End of the World as we know it.....?

[RB Rooson]

Now that we have possibly established  a "Subject", the next question is:   What is it?  What form does it take?  What does it look like when it happens?   I think that we can have credible proof for the American (and possibly Western culture....) psyche of the EOTWAWKI.  It seems to be evident in numerous recent books and films (e.g. currently the new Fall Series "Terranova" on Fox/TV - in which the story seems to be an attempt avoid the "End" and create a new "world" - there are a multitude of "holes" in this program, which they gloss over and leave some very unplausible scenarios.  Why did they go back 85 million years?  Would not a million have been enough?).   "Planet of the Apes; I am Legend; Mad Max" etc. all portend a civilization that has gone amuck as a result of the event.  The resultant "gangs" that would be racing all over the countryside is also highly improbable if you just sit and think about it.  After years of experience, I have found that "inner city" or city dwellers in general are very uncomfortable when they have to get out of their habitats.  The remote country areas are places to be feared and they have very little concept of the differance between a kangaroo and a deer (just ask Kevin....!), much less spend days and nights out in them.  Gasoline or an energy source would greatly hinder any mobility for an extended length of time.  Organization would be devastating to these groups (did you ever try to get four people walking in a straight line, much less taking twenty or more on a "scouring campaign"?) and the idea of being just twenty miles from their "home environment" (whatever that was....?) would begin to cast doubts even in the dimmest of minds.  We have not even gotten into any resistance that they would encounter (other groups or a modicum of banded citizens, etc.) long before they had progressed that bare twenty miles!  And there are at least an additional half-dozen other variences that would act to be insulating to let's say, Fortney, MI (mythical place), much less the state, from marauding hordes out of Detroit, Chicago, Indianapolis or wherever.....!   The EMP theory is also full of "holes".  A rogue nation (Iran) developes an atomic device which they detonate from a missle launched off-shore in the Gulf of Mexico over the center of the United States.  This explosion causes a real phenomen known as an EMP which destroys all electrical circuitry and communication, right?  Thus causing the downfall of the country and enables the "great Satan" to be easily within the final days of takeover by extremists.  The SHTF crowd loves this scenario, except they forget one thing......!?   The USA has 157 military bases around the world, numerous atomic submarines, aircraft carriers (and then there is that place called "Alaska" - which by the way, would not afflicted with the EMP over the lower 48....) so, unless (Iran or even a major enemy) did the same attack everywhere there would be an eventual response from "America outside of the US" and we would come back.....may take time, five years onwards....but, our world diversity would save us.  The power of a single atomic submarine or aircraft carrier is amazing, much less a multitude of them.  And we haven't even gotten into allies around the world (Australia, New Zealand, England, Germany, Japan and on-and-on.....)!    The EMP Theory is intellectually dishonest and (dare I say it?) down-right stupid!   The most probable EOTWAWKI is the "financial collapse theory"  This would affect the entire world and if infrastucture fell.....it would be everywhere.  Now the key part of the phrase is "....EOTAW as we know it!"  People would not be dropping dead in the streets.  The world will probably digress into some type of  1800's mind-set and become almost agarian in nature.  Family values would return out of necessity.  We would be having a world end as we know it in the "21st Century moment".  Maybe not so bad when you think of it?   What does it look like to you?  Very interested.....

[BUGEYE]

it'll probably be in the form of sun activity which disrupts power grids etc. for a few days or weeks.
my daughter would think it's the end of the world without her computers.
but we are prepared for a long time with food, water, propane, guns, ammo, medicine,cleaning supplies, and books.

[Empty Quiver]

EMP ? Yea, that would be a mess. Lots of the infirm would quickly pass on. Weak and overweight Americans would be a fond memory. Farmers will happily hire city dwellers to do jobs there ain't enough Mexicans to do. Feeding America will take a ton of HUMAN sweat, no fuel, no chemicals ,no fertilizer, no horses. Hell no team of horses ever assembled is going to pull a 60' field cultivator, or a 24 row planter for that matter. I'm guessing if you want the fast track to the top breed horse flesh, and learn to make harness.


The idea that "inner city thugs" will wilt on the vine is wrong. Take them into the country and they will adapt, witness a common "sewer rat".  Country folk are not all survivor types either by any stretch. Some will make do, some will be eaten up by the 'Hood Rats" descending from the city. There will be a steep learning curve for both camps.


I am witnessing the EOTWAIKI. Name me a few things that your grandparents would find normal or even improved upon. I'm far from retirement age and am sick of where we seem to be headed. What sickens me most is by and large this country is being crashed on purpose. Any repair idea is dismissed out of hand austerity measures are crap-canned in favor of increased deficit spending.


 Powerful people are knocking holes in the ship to throw treasure into life rafts. It's too damned late for that idea, the gold won't float. We need to fix our problems right here, right now. The people in steerage can bail water just fine. Rather than drown them how about we get them some buckets? Currently those in steerage are getting the idea to knock holes below waterline to drown those above them too.


It's ate up and I certainly don't have all the answers.

[bilmac]

Hyper inflation is just about inevitable and has to be just around the corner.

[mcwoodduck]

When Rome fell, I am sure they saw it as an end of the world, the system collapesed and was replaced by new systems.  Inbetween there was choas.  Might made right, and Kings appeared that proteced.
If our system collapses, our Fiat money becomes worth less and we go back on the gold standard, things will change, lawlesness will abound until a stability is created.  History tells our future if faced with the same problems.

[teamnelson]

I read a book called Soft Apocalypse, came out in 2011. I think its on to something, although its science fiction so it spins into something far fetched. But the premise was simple ...
 
Picture the US descending slowly from 1st world to 2nd world to 3rd world over a decade. The initial phase would look like 25% unemployment (which shadowstats indicates is where we are today), hyperfinflation, and a government unable to support social programs while the nation goes hungry having moved to a near 100% reliance on imports to eat. The last prop to fall would be the govt in this scenario, and millions would continue to look to the govt to supply all their needs (rights) right up until the bitter end, and stand with their hand out in righteous indignation even after that.
 
Middle class would evaporate, rich get richer, poor get poorer ... the author speculates the formation of "tribes" or groups of people without a job or a home who band together for mutual survival. They become nomadic because the haves don't want them cluttering up the yard. They are treated as gypsies. I thought that was a very insightful hypothesis as that is exactly what has happened in the other hemisphere when society collapsed, gypsies became commonplace.
 
As we become firmly entrenched in the 2nd world, hygiene/sanitation becomes an issue. I had dinner with our medical staff (I'm an officer on a carrier at sea) and they confirmed that the primary factor of our relatively good health today in America is the product of hygiene, and access to sanitary materials. Take that away, and we will see rampant health issues, weakened immune systems, etc. Look at haiti: Cholera, Dysentery, Dengue Fever ... sanitation issues. No access to immunization, so we're dealing with flu, polio, measles/mumps/rubella. Take away community health efforts, and we're looking at malaria, west nile, etc. Take away nutritional supplementation ... well, its no one thing, its a collection of a myriad of things that once removed, means many of our youngest or oldest will die. This accelerates our descent into the 3rd world, where things like power, food, medicine and communications are consolidated around populations of the have's, while whole geographic areas of the have nots go without. Education takes a nose dive, so we begin to lose the on ramp into necessary infrastructure maintenance jobs. An environment like that is ripe for social unrest, so in that landscape, throw sectarian and personal violence, and a dissolution of a rule of law.
 
Pretty bleak, but absolutely probable ... has happened time and time again all over this world throughout history.
 
The 7 fat years are coming to an end, and the 7 lean are on the horizon. Never too late to prepare.

[BUGEYE]

most of those things could very well happen, but if the government collapsed, so would financial institutions.  so them rich folks better hope they stocked up on guns and ammo.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Long before any of the things we think we are preparing for occur we will see martial law and nationalization of all vital industries to insure their continued operation, on at least a minimal level.  There are probably already contingency plans for this.  Barring world war, none of the survivalist scenarios are likely to happen. If world war does occur then it will likely be on an apocalyptic scale and if things only drop back to the 1800's level then we'll be doing real good.


Alan

[BUGEYE]

Long before any of the things we think we are preparing for occur we will see martial law and nationalization of all vital industries to insure their continued operation, on at least a minimal level.  There are probably already contingency plans for this.  Barring world war, none of the survivalist scenarios are likely to happen. If world war does occur then it will likely be on an apocalyptic scale and if things only drop back to the 1800's level then we'll be doing real good.


Alan

I think this prez would love to have a reason to declare martial law.  what would happen after that I don't know.  but it probably won't be fun.

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt the most likely senerio would be economic collapse its slowly happening right now. the population gets bigger everyday and theres less food, fuel and jobs. Its just a matter of time before this country cant support itself going in the direction were are going right now.

[blind ear]

$100 land being $30 an acre rather than $4,500 an acre. Thank you defunct banks and real estate agents. ear

[reliquary]

 
The scenarios range from unreasonably unlikely (EMP like in "One Second After", WWIII with nukes, etc) to remotely possible (dirty bomb in NYC's financial district or in DC, rogue nation setting loose superbug like anthrax) to very likely (financial collapse leading to Great Depression 2.0, large-scale civil unrest leading to burning cities and military rule, financial problems lead to hyperinflation and unemployment like Jimmah Cahtuh 2.0).
 
I personally am preparing for something between GD 2.0 and Jimmah 2.0.  My folks lived through the Great Depression and I remember the stories they told...they really never got over it.  We were poor Rednecks and learned to "make do."  I was in the service under Landslide Lyndon and Tricky Dick and The Jawjuh Giant.  God forbid we elect anyone like any of them again...oh, wait...
 
Anyway, the most likely scenario, as I see it, centers around financial collapse.  The great difference between GD 1.0 and GD 2.0 is that the roving bands of homeless hungries in the one to come will NOT be like the ones written about in "Grapes of Wrath" and sung about by Woody Guthrie.  I'm afraid that the ones we'll see...at least initially...will be roving bands of homeless crazoids, inner-city third-generation welfare-dependent derelicts, inner-city gangs, and their like.
 
The only way that can be controlled is through declaration of martial law and the use of military force by some sort of central authority.  Hopefully, we won't devolve into some parody of 1930s Germany. I'm not prepared for that.
 
Financial collapse will likely be resolved in between 6 and 12 months.  I am prepared to deal with that: stored supplies, garden spot, live on a lake, ex-military, grew up Redneck, etc.  Everything else, I leave up to a provident God, in whom I trust and will see on the other side.
 
 
 

[blind ear]

Long before any of the things we think we are preparing for occur we will see martial law and nationalization of all vital industries to insure their continued operation, on at least a minimal level.  There are probably already contingency plans for this.  Barring world war, none of the survivalist scenarios are likely to happen. If world war does occur then it will likely be on an apocalyptic scale and if things only drop back to the 1800's level then we'll be doing real good.


Alan

I think this prez would love to have a reason to declare martial law.  what would happen after that I don't know.  but it probably won't be fun.

If it is accompanied by a requirement to "turn in your guns" it should be considered a "Call To Arms" by patriots.
 
ear
 

[Blue Duck]

A country boy can survive.....

[bilmac]

Prophecy in the Bible never mentions the U S of A that I can find. It is inconcievable to me that the major world power in the end times would not be mentioned. I take it then that the U S will no longer be a world power. How could we fade into a something not worth mentioning so quickly? Look at what has happened to the USSR. Jesus said we can look at the signs and tell when the end is near. When I look, the Biblical end time seems very near, but by the way I recon things the US has to be inconsequential before the end.

Buckle the seat belts boys I think we are in for a very bumpy ride very soon.

[BUGEYE]

Long before any of the things we think we are preparing for occur we will see martial law and nationalization of all vital industries to insure their continued operation, on at least a minimal level.  There are probably already contingency plans for this.  Barring world war, none of the survivalist scenarios are likely to happen. If world war does occur then it will likely be on an apocalyptic scale and if things only drop back to the 1800's level then we'll be doing real good.


Alan

I think this prez would love to have a reason to declare martial law.  what would happen after that I don't know.  but it probably won't be fun.

If it is accompanied by a requirement to "turn in your guns"it should be considered a "Call To Arms" by patriots.
 
ear

ear, my sentiments exactly.

[bilmac]

We've had this discussion before, I don't believe very much of the military would follow our fearless leader.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont buy into that one and really dont want to. Im not a big fan or our president. As a matter of fact ........  but was in the military and do know that you are taught to follow the orders of your superiors NO QUESTIONS ASKED and im sure most of our troops are going to do just that. As to the higher ups in the military bucking the president sure it could happen but theyve been all there lives obeying the orders of there superiors too and if they did disobey it would be the last straw in the collapse of our goverment and your way of life would never be the same. You think theres oppression by our goverment now in this country wait till  some military rebels decide they want to rule. bottom line is our front line troops are just like you and I. there first priority is there familys not yours. they are going to know there much better off in a situation like martial law  to obey orders because they know that they will be the first to be fed and so will there familys. If you think there going to sacrafice that for there morals ive got a bridge to sell you.

We've had this discussion before, I don't believe very much of the military would follow our fearless leader.

[reliquary]

As a retired soldier (66-86), I'm afraid that Lloyd is absolutely correct.  Especially given the ethnic, political, sexual, and nonreligious orientation of today's military; I'm afraid that their loyalty would be to the guy who put them in power.  Our local versions of service...the Guard and the Reserve units...seem to still be loyal to the "home folks".  For the time being, at least.  That may not be true in your part of the country.
 
There continues to be disturbing news about unprecedented power being given to folks in DC: drone flights over the USA, warrantless surveillance, unlimited detention to "enemies of the state", armed Civilian Defense Groups reminiscent of 1930s Brownshirts, TSA roadblocks on the highways, SWAT teams in every government department...even the Dept of Education...etc.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm just being paranoid, then I wonder if I'm being being paranoid enough?
 
We really need to get out the conservative, religious vote this year.
 
 
 
 

[teamnelson]

It saddens me whenever someone throws out the old saw "the military is trained to obey, they'll shoot their parents if ordered to" yada yada. My posts against this lie are all over this site and others.
 
Been active duty since 87, still active duty, and a Chaplain now, so I know everybody in my flock and have constant daily pulse check on the morals and ethics of our young troops. And I don't buy your fear. In fact, with many of the policy changes places into affect since I came in, troops now are much more likely to disobey a direct order - even a lawfully directed one - than at any time in our nation's history. Its a documented problem. I speak of what I see and know every stinking day; in recent history, I've done 2 combat tour with an Infantry BN to Iraq, a joint tour with all 5 branches, and presently on a Carrier.
 
So how about we point the finger where it belongs ... that's you. IF our young troops follow an order against liberty, its because they don't understand citizenship, not because they're mindless robots. They don't know the consitution, they are ignorant. The vast majority of the young folks I work with ... can I say it: YOUR KIDS, GRANDKIDS, NEPHEWS AND NEICES ... are patriotic, and would shoot me before they shot a citizen. But they are ignorant of our heritage and our constitution. And whose fault is that? Did you FAIL to teach them anything when they were under your roof? Did you FAIL to speak up for liberty in their presence? Did you FAIL to hold your school district accountable for doing your job on your behalf? Society bears the responsbiliity for the morals of the children they produce. I have one in service and another going into service this summer, and they both know the difference between a lawful and unlawful order.
 
Probably the smartest statement on this issue was that we ... active duty military ... are just like you, worried about our families. But you know who the biggest threat is to our families? Do you pay attention to the news? The biggest threat to the active duty military family is ... wait for it, its not you ... the government. This President, the one most likely to declare guns illegal, is the same one who arbitrarily slashed thousands of good retainable troops this year while his family went on vacation on our military base in Hawaii, and used our facilities. We were paying attention if you weren't. This President wants to slash our manpower by 1/3; his plan is to draw us down from 1.5 million to 1 million total end strength in a matter of years. That's putting 500,000 people, most of who were planning to stay in during a time of poor economic growth and high unemployment, with their families, out on the street. Oh, and if you're lucky enough to stay in ... most are reenlisting with NO bonus these days, that should tell you veterans something ... we're going to 1 year deployments across the board. 1 year. Yeah, the government really takes care of its military and their families.
 
If I had a nickel for every military family member who is sick to death of the decreasing level of service in HC and family services, increasing level of stress and uncertainty placed on the troop ... we'd all be rich.
 
Its congress that's never served, a President that's never served, making poor decisions ... and every troop I talk to knows that fact and resents it. We have top level officers and senior enlisted burned out and vocal about how poorly the government is handling foreign policy and the impact on troops. There is no way on God's green earth they could issue a flagrantly unconstitutional order and have the manpower to enforce. Obama knows it, its why he wanted to stand up his own national security force with no constituional allegiance. If you're going to worry about something, worry about that.

[reliquary]

TeamNelson:  don't hold back, brother...tell it like it is.   
 
I hope in my heart of hearts that you're correct in your assessment about the state of the military.  But as a 66-86 midgrade I saw the worst of the draft and the Modern Volunteer Army, where most of the leadership was afraid to go out into the unit areas after dark.  I fear that it will get worse than that, with the conditions I see.  Maybe folks such as you can hold back the darkness.
 
After the service, I taught in HS and JH and the fires of patriotism and civic responsibility are still pretty much lit here in Small Town Texas.  Not so in the larger metro areas.  Hardly at all in the colleges where liberalism and hatred of America is a religion.  Not so in some of the pulpits around the country, including the one where our President was nurtured. 
 
You hit it right on the head:  the vast majority of our current leaders have never invested any time, blood, sweat, or tears into our country.  Too many of them come from the privileged classes, even from multi-generational political families where entitlement to power comes from the name and the family, and have never had to meet a payroll or a deadline or a budget.  Far too few of them have ever had to be on their bellies in the dirt and smoke and look a young man in the eye and say, "I need you to help me do something really dangerous"...or attend a memorial service when nothing worked.   
 
Allen West is one of the good guys; if anyone hasn't read his bio, you should.  We need more folks like him in office.
 
 
 
 

[BUGEYE]

we do not give our military enough credit. most of those young men and women have enough brains to know who the enemy is.  I do not think they would open fire on civilians.
atf agents, irs agents etc. might shoot.
on my wifes side, there is a neice and two nephews serving.  I know them well.  they will not kill civilians.

[SHOOTALL]

The people who have gone thru a natural disaster know what a EOTWAWKI is . Someone who has had a grave medical problem has some experience with it. Of course many will give up and die. Others will survive. They will bond with like minded people and form new local governments and pick up and go forward. They will most likely build on what they find. They will learn to deal with what ever situation they find themselves in. I would suspect they would be willing to destroy any opposition that threatened their lives. Wealth may have little meaning , gold and silver may only have value if they can be used to make something. 22 bullets , seed , any type fuel ,salt and other such items will take on the role of money .
To many 9/11 was a big change but in a few short years things were back to normal if there was no chance to bring back "normal" in a life time it will be interesting times for sure.

[geezerbiker]

The only thing I can see causing a scenario like this would be either a deadly new virus that spreads faster than the world can prepare for it or a big chunk of rock from space.    Neither of these is very likely.  People seem to bounce back from all other disasters in a few to several years.

Japan just went through about the worst natural disaster the world has seen in quite awhile and I'll bet they're back to normal in less than 10 years.  Here in the pacific northwest, we're a bit over 30 years past a volcano eruption and most of the time no one talks about it...

Tony

[don heath]

I think I can say I have lived through one. On friday 17th >Nov '97 our currency devalued 70% and continued to fall. We went from 2US$ = 1 Z$ in 1980 to 1US Cent = Z$1,0000000000000000000000 - the second highest inflation rate on record (10x that of Germany in the 1920's). - Government implimented price controls...Gas could only be sold at about US 2 cents a gal...so you couldn't buy fuel (legally).  Shops just had rows of empty shelves because you were only allowed to sell anything at a massive loss.
 
Those with money and brains got much richer- they supplied the (illegal) fuel and food and everything else needed. The poor....just got poorer but there was no mass migration to the rural areas and government maintains food handouts along with a heavy police and army brutality to keep control. The biggest loosers really were the middle class and the old folk- the government nationalised all pensions and ceased paying them, salaries denominated in Zim $ fell until somebody like a teacher was too poor to ride a bycycle to work- only the corrupt in the civil service maintained any semblance of middle class lifestyle - and a few with something to offer got very rich. Medical services became something only afordable for the rich and the rich were able to employ plenty of 'security guards' to look after their 4x4's and sat TV's etc. My folks lost everything, my wife (a teacher) stopped work...after 12 years we are moving forward again - slowly. The adoption of a currency that the govenrment couldn't print (the US $) has bought stability and a sence of value to what folk earn...but minimum wage is down around the $30 a month ...well down from the US $120 a month in 1980...but well up for the3 US 1$ a month that it was when the country finally abandoned it own currency.
 
And you would be amaized who and how well folk adapt. I ran my bikes on pure ethanol, my trucks (and wifes) ran on illegal diesel, Bio Diesel, Reject jet A1 from the airport...I didn't study Chemistry at University only as an aside to biology but hell making fuel isn't rocket science. Getting a modern truck to run on essentially low grade fuel is a trick but there is always a mechanic with a plan and on his way to wealth ( ). Sure, our cell phones (or land lines) don't often work. Internet is a bit of a hit or miss situation but somebody always makes a plan if you can keep stability...and free food handouts is a great way to hold city folk in place and keep them calm.
 
The US has essentially gone bankrupt twice already (once when they nationalised the gold currency and then devalued by 70% in 1932 and when you came off the gold standard and allowed the currency to devalue from US $34,5 and oz to 100 and oz in a few months.) I am pretty sure some of the real money in washington will have a plan to ensure that they survive with their liestyle unafected and socio political stability in place (might be rocky- look at greece) but the insitutions will survive. 

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Don, unfortunately your explanation is far too commonsensical for most survivalist forums.  Most folks on the forums are preparing for fending off roving mobs of starving maniacs while slurping down can after can of green beans and MRE desserts. 


Alan

[BUGEYE]

Don, unfortunately your explanation is far too commonsensical for most survivalist forums.  Most folks on the forums are preparing for fending off roving mobs of starving maniacs while slurping down can after can of green beans and MRE desserts. 


Alan

and what's wrong with preparing for anything?  unless your crystal ball has given you some foreknowledge.

[SHOOTALL]

The only thing I can see causing a scenario like this would be either a deadly new virus that spreads faster than the world can prepare for it or a big chunk of rock from space.    Neither of these is very likely.  People seem to bounce back from all other disasters in a few to several years.

Japan just went through about the worst natural disaster the world has seen in quite awhile and I'll bet they're back to normal in less than 10 years.  Here in the pacific northwest, we're a bit over 30 years past a volcano eruption and most of the time no one talks about it...

Tony

Much of Japans industry is moving to other countries due to the cost of power now that the nuke plants are not working and energy cost where aval. is more expensive. I doubt they ever fully recover.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I would guess that a can of beans will be worth more then a bar of gold when the store shelves are empty. Gold for the most part would be worthless as would paper money which is almost there now!

Don, unfortunately your explanation is far too commonsensical for most survivalist forums.  Most folks on the forums are preparing for fending off roving mobs of starving maniacs while slurping down can after can of green beans and MRE desserts. 


Alan

and what's wrong with preparing for anything?  unless your crystal ball has given you some foreknowledge.

[SHOOTALL]

People with skills and an attitude to survive will become leaders and maybe rich . Of course rich won't be mesured in gold or cash.