Author Topic: Firearm part... or not???  (Read 542 times)

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Offline Brit Guy

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Firearm part... or not???
« on: February 08, 2012, 09:23:42 PM »
Not been around these parts for a while, so apologies that my first post in ages is a question, and not a response, but here goes anyway.


In a nutshell, can anyone tell me when a barrel is deemed to be a “firearm part” in the eyes of the law?


This may be obvious to many, but I am trying to find out what constitutes legal and illegal for purposes of exporting. In the UK and NZ a barrel isn’t considered a gun part unless it has been chambered for a round of ammunition and I believe threaded for the fitting of an action. This makes sense, as up until then it is only a length of bar with a hole drilled in it... Useful as a club maybe. Also, it will take a fair amount of machining to finish the barrel, and one may say that if you have the tooling and knowhow to do this successfully, then you also have the means to make a gun should you so desire. The action however, well that is the bit that draws the attention re licensing and wot not.


The US on the other hand, well there is a company offering 80% part finished receivers that only need a few holes drilling for completion. The company ship worldwide, no restrictions from customs it seems.... On the other hand, when I have looked at ordering one or two barrel blanks, it seems that they need an export license, which obviously makes it not cost worthy.


This is such a shame, as I have been looking to find a decent supply of blanks at a reasonable cost.


Just looking for logic here... And maybe a workaround if possible. ;)








Offline Poopers

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 03:43:34 AM »
I work in one of the Americas premiere rifle barrel shops ( govt contracts, smith + wesson, remington, customs ect. ).

In my shop we go from barebone bar-stock metal to fully rifled cut to size barrels. The only thing we dont do is the exterior cosmetics.

Felons are allowed to work in my shop so Im assuming the barrel, in the eyes of the law isnt much of a gun part.

An export license is probably needed for shipping anything outside of the country

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 03:52:34 AM »
I would think that under the law, anything that goes into the making of a gun (parts wise) would be considered a FIREARM PART.
I know that the law considers the frame ONLY as the firearm itself.
They really don't seem to care to much about the parts as long as they are legal.
They, by them selves are nothing but parts.
It is the frame that is needed to make the sum of the parts a gun.
 
 
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 04:53:51 AM »
Brit since probably 99.999% here are US Citizens you're going to be lucky to get any reasonable answer.  Here only the action housing is considered a firearm and parts just don't matter.  Could be for a gun or a tractor since it just don't matter.  I would think an anonymous call to a local customs agent on your side of the pond would be a way to start but like most here, I have no idea how they derived at some of the idiotic laws you have to contend with.

Offline Brit Guy

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 10:10:56 AM »
 Appreciate the replies guys, thank you.
 
POOPERS, felons working in a barrel making company, wow, but then again, I suppose the security must be good huh.!
 
LONGTOM, well yes, you pretty much have the idea there, but still, the export laws still seem a bit ridiculous. I will explain more….
 
Old Syko, well the thing is, the customs guys here don’t have the issue with barrel blanks, they would see them as tubes of metal, not gun parts (they aren’t gun parts as they don’t fit a gun, and are not able to chamber a round etc…
 
Anyway, my gunsmithing supplies outfit in the states, they tell me that if I order anything that could be part of a gun, ie trigger screws, trigger springs, back sights etc, then as long as the parts are not main parts, ie NOT frame, receiver or barrel, then no export licence is required, AS LONG as the total invoice doesn’t exceed $100 US. So that means that I can order “bits” but have to either keep the order small, or split into multiple orders, which makes little sense to me, as I still get the goods, but have to pay more in postage. The problem is, if any one item tips the $100 mark, then it cannot be sent without the export licence….  :(
 
I know, this is all academic for you lucky guys living in the US, but my oh my, is it frustrating for those of us who don’t.
 
The bloody thing is, “we” can all see the nonsense here, and the injustice if you like, but not a lot we can do, other than work within the system. That’s why I was trying to find out when a part becomes a “part”.
 
To take things further, if a street hood made a one shot gun with a sawn off stool leg, some duct tape and a hammer, then the leg could have been said to be a makeshift barrel…. But up till some point, it is just a chair leg or a piece of tube.
If it is said that the person intended it to be a barrel, hence it was a barrel, then if you gave someone a block of steel and said this is intended for you to make a receiver from, then does that constitute a gun part?
 
As I understood it, if the item (like a Razor Receiver)  still needs an amount of work doing to it before it can be used for its intended purpose, then it isn’t classed as a “part”. But unlike said receiver, a barrel blank is little more than a useless piece of tube until it has had considerable skilled work done to it, by someone who knows how to chamber, thread and fit the thing, else surely it is as useless as the chair leg until that point.
 
I know this all sounds a bit of a moan, but these are exactly the things that stop ordinary folk from going about their daily business and trying to make an honest buck. There are too many rules, too many hoops and hurdles to jump through, little or no common sense.
 
 

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 11:06:37 AM »
A barrel purchase does not go thru a FFL.
It has no serial number.
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 11:31:05 AM »
Sounds to me like you're saying anything valued at over $100 requires an export license regardless of whether it is gun related or not.  Is this what you're being told?  We have a local export shipper here that ships everything from bicycles to military armament.  I'll try to contact the office manager and shoot her some questions if you tell me specifically what you want to ask.  I'll try to not screw it up in translation.  Are barrel blanks to a specific point of completion your main concern?  I seem to be a little dense today.  ??? 

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 11:55:57 AM »
Under the ITAR, the $100 exemption limit applies to other firearms parts, it doesn't apply to rifle barrels and frames which still require an export license.

http://www.ndia.org/Resources/ExportImportComplianceResources/Documents/Annotated%20ITAR%20(25%20May%2011).pdf


Quote
§ 123.17 Exports of Firearms and Ammunition
(a) Except as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter, Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of components and parts for Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames) or complete breech mechanisms when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction.

Just FYI, non-combat shotgun barrels and muzzleloaders are not listed in the restricted parts that require an export license.

Tim

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf

Quote
NOTE: This coverage by the U.S. Munitions List in paragraphs (a) through (i) of this category excludes any non-combat shotgun with a barrel length of 18 inches or longer, BB, pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms.

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Offline Brit Guy

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 12:21:51 PM »
Sounds to me like you're saying anything valued at over $100 requires an export license regardless of whether it is gun related or not.  Is this what you're being told?  We have a local export shipper here that ships everything from bicycles to military armament.  I'll try to contact the office manager and shoot her some questions if you tell me specifically what you want to ask.  I'll try to not screw it up in translation.  Are barrel blanks to a specific point of completion your main concern?  I seem to be a little dense today.  ???

Hi OS... Well it isnt far anything, but just any part of a firearm (but not the main parts), up to a total of $100. And yes, I have looked at importing a few blanks, as I am trying to get into 'smithin'. The blanks here are ridiculous prices, as there are so few makers, and nothing much off the peg so it seems.
All I would like to do is source a supply of blanks (not chambered, threaded etc), so that I may finish them in my workshop, as required. As for needing export licences, well i believe it is about $400 a pop, so ordering one or two barrels at a time wouldnt be cost effective....

Cheers


Offline Brit Guy

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 12:46:03 PM »
Under the ITAR, the $100 exemption limit applies to other firearms parts, it doesn't apply to rifle barrels and frames which still require an export license.


Yes I agree, but what I mean is, going on the assumption that a rilfe barrel isnt a rifle barrel (you would think) untill it can actually fit to a rifle and accept a round, ie, if it is just a 1" metal bar, with a hole drilled down the middle, rifled or not, then does it actually constitute a "barrel" ie is it a firearm part? 
I have been trying to find out what the laws says on this, but the only thing i have to go on is that part finished receivers are available to anyone, and have no export restrictions (according to the company who ships them out), but barrel blanks, well the two companies i have spoke to wont send them without an export licence, but i think they may be being overly cautious.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »
I'd say once the blank is rifled, it's a rifle barrel which is why they won't ship without the export license, but that's just my opinion.

Tim
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Offline Brit Guy

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 02:06:12 PM »
I'd say once the blank is rifled, it's a rifle barrel which is why they won't ship without the export license, but that's just my opinion.

Tim

Could be... but it seems to then contradict the fact that you can (unless i am mistaken) purchase or have a riled blank without restriction (not sure about US), but only when it has been chambered etc, does it become a "part" for a firearm.

Anyway, I have a lead that I need to contact tomorrow (ATF) who may be able to put this one to bed.

Appreciate your input guys.

Regards

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Firearm part... or not???
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
Good luck sorting it out!
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!