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Author Topic: ANOTHER 356W Thread... UPDATED  (Read 5770 times)

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Offline cwlongshot

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ANOTHER 356W Thread... UPDATED
« on: February 08, 2012, 01:27:12 PM »
 ::)
Today the guy in the brown suit stopped by with a package... My 35 REM barrel arrived!!
 
 
 
I had the receiver with camo syn stocks on the bench ready for the barrel... I opened the barrel up, wipped it down and snapped it onto the receiver. KLUNK closed up nice and tite first time... only it would not open.  :o  The shelf was a couple thousanths long. Six or seven passes with a file fixed that quickly. Then a couple more on the shelf to square it and I was again rewarded with a firm klunk, only this time it opened too!  ;)
 

 
Now its time to order my reamer and get it rechambered.
 
CW
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 01:44:09 PM »
I am supposing here that since a 356 is a rimmed 358, and a 307 is a rimmed 308,  a 707 would be a rimmed 7-08 :o ??? , a necked down 307.  case. I guess one could even go on down to a 243 . Would that be a 243R, or a 607 ? I can see a sudden resurgence in the market for 356 & 307 cases, The rental for reamers could go nuts, rimmed/ rimless, it suddenly is the less filling/ tastes great argument. We should join the "have it your way crowd" :) 8) .
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Offline petemi

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 01:50:23 PM »
CW, you're gonna leave it at 22 inches?  It'll be interesting to see if there's any appreciable velocity difference between my 18 inch and your 22 with the same load.  Best of luck with the project.

I still haven't sighted mine in.  I guess that's why God made tomorrow. ::)   Today was one of those one step forward and two back kind of day.  I want to shoot at first light in the morning before the wind picks up.  Today, by the time I got "a roundtuit" it was already blowing.

Keep us posted.

Pete
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 02:01:13 PM »
Yes, definitely keeping it 22 inches!!  :o
I like shorties, but only for pistol and shotgun calibers!! I have a couple 16" barreled Marlins and well... My eyebrows have finally grown back and I DON'T what those debilitating head aches from my concussion to return.... SO, no shorties for hi power rifles for this cowboy!!! Heck, I don't even like the muzzle breaks on 'em!  ::) ::) ::)
 
CW
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Offline Jason F

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 02:21:48 PM »
Everybody is rechambering to 356,what is the advantage over the 35rem or the whelan
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 02:22:19 PM »
If you get the reamer from 4d it will be the 2nd barrel it has reamed. Pete's was the first ;D .
 Twoshooter, You are confusing this
old experienced man ;D I have on my list to ream all of the mentioned  308 based cases to the rimmed version with the intention of proving or disproving to myself the rimmed vs rimless "discussion"
 Now I do not know what to call the "offspring"
CW, which extractor are you planning on using? I used a 30-30 (with some modifications) on Pete's.
Good luck on your project and as you said "Pictures  of the target " Please ;D
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Offline Jason F

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 02:23:38 PM »
Is it a rimmed case
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 02:32:42 PM »
Two shooter,
 YES, you are correct, there is a whole "family" of possibilities that could be made off the 307/356 case. I would also very much like a 7x30 waters, but a 7/08 with a rim cut and using the rimmed case would be head and shoulders above the 7-30 and being a new, may be able to be named 7mm Handi or some such... Same as the 243... call it a 6mm Handi.. Ooh, I can see the wheels turning!!  :o ::)
 
Thanks Jeepman,
Larry has been telling me to ream with extractor in place, cut both at once... I always removed it...

 You can bank on the pictures!!
 
Quote from: Jason F on February 08, 2012, 02:23:38 PM
Is it a rimmed case
Yes Jason, the 307 and 356 share the same case, yes its rimmed. It is basically a rimmed version of the 308/358 Winchester cases.
 
With properly set up extractors, they will fire either rimmed or rimless rounds. I already have the 307/308 Winchester.
 
CW
 
 
 
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 04:35:58 PM »
Yup, I knew it. The only thing missing is the 338 Federal. Maybe someday...... :D ;)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 11:44:36 PM »
Quote from: twoshooter on February 08, 2012, 04:35:58 PM
Yup, I knew it. The only thing missing is the 338 Federal. Maybe someday...... :D ;)

For those who like the .338, instead of the Federal, the 338 Marlin Express (in keeping with the rimmed cases) might be a nice addition !!  As would its brother, the 308!!
I think if Marlin had remained the parent company, I think that that would have become a reality! But sadly, with Remington at the wheel, I doubt you will see much of any "New" calibers offered.
 
http://www.chuckhawks.com/308_marlin_first_look.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/338_marlin_express.htm
 
CW
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Offline petemi

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 12:41:54 AM »
Quote from: Jason F on February 08, 2012, 02:21:48 PM
Everybody is rechambering to 356,what is the advantage over the 35rem or the whelan

Jeepmann1948 posted this link on my .356 thread below.  It's Paco Kelly's article.  Read the entire thing and it will answer all your questions.

Pete

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm
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The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 01:06:20 AM »
Quote from: Jason F on February 08, 2012, 02:21:48 PM
Everybody is rechambering to 356, what is the advantage over the 35 Rem or the Whelen?

Ballistically speaking and in a handi action, the 356 has nothing over a Whelen. But offers almost a 25% ballistic improvement over the 35 Remington. This is mostly because it operates at higher pressures. Partially because it's a bit bigger capacity.

But for me and some others, it's the rim. Both the Lil rem and the Whelen have been plagued with FTFs. This is because of the small shoulder the cases head space off of. This is magnified in actions like the handi because in a bolt with a claw the case head is held against the bolt face. This helps quite a bit. In the handi the ejector has some reward resistance and some have found ways to increase the reward force. But it's a band aid, the cartridge should sit on it's shoulder but I have found with rem cases they are soft and when the firing pin hits the primer that soft shoulder can cushion just enough for FTF. IMHO this is more common than poor head-space that gets blamed. It IS exacerbated by the less than optimal quality control of our beloved little guns.

The 356 is rimmed, the rim is far more rigid and provides a better platform for the single shot action. The action has allot of "spring" compared to a bolt. Similar "springy" ness occurs in some rear lugged lever actions. (in the case of the 35 Rem)

Many mention rimless and the ejectors caused or created stuck case and the elimination of ejectors is now means rims are useless. They miss the point, a single shot was designed and works best with a rimmed case. YES ejectors where of could be weak causing poor extraction. BUT rimmed cases has ejectors as well and generally speaking did not have stuck cases. Partially because a rimmed caliber operates at lower pressures but more so because of more reliable head space. (Head space has little to  nothing to do with stuck cases, in this regard) Yes rimless will and do work quite well. I own a few that have given years of flawless service. My preference for rimmed cases in single shots remains.

In short and for me, the 356 offers a better case for the handi action, better ballistics than the Lil Remington and more reliable ignition than both the Remington and grand Whelen. Also I like the less popular and obscure calibers. Probably the biggest reason I don't use a 30/06 often. It's great and will do it all, but it lacks the mystery and I treatise finding out what other calibers can do. Most everyone knows the /06 up, down and inside out. For other is just a neat, different caliber with allot to offer.

CW
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Offline tom548

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 03:15:09 AM »
I reamed my 35 Rem to .358 Win. last April. I had two FTF using the .358 case (made from .308 ) out of 65 rounds fired. I felt it may have been from pushing the neck back while forming the case.  After reading different post about the problems some had with rimless case and FTF I then milled a rim on the chamber with my lathe. I also got lucky and found a guy that had 400 new .356 brass for sale a few months ago. All I need is the warmer weather to see if I get any more FTF.
Also the .358 was a shoulder thumper, The .356 should be a little less.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 03:30:39 AM »
Something else to be aware of when comparing the 358 to the 356 is the lower velocity.  The 356 is loaded to a shorter OAL to be able to funtion thru the lever actions it was designed for.Seating the bullet deeper restricts powder capacity. This is shorter OAL is not a limitation in our single shot Handi action, as we can seat it out to .010 - .020 off the rifling. I have repeatidly read the case is thicker on the rimmed 356 case, further restricting powder capacity. I need to check this for myself. But for now, I'm gonna guess it's very close. Seating to the same OAL and firing in a SS Handi action, I am gonna guess these two will be all but identical .
In my case, I likely will never see top velocities. I will load to about 2400fps with a 200g bullet. This will do everything I need. My old BLR in 358W was a lightning rod with Hornady 200 spitzers loaded bown to this velocity. I have ordered 200 220G Speer bullets so I may use these instead, Its gonna depend on how they shoot. I also have some 200FTX to try as well. The 225 and 250g are reserved for the Whelen.  ;D

I agree with your assessment Tom. Its very likely your resizing those 308's resulted in a slight discrepancy that caused the FTF. Although its a fact that the 358 Win has the same small shoulder as the lil Rem and Whelen cartridages. Less body taper for a larger diameter would help this. But as its chambered in bolt and lever actions its not as common. (Plus it's in a harder Winchester case) It's just not nearly as popular, so we never hear about it.
 
CW
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Offline LedLobber

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 09:58:46 AM »
Some REALLY GREAT info here Guys, especially for those of us that haven't yet Reamed our Handi's a new one. :)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:17 PM »
Quote from: LedLobber on February 09, 2012, 09:58:46 AM
Some REALLY GREAT info here Guys, especially for those of us that haven't yet Reamed our Handi's a new one. :)

WELCOME led lobber!!
 
I just tried to rent the reamer...but I guess the web site dont get updated too quickly... The reamer is not listed. I will have to call tomorrow and do it over the phone...
 
Pete, did you send it back yet??
 
CW
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Offline petemi

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 02:53:11 PM »
Brian, George sent it back a week or so ago.  Call Fred tomorrow, they should have it if it's not rented again.

Pete
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The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline Dinny

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2012, 07:47:20 AM »
"I have created a monster!"  ;D   ;)
 
Thanks, Dinny
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Offline Dinny

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2012, 03:10:18 PM »
I'm not sure if I'll have a chance to chrony on loads before my big trip. If I do, it'll be really interesting to compare our results. My barrel is 20". ;)
 
Thanks, Dinny
 
 
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Offline tom548

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 04:41:58 AM »
I checked case volume last summer. I used  win. 748 powder both of the case were made by Wn.
1) 356 Win.
       a) case full to top 54 GR,
       b) case filled to bottom of neck 47 gr.
 
 2) 358 Win (from 308)
      a) full to top 54.5 gr.
       b) filled to bottom on neck 47.4 gr.
 
 As you can see the two win. case are the same BASIC volume.
I also checked some Mil. case I had and they only held 52 gr. full and  43.5 to bottom of neck
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 04:57:06 AM »
The best way to accurately check case volume is with water in a primed, unsized fired case, weigh empty, and again after filling with water, volume is the difference in weight.  ;)

Tim
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Offline tom548

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 04:25:03 PM »
I have used water in the past it is more accurate but also a mess. The powder gives a pretty good idea of how close the size of the case are to each other. You just need to take care not to weigh one loose and the next compacted. I know it is not perfect.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 12:01:05 AM »
This will not be messy ;)

Here are a few rifle case capacities

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_case_capacity.htm

Here is a more complete list

http://kwk.us/cases.html

Good Luck and Good Shooting

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 12:54:46 AM »
That is a perfectly proportioned rifle.
Scope, barrel and stocks. Looks GOOD to me ;)


Curious, is there any green on that stock or is it the picture or my eyes.
Looks like a brown camo.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 08:32:56 AM »
I am one step closer..... I FINALLY had the opertunity to rent the reamer today!!!

I should see it in a couple days and in no time I wil join the elite ranks of 356 Winchester Handi owners!!

CW
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Offline cwlongshot

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I OFFICIALLY own a 356 WINCHESTER!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2012, 03:12:27 PM »
Its official, I own a 356 Winchester H&R!!  ;D   ;D
 
You just have to LOVE the service you get at 4D Reamer rentals!!! THANKS GUYS!!!
 
I ordered the 356 Winchester reamer Thursday and its here today Saturday 2/18/12!! 

 
SO after dinner I took the barrel apart, clamped it in the vice. Got out the tap handle and cutting fluid..... Took me about 30 minutes from 35 Remington to 356 Winchester!
 


 
I used a 3/8 #4 Phillips bit for the reamer adapter.
 

 
 
Cutting was easy, I took my time one or two complete revolutions and remove reamer. Blow out chamber and then clean reamer. Oil and repeat... took about 60 times. But the last couple where slow as I didn't want to cut too deep. I stopped at about 1/2 a thousands under flush.
 

 
 
Here I have just started cutting the rim... Lots a oil!
 

 
 
I am about half done with the rim but..
 

 
 
Its all done!! It's cut to a half a thousandths past flush. This is to allow for variances in brass.
 



 
Then I reinstalled the extractor to see if it would work. It did but was a noticeable drag on the case. Sometimes making case removal difficult. So I removed it and hit the center with the dremel tool. I put a small radius on it and then took the sharp corners off it... It works with both rimmed and rimless cases... But was still a bit sharp. So I removed and hit it again this time with a little larger stone... Well I went too far...  :-[  It worked perfectly with the 356 Cases, but a 358 slides right past the extractor. SO no big deal, they are cheap, I will order a couple and modify until I get it how I want it!
 


 
Now I need more RANGE TIME!!! As predicted, I never even shot this barrel as it was factory chambered... I could have, but forgot it Friday when I was at the range! I had my new 22Mag on the brain!!
 
CW
 
 

 
 
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2012, 03:38:39 PM »
Nice job CW! Are you going to modify the 35 rem extractor or use a modified 30-30? I use a 30-30  in my conversions seems to work well so far .
 As you so eloquently requested of Pete ............. Range report please............. :D
Again  Very nice work
George
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2012, 03:53:35 PM »
Quote from: jeepmann1948 on February 18, 2012, 03:38:39 PM
Nice job CW! Are you going to modify the 35 rem extractor or use a modified 30-30? I use a 30-30  in my conversions seems to work well so far .
 As you so eloquently requested of Pete ............. Range report please............. :D
Again  Very nice work
George

Thanks George!
 
I modified the 35 Rem extractor... I detailed what I did in the last paragraph.  I need to order a couple more, I sent Pete the last ones I had... I would like for this to work with both 358 and 356 as my 307 also fires 308's. Not hard, just need to get the extractor radius correct and adj the spring so it will be able to raise up a bit. Actually I may still be able to salvage this extractor as I did not adjust for increased travel of the extractor...  But it works perfectly for 356 and that's what I will be shooting 99.9% of the time.
 
You can bank on a Range report!!!  Maybe next weekend... see what mother nature and my work schedule has to say about that...
 
CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2012, 06:49:36 AM »
Nice work CW, great pics and info for the FAQs, thanks!!  ;D

Tim
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Offline petemi

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Re: ANOTHER 356W Thread...
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2012, 08:19:42 AM »
CW, there should be another extractor floating around my shop somewhere, happily misplaced.  I'll renew the search and send it if it turns up.  One replaced a broken one in my .30-30 and one went to George for my .356.   There still should be another somewhere. ??? ???

Nice job.  You're gonna like it ;D ;D

Pete
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