree with you to a certain degree, I was more focused on the Medical drugs.

[DDZ]

Can anyone find any statistics that show how or if the multi billion dollar drug war is working, or even making any difference at all. 

http://www.sheldensays.com/Drug_war_%20lies.htm

[turk762]

DDZ, the war on drugs is winable, it could easily be won its just that one little thing standing in the way, if it was removed it would be won.  This one little thing if removed or done away with I would be very upset.
 
That one little thing would be the constitution. The right against unreasonable searches and seizure. Secure in papers and effects, yada, yada,yada
 
Drug dealers have the same rights as you and I. Its diffucult to get the evidence needed for a legal search. I know alot of you people say that the cops do it anyway, if they do it unconstitutional and IF CHALLENGED (usually not) it is "fruit from the poisonous tree" (this is a legal term) and is inadmissable in court.
 
 I am comfortable with continueing to fight the war on drugs, rather then give up the rights of us citizens to put a few more dealers in jail.   
 
I dont think it is reasonable to think we could eradicate all drug activity. But I believe we need to keep shooting over thier heads (so to speak) to keep them underground and dodging LE. If we stopped fighting this we would be like Mexico in no time. I say fire away boys. So no its not winable, but controllable to a certain degree.

[BUGEYE]

the penalties for dealing are way too lenient.
drugs ruin individuals and tear families apart.  execute dealers and it will slow the flow of drugs a little.

[turk762]

the penalties for dealing are way too lenient.
drugs ruin individuals and tear families apart.  execute dealers and it will slow the flow of drugs a little.

I agree with you, but many would not and the goverment is supposed to represent all. This is why I say it is probly where it needs to be.

[teamnelson]

the penalties for dealing are way too lenient.
drugs ruin individuals and tear families apart.  execute dealers and it will slow the flow of drugs a little.

"the penalties for selling firearms are way too lenient. guns ruin individuals and tear families apart. execute dealers and it will slow the flow of guns a little." Ironic, isn't it? Same sentence, just different item, and most here would be outraged. But there are millions in the US who would agree with that statement.


"the penalties for selling booze are way too lenient. alcohol ruin individuals and tear families apart. execute bartenders and it will slow the flow of booze a little."


The road to hell is paved with good intentions ... its a good intention to save families, and we're usually most motivated when we have a personal experience on a particular issue (i.e. know a family that was ruined by drugs). But its still the "road to hell" if in our pursuit of saving that one family, we inadvertantly create a system of laws that is inherently lopsided, with no checks or balances, and entirely dependent on everyone else seeing things our particular way.


We need to distinguish ourselves from the left, we need to use the strength of rational discourse and rule of law, and not emotionalism that obfuscates facts, or else we're no different than the left. We must be consistent, we must be the biggest advocate of liberty for all ... especially if that means that others have liberty to do things we oppose. Because in that liberty, a society compromised of the selfish and the selfless can hammer out a social contract by which we can all abide.

[Doublebass73]

TeamNelson,

As always, excellent post!

[nw_hunter]

DDZ, the war on drugs is winable, it could easily be won its just that one little thing standing in the way, if it was removed it would be won.  This one little thing if removed or done away with I would be very upset.
 
That one little thing would be the constitution. The right against unreasonable searches and seizure. Secure in papers and effects, yada, yada,yada
 
Drug dealers have the same rights as you and I. Its diffucult to get the evidence needed for a legal search. I know alot of you people say that the cops do it anyway, if they do it unconstitutional and IF CHALLENGED (usually not) it is "fruit from the poisonous tree" (this is a legal term) and is inadmissable in court.
 
 I am comfortable with continueing to fight the war on drugs, rather then give up the rights of us citizens to put a few more dealers in jail.   
 
I dont think it is reasonable to think we could eradicate all drug activity. But I believe we need to keep shooting over thier heads (so to speak) to keep them underground and dodging LE. If we stopped fighting this we would be like Mexico in no time. I say fire away boys. So no its not winable, but controllable to a certain degree.

Funny! I see the exact opposite!We have strayed from the Constitution by electing these politicians who pay it no heed. This is why the war on drugs is a failure.The corrupt policy makers at the top are profiting from the war on drugs. They feed us sheep with tidbits of crap about a big drug bust once in a while, while allowing thousands more to to flow freely.The federal take over of our daily lives have taken the ability of controlling these problems at home or state level away from us.If we had more Constitution minded, honest leaders like Ron and Rand Paul at state and federal level these practices would diminish.This war on drugs is a complete failure. Proof positive by the cost of money and lives. It's not working.........Why in heavens name continue it?

[yellowtail3]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions ... its a good intention to save families, and we're usually most motivated when we have a personal experience on a particular issue (i.e. know a family that was ruined by drugs). But its still the "road to hell" if in our pursuit of saving that one family, we inadvertantly create a system of laws that is inherently lopsided, with no checks or balances, and entirely dependent on everyone else seeing things our particular way.

Well said, and true.

We need to distinguish ourselves from the left, we need to use the strength of rational discourse and rule of law, and not emotionalism that obfuscates facts, or else we're no different than the left.

You're a distinct minority on this board in that respect. And I hate to break it to you, brother, but THERE AIN'T NO MORAL DIFF, left and right.

For years I watched the the DailyKos & like crowd trash Bush, sometimes trash my politically conservative Christian brethren likewise, very nasty... I attributed that to innate immorality of political left.
Now, six-eight years later, I see the same sort of nastiness - very often much more virulent - from conservatives, MANY OF THEM CLAIMING CHRIST.

It's been quite an eye-opener. 

We must be consistent, we must be the biggest advocate of liberty for all ... especially if that means that others have liberty to do things we oppose. Because in that liberty, a society compromised of the selfish and the selfless can hammer out a social contract by which we can all abide.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[ironglow]

Bugeye says;
   " the penalties for dealing are way too lenient.drugs ruin individuals and tear families apart.  execute dealers and it will slow the flow of drugs a little."
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
  I tend to agree that penalties are too lenient, but not in the same manner.  The penalties should not be increased as to length of stay in "crossbar Hotel".. but rather by what they do while they are there.  Most criminals get into trouble because they are trying to obtain funds they didn't honestly earn.  Drug dealers, various lies, scams and criminal acts such as ponzy schemes, habitual bad checks, robbery, carjacking, any burglary or a myriad of other things such come under that heading. Obviously they must learn what hard work is, many never having developed this skill.
  Even the habitual drunks and drug users must have a lot of dead time on their hands to practice their habits, so they likely need the same lesson.
   Up before the sun, things made ready and off to work..at hard labor.  It would be preferable if that were productive work, but even if that hard labor is nothing more than moving a large pile of rocks to the opposite side of the field, it would beat doing light duty nothing.
   The powers-that-be made a huge mistake whae they ruled out genuine hard labor.  Hard labor is in truth not asking more of the inmates than what is being done daily by many citizens on the outside...who are paying taxes to house and feed those same inmates.
   Learning good work habits is something many of them need to learn, having not learned them before incarceration.