End of the World as we know it.....?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Oh, there's not a thing wrong with being prepared, and those green beans will get eaten either way, but the end of the world scenarios probably won't play out like it's the end of the world.  Unless of course it really is.  Regular stuff like financial collapse, crop failure, pandemic probably won't bring out the Zombie in anyone.  Nuclear War, Comets, meteorites, gigantic volcanic eruptions or other massive, worldwide tectonic activity or a worldwide pandemic might do it but financial ruin won't. 


As long as nations can field a loyal military our green beans are safe.  Our guns and ammo probably won't be.



Alan

[Dixie Dude]

EMP's are very real from rogue nations.  Iran and N. Korea have already launched satelites.  They can launch a nuclear bomb and have it explode in space over the US.  We have nothing to stop that.  We might not know if it is a nuke or just a satelite until it is too late.  An EMP in the 1850's from a large solar flare shut down the telegraph lines in the US and England.  Today they can shut down approxmately 50% of the vehicles in the US based on a show I saw on Discovery about EMP's.  They can shut down computers and electrical circuits.  With trucking shut down to about half strength, people in inner cities will not get enough food and fuel, power may be out, as well as cell phones, land lines, TV and Cable.  The average family in inner cities have only a 3 day supply of food as well as most grocery stores and unless trucking is maintained people will go hungry.  This is a real posibility as we are overdue for a big solar flare.

Economic Colapse of the US.  We are 15 trillion in debt, at 20 trillion the taxes collected will only pay for the interest on the debt.  Taxing every penny of every millionaire and billionare will only add about 10% extra to the taxes collected.  Class warfare isn't real, it is only a political ploy by Obama.  In about 5 years, the only way to pay off the national debt is print money causing hyper inflation which will probably cause a run on the banks, and food and fuel will be out of sight.  We will then be like Greece and we won't have anyone to bail us out.  This will happen unless brakes are put on spending. 

New Madrid earthquake.  This is also a real possibility.  We are also overdue for this quake.  In 1811 the quake caused the Mississippi to flow backwards for awhile and it was felt all the way to the east coast.  Today, it could cause bridges to colapse over the Mississippi as well as broken natural gas, oil, oropane, and gasoline pipelines, thus depriving the eastern Midwest, east coast and New England of fuel and some food.  Barges can only carry so much. 
Any of these three are a distinct possibility.  The economic colapse is coming, unless someone like Ron Paul is elected, or someone with common sense to cut enough to make a difference.  The other two will come eventually and we don't know when. 
So, we must prepare for any possibility, even if it sounds stupid.  Groceries have gone up about 10% in one year.  This is a fact.  It is better to invest in food, than in the stock market.  Lead and powder are other storage possibilities.  Moving as far away from big cities as possible is another preparation if you can.  Knowing your neighbors, and who you can convince to store food.  Pay off bills, stockpile food, and prepare.  Try to convince your families to prepare.  The more people who prepare, the better chance we all have to survive through it.  We may not have the worst case senario, and it will probably be about half as bad in real life.  But, it could be very bad. 

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Pay off bills?  You mean after the SHTF, Bank of America is going to start with the harassing phone calls!?  Really, anything short of Armageddon is going to be short term and localized.  Even with a catastrophe like Katrina, help is still on the way within days.  Even then most of the folks were content to sit in the Super Dome and live in their own filth while waiting for someone to come get them so they wouldn't get their feet wet. 


Again, being prepared is not a bad thing but being prepared for the right thing is more important than just having a stock of food and toilet paper.  My brother-in-law stayed in NO after Katrina.  He was essentially cut off from getting out and from anyone getting in.  He lived comfortably for two weeks with no preparation at all other than what he had on hand.  His neighbor did have a small generator that they ran inside a room of his house to cover the noise and they blacked out their windows.  They had lights, AC, refrigerator and most importantly the Water system still worked where they were.  Without water, you'd better be prepared to bug out before the SHTF.  They got real lucky in that regard because without water ......... So mobility is going to be key.  Not near enough of us have a water well in our back yards and those who do don't have enough bullets to keep it very long.


The truth is that our politicians already have their own safety net set up.  They are still going to be in control after the smoke clears and they are going to sell out to whomever in order to keep theirs.  Ours will be a temporary moment of chaos between masters.  We like to think of ourselves as free but we always have been and always will be subjects, either of a King or of a King of our own design. If all else fails the Blue Helmets will show up to "Help" us. 




An EMP from Iran or Korea?  I just can't see an orbit bound rocket getting very far off the ground from either of those two countries right now.  They may have put up a satellite but right now they're being watched pretty closely and we'll just send them another stealth drone to keep them busy if they look like they're going to light the fuse on a rocket.


Of course all of this is just conjecture and speculation because we know that Obama is going to save us from ourselves at the last minute!


Alan

[teamnelson]

Of course all of this is just conjecture and speculation because we know that Obama is going to save us from ourselves at the last minute!

I love that ... sadly many in the US don't get that its a joke.
 
As for EMP, as we pulled into port yesterday I was up on the bridge (one of my duties as Chaplain is to escort the Bar and Tug pilots as we transit to/from the pier) so I got to see a lot of shipping traffic. I hung out with our security officer, who was rapidly aging trying to cover all the force protection issues, and I speculated aloud "what if one of those transport carriers had a small yield nuke aboard?" Suffice it to say, the 2nd and 3rd order effects of such a thing would make Katrina look like a house flood - never mind the primary effect (i.e. the explosion itself).
 
China is in production of a tested missile delivery system that externally resembles a standard shipping container, and can be remotely activated anywhere in the world. This is the system hypothesized about in the book One Second After, and its now a reality. There are only a handful of targets for which such a system makes sense, and most of them are the US. They've also developed a carrier killer missile. While I was finishing war college just a few years ago, we discussed a multi-phased attack involving neutralization of our surface fleet and airpower, combined with some HEMP on our mainland, at a time when our nation lacked the political, economic and social strength to respond effectively. Not intended as a precursor to invasion - just pushing us back into a box so we're no longer in the way. For reference, US military policy is 2/3 pacific focus now and into the future.
 
So I don't think our future is going to be determined by a single event at all. There will be natural and manmade causes, and the extent of foreign involvement will be limited as really no one wants to invade - they just want us out of their lives, so if we're doing a good job all by ourselves - political/social/economic strife, moral collapse, civil disruption, financial destruction - they'll just stand back, and maybe add a little kerosene to our self-made fire.
 
 

[Dixie Dude]

Glenn Beck said on O'riley show that we will be like Greece this summer about August.  Lots of people out of work, lots of young people can't find jobs.  Obama has them blaming Wall Street and the rich.  Good time for him to declare Martial Law just before the elections. 

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I still have faith in America and in Americans.  A declaration of Martial Law by the little puppet up in DC is going to set a precedent for future Presidents in using that Declaration lightly.  There are still way more Americans, both in and out of Government, than there are rabble or rabble rousers.  Glen is selling ratings, don't ever forget that.  The weatherman always forecasts gloom and doom in anticipation of drizzle or a light rain.  We will never be like Greece.  I really do think that even the craziest of the crazies know that any sort of nuclear attack on the US would generate a reciprocation so strong and abrupt that they would certainly be in a very crowded paradise entertaining a short supply of virgins by nightfall.  Barak Obama holds a very precarious (approx) 50% approval rating with 40% of those disapproving doing so "strongly".  An attack on the US or economic collapse would not strengthen his position at all. 


Oh well, off to work.


Alan

[blind ear]

I still have faith in America and in Americans.  A declaration of Martial Law by the little puppet up in DC is going to set a precedent for future Presidents in using that Declaration lightly.  There are still way more Americans, both in and out of Government, than there are rabble or rabble rousers.  Glen is selling ratings, don't ever forget that.  The weatherman always forecasts gloom and doom in anticipation of drizzle or a light rain.  We will never be like Greece.  I really do think that even the craziest of the crazies know that any sort of nuclear attack on the US would generate a reciprocation so strong and abrupt that they would certainly be in a very crowded paradise entertaining a short supply of virgins by nightfall.  Barak Obama holds a very precarious (approx) 50% approval rating with 40% of those disapproving doing so "strongly".  An attack on the US or economic collapse would not strengthen his position at all. 


Oh well, off to work.


Alan

Whom do you designate as "Americans" and whom do you designate as "rabble rousers"? Will your perspective be different from that of the enforcement agencies?
 
ear

[Dixie Dude]

What if we have a New Madrid earthquake and it downs bridges, and pipelines supplying the north east?  What might happen.  No grain from the plains states for bread unless shipped far north or far south around it.  Supplies of food could be limited and/or more costly. 
 
What if we have the overdue solar flare that knocks out power, phones, cell phones, and half the vehicles in America.  Again food would be in short supply. 
 
The guy in New Orleans probably should have had a couple of water filters for fresh water since they could have filtered the river flood water for potable water.  Yes, water might be in short supply, but if you have a creek, or other means of supply.  On the "Doomsday Preppers" show, they had water bags, that you place in a tub and fill from the tub before the water gets turned off.  Can store about 200 gallons that way.  If you have multiple tubs, more water.  These bags are used a lot in Florida for water storage before a hurricane hits.  With a good water supply and/or a good filtration system, and enough food, the guy could have lasted months.  One must think of every senario and plan for it. 
 
I don't think you need a 25 year supply of food, but a year, maybe two.  Canned goods and frozen foods can last 2 years.  I just ate some vacuum sealed deerburger that was 3 years old, and it was still good and red. 
 
Diesel fuel can store for about 10 years.  Gasoline about 2 without Staybil.  A small diesel generator would be nice with enough fuel to run it about 4 hours a day for quite a while, just enough to keep refrigerators and freezers working.  If not a small (minimum size) 8,000 watt generator can carge a freezer and refrigerator and run a 240 v airconditioner if needed, not at the same time.  Gasoline can be stored in 55gallon drums, but it needs to be rotated.  Diesel is easier.  Kerosene is even easier, much longer lasting, like 25 years.
 
Any dry goods can store in a cool dry place, sealed, for years.  Canned goods for about 2 years, unless it is sweet.  Smoked cured hams can store for a long time withou refrigeration.  $20 extra each time you get paid can go a long ways for prepping. 
 
Guns, ammo, toilet paper, can store indefinately.  Toilet paper will always be needed. 
 
I believe we will have an economic colapse caused by hyper inflation from excessive government spending within about 5 years, especially if Obama stays in office.  This may cause panic, especially in the cities, that may spew out into the suburbs and countryside.  Martial law might be imposed.  Confiscation of guns and food by government might be in order, so keep it low key, especially around neighbors, or move to the country. 

[Pat/Rick]

Team Nelson, thankyou chaps!  Though military may be called to suppress unrest I to doubt that many would fire on their own countrymen. Some would/some wouldn't. I have never been able to find out if any troopers refused to take part in the policing of the Bonus Army Marchers. I would suspect that any refusal would have been met at the unit level and not public knowledge.
 
We were told in the early 70's that we might be called up for riot duty if the need arose. Also, we were asked by our NCO's to think of the possibility of live ammo use. I resolved that for me, I would turn in all ammo issued despite charges. I am most happy to never have had the chance to find out. The military is not the enemy and know the contents of their oaths.
 
Blind Ear, yep.
 
Don heath, again i thankyou for relating your real world experiences. You are a teacher.
 
With the fed planning to devalue the dollar 33% in the next ten years, stocking the pantry is just a good idea that may yield a return better than any 401, or IRA will. Me? I choose to prepare for hard times. I grew up poor and with determination, hard work, and God's help, my family and I have been blessed with adequate life style and abundance. If my preps are never needed I can pay back by donating to food banks or less fortunate.

[Dixie Dude]

Pat/Rick, where did you hear of the devaluing of the dollar by 33% over 10 years?  This is one way the government can pay back loans.  It is an inflation tax on us though. 

[SHOOTALL]

The US Military shooting Americans ? If a segment of America socity gets out of control and becomes a danger to other Americans will our military have a choice ? Would we rather they stand by and watch Americans kill other Americans ?

[bilmac]

Dixie.  Your hyperinflation prediction is almost exactly like mine. If Obama gets reelected I figgure about one year. Even if we get a good republican government, I think we are already past the point of no return and maybe we have 4 or 5 years.

Those of us who are retired will be in a world of hurt. You can bet that retirement benefits will not begin to keep up, that is why the Gvt. is devalueing the currency, to cancel out the debt.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Blind Ear, I can tell the difference.  But, what I was referring to was that Americans will practice civil disobedience in the face of martial law declared by this president.  Too many people know what he's up to and he won't be able to make it stick.  The military won't back him because they don't respect him and what he's done to the office.  It will set a precedence of disobedience and insubordination that we will never recover from.  Today many Americans, while they love their country, do not trust nor respect their government.


Alan

[blind ear]

Blind Ear, I can tell the difference.  But, what I was referring to was that Americans will practice civil disobedience in the face of martial law declared by this president.  Too many people know what he's up to and he won't be able to make it stick.  The military won't back him because they don't respect him and what he's done to the office.  It will set a precedence of disobedience and insubordination that we will never recover from.  Today many Americans, while they love their country, do not trust nor respect their government.


Alan

Civil disobedience is descriptive of people rebelling against things they disagree with, that doesn't mean the civilians are wrong it means that they disagree with what the government dictates.
 
If the civilians are right and the military supports them then the traditional values are served.
 
At this point bring in international forces such as the UN forces that are being authorized by the current administration and the enforcers of the "martial law" commands are from such forces things change. The gun line may not reflect our traditional values.
 
ear

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

We are probably talking about the same thing. When the blue helmets show up, the rules change.

Alan

[blind ear]

If it comes to that, and history shows that the worst can and does happen, we will be living a worst nightmare. ear

[Dixie Dude]

Prepare for the worst, hope and pray for the best.  Food, Water, Fire, Shelter are the 4 basic necessities of life.
 
Food, build up a supply of food, then rotate it out with new as you use it.  Then learn how to hunt, fish, trap, and learn what wild plant life is eatable and medicinal in your area, a book with pictures is useful.  Then learn to garden and get a supply of non-hybrid seeds for long term SHTF situation.  None of this is expensive.  $20 extra a month on storable foods will get you a years supply in just a few months.  I feel as if a 2 year supply for you and your family is a minimum.
 
Water, have some potable water stored.  Have a nearby stream to get a supply form.  Buy a portable water filter, tablets, and/or a way to boil the water for sterilization.  Have a well if possible.  Most towns have a 3 day supply in their water tanks.  The make "hurricane" bags that fit in your bathtub and can hold 50-100 gallons of water, you fill from your tub faucet.  If you know something is happening, fiil it with water as one of your first options.  The portable filter is nice and you can pack in a backpack.  Filters usually last about 200 gallons before cleaning with clean water and or changing filters, depending on brand.
 
Fire, a way to cook, make drinking water sterile, heat, and protection.  This can be a backup gas/propane/firewood/or fuel oil supply.  Gas stove/wood stove.  Or a way to make a fire in the wild.  Propane and kerosene/fuel oil will keep a long time.  I work for a natural gas company and all our supplies will keep going even with computers or power down.  Will have to be monitored in the field for safety and verification of pressures.  You are about 100 times more likely to loose power than natural gas. 
 
Shelter.  This whether you bug in or bug out, be prepared either way.  If bugging out in the woods, you need to be prepared to go on foot with a backpack or maybe a mountain bike.  I recommend a lightweight hammock for shelter, fire starting materials, and a way to purify water as a minimum.  A way to hunt, fish, and trap is also a must as well as knowing the eatable and medicinal plants.  Also, you need to be as far away from civilization as possible, because woods near populated areas will quickly run out of food. 
 
Start small, work up. 

[BUGEYE]

we have all the usual stuff hoarded, plus about 130 oz of silver if the dollar goes kapoot.
if street riots occur, we hope all our stuff will make us welcome at a small town south of here that's full of good old boys.
I pray that it won't ever happen.

[SHOOTALL]

Blind Ear, I can tell the difference.  But, what I was referring to was that Americans will practice civil disobedience in the face of martial law declared by this president.  Too many people know what he's up to and he won't be able to make it stick.  The military won't back him because they don't respect him and what he's done to the office.  It will set a precedence of disobedience and insubordination that we will never recover from.  Today many Americans, while they love their country, do not trust nor respect their government.Isn't that the way it was intended ?


Alan

[Pat/Rick]

Pat/Rick, where did you hear of the devaluing of the dollar by 33% over 10 years?  This is one way the government can pay back loans.  It is an inflation tax on us though.

There was  a "Yahoo" news article on it. IIRC, it was mon or tue 13/14th.  If that does happen, food purchased now will yield a better return than a 401.

[Mxpe78a]

Well I guess the first way to prepare is to shop around for insurance. All the threads say that.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not for killing fellow americans either but I have to ask WHY you joined the military if you werent willing to do what you swore to do. That is obey the orders of your superiors. If everyone in the military gets to decide for themselves when to pull the trigger and when not to. When to go into battle and when to run we sure as hell arent going to have much of a military to protect the civilian population. How is it majicaly your call to decide what is right and wrong and what is ethical and what isnt. In just about every military conflict people who dont deserve to die die. Many times things are known that the privates and sargents arent privy to. Bottom line is when you join the miltary you take an oath and if your not willing to obey that oath you have no business taking it. Last time i heard that oath it didnt have a clause in it that said i could refuse if i dont politicaly agree or i get a bit squeemish. Best hope that if you are even in the crap that your  buddy next to you doesnt all of a sudden decide hes not going to shoot. Go ahead and turn in your ammo. Ill keep mine thank you. Because chances are the people your going to refuse to shoot and are trying to protect are probably going to shoot you dead!

Team Nelson, thankyou chaps!  Though military may be called to suppress unrest I to doubt that many would fire on their own countrymen. Some would/some wouldn't. I have never been able to find out if any troopers refused to take part in the policing of the Bonus Army Marchers. I would suspect that any refusal would have been met at the unit level and not public knowledge.
 
We were told in the early 70's that we might be called up for riot duty if the need arose. Also, we were asked by our NCO's to think of the possibility of live ammo use. I resolved that for me, I would turn in all ammo issued despite charges. I am most happy to never have had the chance to find out. The military is not the enemy and know the contents of their oaths.
 
Blind Ear, yep.
 
Don heath, again i thankyou for relating your real world experiences. You are a teacher.
 
With the fed planning to devalue the dollar 33% in the next ten years, stocking the pantry is just a good idea that may yield a return better than any 401, or IRA will. Me? I choose to prepare for hard times. I grew up poor and with determination, hard work, and God's help, my family and I have been blessed with adequate life style and abundance. If my preps are never needed I can pay back by donating to food banks or less fortunate.

[reliquary]

 
No disparagement to you (y'all?), Pat/Rick, but I agree with Lloyd.  I was in an active duty riot control force in the mid-to-late 60s and would have shot anyone who stood between me and my getting home.  Whether ordered to, or not.  And I knew which ones of my troops would shoot, and which ones wouldn't, and I made sure that my RTO and driver were of the former attitude.
 
 

[AtlLaw]

Nope, American troops would never fire on unarmed Americans... 
 
 

[BUGEYE]

I guess I have more faith in our military.  we've learned a lot since kent state.

[Dixie Dude]

My son is in the national guard.  During last year's tornado damage, he was on duty.  They carry their weapons, but they are not loaded.  Ammo is in the vehicles, and can only be issued if they are in imminent danger.  He said there were no looters, mostly gaukers into areas damaged.  You had to show them ID and that you lived on the street(s) they were guarding to get in certain areas. 

[Pat/Rick]

Yep, kent state, bonus machers have been fired on by military.
 
First and foremost in the oath of enlistment is the defense of the Constitution, the orders of superior officers, and the CIC. The only constant in that oath is defense of the Constitution, NOT the order of a superior to break the law or strip the Constitutional rights from citizens. That is where the part foreign and domestic comes from. Both kent state and the troops involved with the bonus army marchers violated their oath IMO by denying the right to assemble and express grievences as outlined in our Constitution and should not have suffered the hand of military.
 
Lloyd, I served honorably and within constraints of my oath of enlistment, and I have had the riot training as well along with other schools and classes in the military (Airborne Infantry).
Do not question my integrity for the troops, or my nations Constitution again.
 
 

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Well I guess the first way to prepare is to shop around for insurance. All the threads say that.

I wonder if State Farm would actually give a quote on "End of the World" insurance?  Would they pay off in money, gold, green beans or ammo?


Alan

[Lloyd Smale]

Well pat were talking a major end of the world thing here where martial law was declared not a bunch of hippies smoking pot. In the case of the latter the orders would be lawful and youd either do it or face a firing squad yourself. I too served and it served was taught that disobeying or even hesitating in following orders would likely result in my fellow soldiers dieing. Again i will say in my opinion if you arent willing to follow orders you dont belong in the military. to me is kind of like the yuppies who sign up for the national guard to get free school and then cry when they get called to actualy go in harms way. Sorry but when the cheif or sarg says pop on in your head youd best not be in front of me because i will do my job. I dont personaly believe it would get that bad but when people get hungry enough it just might. a soldier doing his job  sure doesnt threaten the constitution and if you feel my opinion  threatens your integerty just put me on your ignore list.

Yep, kent state, bonus machers have been fired on by military.
 
First and foremost in the oath of enlistment is the defense of the Constitution, the orders of superior officers, and the CIC. The only constant in that oath is defense of the Constitution, NOT the order of a superior to break the law or strip the Constitutional rights from citizens. That is where the part foreign and domestic comes from. Both kent state and the troops involved with the bonus army marchers violated their oath IMO by denying the right to assemble and express grievences as outlined in our Constitution and should not have suffered the hand of military.
 
Lloyd, I served honorably and within constraints of my oath of enlistment, and I have had the riot training as well along with other schools and classes in the military (Airborne Infantry).
Do not question my integrity for the troops, or my nations Constitution again.

[teamnelson]

Interesting, everyone points to Kent State ... NATIONAL GUARD, not active duty troops. The governor called that one out, and the guardsmen were your neighbors. Point of fact, Kent State indicated the problem with NG troops who had not constitutional reminder, or regular training on ethics, law of war, rules of engagement, etc.


Next one everyone points to, Katrina ... in which no armed Active Duty troops were employed. A handful of AD troops did go afield, unarmed, in support of Army Corps of Engineers, and around affected bases. The disarmament in NO was done by police officers under guidance from the mayor. Even the NG in that area, while armed, did not participate in disarmament ... its all in the record. No TITLE 10 troops were used to violate Posse Comitatus folks.


Because of the nature of the war we've fought for the past decade, our troops are more knowledgeable about human rights and civil rights than any military generation in our history. We fought for the right of every Iraqi and Afghani citizen to maintain a fully automatic AK-47 and ammo in their homes ... let that sink in for minute. I get the impression most here don't know that. Every Iraqi male and I believe every Afghani male, although it might just be head of household, was authorized one AK with ammo, in his home. You better believe all combat troops understand why we did that, because their NCOs were telling them the people had a right to be armed to protect themselves from insurgents and tyranny. No better friend, no worse enemy.


Interesting that all the naysayers seem to have served over 30 years ago, if at all. That was a different time in service, I came in on the tail end of that era and I've watched it turn a corner. Not all changes in service have been bad. I've seen free fire orders in a combat zone against known hostiles argued up and down the chain because the LCpl in the teeth of it saw women and children were at risk. Makes me proud to serve with folks who understand honor. I have no doubt about how they'll perform when given an unconstitutional order. Course there will be some knuckledragger that will scream "remember Kent State" and open fire. Fear does funny things to people, makes them irrational, believe lies, very sad. You know you're bad off when you can't tell friend from foe.