End of the World as we know it.....?

[Lloyd Smale]

When I first came in, my SgtMajors were Vietnam Vets, "lifers," as was my instructor at the Armorer's course ... and really through the 1st Gulf War there were still many in service who came in during Vietnam. They'd been rode hard, and put up wet ... their service had taken a toll, and our nation did not help them much. A toll very similar to that taken on the young men and women who have come in service since 2003, but thankfully our nation seems more grateful. After my first OIF tour in 2006, my wife arranged for us to spend a week in Texas at a retreat for wounded veterans, funded by a charitable organization and coordinated by Vietnam Vets. Our "leaders" were 2 highly decorated SF Vietnam Vets, and a Nurse who served in Vietnam. They were committed to ensure that we did not have to suffer what they did upon return. Words cannot describe how meaningful that experience was for me ... I've since joined the MOPH, and plan to be active in the VFW and USO when I retire. I stand on great shoulders.

I salute you sir! Someone told me once that theres a few good officers

[teamnelson]

In the spirit of getting this back on the thread, when the world as we know it ends ... probably sooner than we'd like ... its good to know there's some good folks out there. May we all live through it to build a better version afterwards.

[Dixie Dude]

Yes, one that actually adheres to the Constitution and limits government. 

[teamnelson]

... adheres to the Constitution and limits government.

But you repeat yourself 

[reliquary]

Gotta get back in this a little...can't let the comments slide about the draftees, because I was one.
 
Got my notice in fall '65, appealed it because I thought I was in a draft-exempt job.  Didn't work; wasn't a "declared" war.  Signed up for an extra year to get into something other than the Infantry.  Didn't work; first time I heard "needs of the service".  But what I found was the niche in life I'd been born for, and stayed for a career, retiring as a Regular Army LtCol.  No one has ever had cause to question my courage, honor, loyalty, or patriotism; nor do I question TNs or anyone else who served honorably.
 
The problem WASN'T the quality of the draftees.  Studies showed there wasn't much difference between them and any other era except WWII...the last "good war".  The problem was that the media turned against the war, the country turned against the war, and the administrations opted for "exit strategies" rather than a quest for victory.  I can't pinpoint an exact turning point, but I know that by mid-'68, the attitude of draftees and enlistees and careerists, alike, changed.  No one trusted the senior leadership of the military or the country.  No one wanted to be the last ones killed in an unpopular war.  Everyone who could, avoided the draft or got into safe assignments.  Those things caused the problems, not the quality of the GIs I was around.  In the early 70s, the problem manifested itself with the rampant drug use, disobedience, and disorder in the ranks.  Many junior officers and NCOs were afraid to go into their unit areas after dark.  Those were symptoms, not the underlying sickness.
 
Hundreds of thousands of midgrade officers, NCOs, and troops were involuntarily released or reduced in grade.  Defense pay, benefits, and programs were cut in order to fund social programs.  Thousands of people who needed treatment for physical and PTSD disorders were turned out to fend for themselves and ignored by the VA.  Isn't it a good thing that no one is trying to do those things again, huh?       
 
After Carter, things began to look up again, and Uncle Ronnie was a good man to serve under.  I retired in '86 because of family issues.  I'm still an ardent patriot.
 
But when times get tough, even otherwise good folks can get caught up in bad things.  That's what I'm afraid of, because I've seen it. 
 
Reliquary...aka     unrepentant knuckledragger. 

[teamnelson]

Hundreds of thousands of midgrade officers, NCOs, and troops were involuntarily released or reduced in grade.  Defense pay, benefits, and programs were cut in order to fund social programs.  Thousands of people who needed treatment for physical and PTSD disorders were turned out to fend for themselves and ignored by the VA.  Isn't it a good thing that no one is trying to do those things again, huh?     

This administration is intent on repeating that mistake, the National Strategic Plan for 2012 was the warning order.


As for quality of recruits, now vs draftees ... I think discipline was a challenge back then, more so than now, at least as I hear it. Of course, some things were more relaxed than others, which I think allowed appropriate outlets. Unit cohesion, comraderie, loyalty were there in greater measure than many units today, save combat troops. If I am blessed again, I'll return to the line and retire from there.


My observation on quality has always been level of commitment, which is germane to the topic I believe. The difference between someone willing to volunteer for 4 full years, and someone who just wants to do it 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year, is huge. It speaks to commitment to the institution, becoming part of the culture, etc. Imagine what your wife would say if you said once the honeymoon was over, you'd see a weekend a month, and on vacation ... hard to call that marriage. Might be very intelligent, very capable, but not as willing to sacrifice as the active duty guy. Sorry, its true. And the National Guard option is a step further away from even that level of commitment as your essentially saying my loyalty is limited by the geographic boundaries of my state. National service is too much for me, but I'll go down to the unit with my fishing buddies and play soldier once a month.


Now many NG units have participated in support roles throughout OIF and OEF, and have represented themselves well. But it was not easy for them, they had a lot of problems trying to get up to speed with AD units, and they were only employed in limited roles within the safety of larger operating bases. Suicide rates in the NG amongst those who went to Iraq are higher than amongst AD units who went outside the wire. Having trained NG units in suicide intervention, its because they were never committed to the big picture in the first place - they wanted to stay close to home, close to family, and maybe pay for school. I know one NG unit ran a brothel down range, according to the area general. Coping for them was more difficult than it was for AD units ... again, it has to do with level of commitment.


The AD volunteer is all in by choice, the AD draftee was all in against his will ... either way, they were all in. That makes all the difference in the world.

[Dixie Dude]

You know, we once did not use NG troops in foreign wars, they were to take care of security and homeland disasters.  We did use them in WWII, but drafted a whole lot of men anyways, just about everyone between 18-35.  Over 35, they stayed home and worked in the factories. 

[bilmac]

I was in Nam. I was an infantryman. I wasn't saying everybody there was a druggie, I didn't do any drugs. But when I was there [late in the war] it seemed like that leadership had given up trying to control the situation.

[Lost Farmboy]

  We all have our own idea of what TEOTWAWKI is and how it will happen. I believe it is being planned by those who are working hard to setup a world government. I think it will be a series of events that seem natural and unrelated. To survive you must be prepared for all of them.


My primary source of information is the Bible. For forty years I have been trying to figure out where. America is in the book of Revelations. How could the plagues and famines could happen with modern farming and medicine?


Second source is the news and what's happening around the world. Bird and swine flu scares? Genetically modified crops are setting a stage for major crop failures. With the spending habits of our government financial collapse is inevitable. RFID, 666? Small arms treaty? Some are predicting an attack on Iran will cause WWIII.


I believe biological weapons will be used on crops, farm animals and humans. It is already happening.


The financial collapse as in “Patriots” is close to happening world wide. EMP as in “One Second After” is a smaller possibility, but possible. TEOTWAWKI may be so slow most of us will not see it happening. It could be happening right now and picking up speed.


I think survival will need to be in stages. If you are in a city, you will need a place in the country to go to. If you live in the country you may have to bug in for a while. Eventuality it will be necessary to bug out of the country retreat. In the finale stages I believe those that can not survive in a wilderness ( swamp, forest or mountains) indefinitely without resupply will not survive.

[teamnelson]

Pretty grim, but not as far fetched as I used to think. I was blessed to live with my family in Djibouti for a bit, before it became a base, as missionaries. 3rd world ain't no joke, bleached our water, infrequent power, self doctor, self dentist. My wife quit sifting bugs from the flour, more protein. Our kids did fine, but many their age died of diarrhea, not to be crude. I told them then that our nation was on a path that would take us there. It's been 10 years since I said it, and I think I was right.

We may surprise ourselves though - yeah, America ain't in the Bible. We're not important to the story of course. But nothing say we won't be there to see it unfold.

[bilmac]

End times prophecy is about Israel, us Christians will be gone. But lots of nations are mentioned, but not Israel's ally, the major super power in the world? My take on that is that the US won't be a world power any more, and won't be Israel's ally.

[Lloyd Smale]

My take on it is that it probably isnt going to happen in one big catostopic event. Sure a nuke or emp or metor hit could happen but whats more likely to happen is happening right now. the earths population is outgrowing its ability to feed itself very quickly. This is allreay showing itself in the price of products. Things like food, gas, medical supplys ect all have a limit as to how much can be made and distributed. It will soon come to the point that boughten food and medicine will be for the rich only and even that wont last long as when it gets that bad total economic collapse will occur and the money and gold the rich have wont be worth a thing. bottom line is very few can afford to put a stock pile of food and water away that will last his family to old age and then what about your kids kids that arent even born yet?
 
We can talk trash about how we will become self sufficiant but that is just a dream too. How many of us are young enough or in good enough shape to farm without machinery? Not me! Even if you are where are you majicaly going to get the horses plows seed ect to do it. If you allready have it your a bit better off but the horse will eventually die. So unless your also going to bread animals your plan is short term at best. You also have to survive a half a year till your first crop comes. Another thing that isnt factored is that back when our ancestors did this there was land available and hardly a fraction of the people we have now. Even if you do have 10 acres of good farm land which is probably a minimum to support a family ( still not near enough if you have livestock or horses) how do you plan to defend it. Youd about have to have fortress walls with guards on them to protect it. Sure you can run a couple guys off that want so potatoes but what happens when 50 starving people show up armed? Also you need to keep in mind that those who do farm now do so with artificial fertilzers that wont be available. Most of the land they farm wont grow crops without it anymore.
 
Survival is about impossible anymore. The best a guy can hope for is to get by for maybe two years and hope that the economy or the eviromental issue that cause the collaspe will fix itself but just keep in mind that during that 2 years the population has probably increased another 5-10 percent. What do you think all those people "bugged in" are going to be doing to pass the nights!!! Bottom line is its almost like revelations. The lucky ones will be called up in the initial few months. The rest will be left to suffer a slower death. But dont be mistaken your time will come. If there was a quick fix for this world that could be done in a couple years dont you think it would have been implimented allready!!
 
Hows that for a saturday morning rant!!!

[reliquary]

 
The end, as I see it, will be financially-based.  Collapse of the markets, Big Brother unable to care for and feed the dependents he's created, cities go under, whole country in turmoil.  How that collapse is precipitated...several paths:
 
Nuke/dirty weapon/EMP bomb in DC or NY financial district...pretty farfetched at present, but would collapse everything.
 
If Israel (or anyone) bombs Iran's nuclear facilities, I see the Middle East going up in flames, which will cut off oil supplies.  That will collapse the financial markets.
 
Unsustainable debt and uncontrolled spending will result in financial collapse. 
 
Whatever the cause, the result will be country-wide chaos and individuals must prepare to be as self-sufficient as possible for a minimum of 6 months to more likely a year: 
 
Seeds for some sort of garden,the larger the better.
 
Stored food and supplies including hand tools and push plows.
 
Defensive supplies...the hungry homeless won't be the "good guys" of the Great Depression, they'll be starving crazoids.
 
Barter goods and metals.
 
Supplies for canning and otherwise storing/preserving food.
 
 
 
 

[teamnelson]

One of the speculations in the book Soft Apocalypse is that innovation will not cease. You hear sometimes that someone's already solved some major problem like cancer or how to run a car on water, but Big Business bought it and is sitting on it. Perhaps we'd reach a point where a microbiologist saves the day by releasing a self reproducing algae that nutrifies our tired soil so we can eat. Stranger things have happened, but don't bet on it. What you can bet on is absence of hygiene and sanitation which is the primary reason for our relatively good health. Take that away and millions, especially children, will die ... no hand sanitizer, clean water, hot water, soap, TP. Community health is the first thing the govt of Somaliland wanted when I met with their Health minister, an MD from Italy. I prep heavy towards that for my family, and one way is to not use it so much now so your body is more resilient.

[BUGEYE]

soap and toothpaste are two of the things we hoard.

[Lloyd Smale]

just another reason why i dont want to be around much more then a couple years. I about cant live without my daily shower!!! Not so anal that i run around using hand santizers but i sure like my shower!!! It would no doubt be a daunting task just to keep a family clean when you have to hand pump the water or carry it and heat it with wood. Wed be back to once a month bathing like our grandfathers did when they were kids. By the way did i tell you i like clean clothes ever day too!!

One of the speculations in the book Soft Apocalypse is that innovation will not cease. You hear sometimes that someone's already solved some major problem like cancer or how to run a car on water, but Big Business bought it and is sitting on it. Perhaps we'd reach a point where a microbiologist saves the day by releasing a self reproducing algae that nutrifies our tired soil so we can eat. Stranger things have happened, but don't bet on it. What you can bet on is absence of hygiene and sanitation which is the primary reason for our relatively good health. Take that away and millions, especially children, will die ... no hand sanitizer, clean water, hot water, soap, TP. Community health is the first thing the govt of Somaliland wanted when I met with their Health minister, an MD from Italy. I prep heavy towards that for my family, and one way is to not use it so much now so your body is more resilient.

[Lloyd Smale]

that and lots of toliet paper. I buy a big pack of tp to put away every month when we go shoping. I dont relish using leaves or snow!! Rather then toothpaste consider buying baking soda. It can be used for tooth paste, for an antacid, a cleaner, and many ohter things.

soap and toothpaste are two of the things we hoard.

[teamnelson]

In Somalia they use a stick for a toothbrush, from a particular bush, that has been tested and the sap has some kind of anti-bacterial utility. I'd like to grow a bush of that in my yard, and you'd be set. A 6" stick of that lasts for quite a while, as you chew on it, the end frays like a stiff paintbrush, so you get brush, toothpick and paste all in one. They have some of the best teeth in the horn of africa ... or would if they didn't chew Khat. Seriously though, if I find out the name of that bush, I'm gonna try to plant one here.


Found it: Arak (Salvadorapersica) has anti-streptococcal microbes and is the most common. Anybody know what that might be sold as here in the US? After that would be Rhus vulgaris and Lantana trifolia ... the first one is a form of poison ivy I think.

As I moved about the battlespace in Iraq, I liked to stay a few days at each patrol base, which was most often an abandoned house with no utilities. You get real creative with hygiene and sanitation out there ... and you get cellulitis, simple cuts don't heal real fast, and get infected easily. A hot shower and clean set of cammies became the stuff of legend. Access to regular hygiene is going to separate the weak from the strong, mentally as well as physically. Some women and a growing number of men will probably have a melt down when their hair products run out.

[bilmac]

I see the demise of the US pretty much as Reliquary. The government will try to solve crazy debt problems by printing money[they already are]. That will spawn hyper inflation. Workers will get disinchanted and  vital things like the power grid and law enforcement will fail. I'm not as pessimistic as Lloyd, I think neighbors will band together, maybe counties with good sheriffs will make a start at putting things back together. Along in there somewhere is when I expect to see the rapture.

[Lloyd Smale]

Bilmac Id hope so too but i just cant see a way to feed all the people. Anyone of us that has been storing food knows how much it would take to last for say 6months till the first crop could be taken in. Now mulitply that amount of food needed by the population of a small town. Theres just no town that stores that much food and really no way to do it in most towns even if they wanted to. The die off from starvation in just the first six months will be staggering. Then you have to deal with a sanitory way to dispose of all those bodys and like teamnelson said you have to keep yourself germ free in a world with decaying corpses and no public sanitation or running water.
 
I Just cant see what  little groups banded together are going to do unless your isolated and have extensively planned for somethng big. Youd have to have farmable land ready and the equiptment to farm it. Biggest problem is there isnt one person in a 1000 that has enough disposable income to ever begin to get properly prepared to survive for the long term. What you have for the most part is people like me that are looking at months up to many a year or two. It wouldnt even make sense for most like me to try to band together as all that would mean is my food would go to people who didnt want to make the sacrifices to put stuff away for themselves. I will barely have the food and medical supplys need for my family and sure dont have them for yours.
 
Hell just the cold of the first winter will probably take care of about 75 percent of the people up here. A big advantage to you southern guys. I know i sound depressing and everything is negative but to be honest im not one of the people that say they welcome this crap. I know that most of them are dreamers and will be some of the first dead. How many will be actually able to take a life when it comes down to it and do it without hesitating. Id bet not many. My friend of mine asked me what kind of guns he should get and what I told him is after a few weeks theres going to be wanabe comandos and guns laying around everywhere. Buy some rubber gloves and a resperator so you dont catch something when your taking it off that dead corpse. the survivors will be the people who can live invisible to the others around them. 

I see the demise of the US pretty much as Reliquary. The government will try to solve crazy debt problems by printing money[they already are]. That will spawn hyper inflation. Workers will get disinchanted and  vital things like the power grid and law enforcement will fail. I'm not as pessimistic as Lloyd, I think neighbors will band together, maybe counties with good sheriffs will make a start at putting things back together. Along in there somewhere is when I expect to see the rapture.

[teamnelson]

Buy some rubber gloves and a resperator so you dont catch something when your taking it off that dead corpse.

Sage advice right there ... I often think of a line from the movie, We were soldiers once. Someone offered the WWII and Korean War vet SgtMajor one of the new fangled M16s, and he said "no, when I need one there'll be plenty on the ground to choose from." Very few of the folks I know who've been in an actual shooting war and survived are participating in the "which upper do I need for my AR" conversations.
Biggest problem in a collapse is disposing of refuse, or you get vermin and disease. Collapse is in waves: primary event, triggers secondary effects, roll into tertiary effects. Haiti had an earthquake with significant initial damage, but more people died in the aftermath than the event, due to poor sanitation and medical care, unclean drinking water and nutrition, and violence. That's a pattern true of every major event, to include Japan, although they televised little of it. So a pack of nitrile gloves and some breathing masks, safety goggles ... a water purifier, not just filter, rated to remove virii. I think those will be more handy in the type of collapse we're facing than even than an extra 5000 rounds of .22lr on top of the 20K already packed away. Gotta get through the first 6 months to live to use the other stuff.

[charles p]

Surely we have enough comic book characters to chase away the evil Arabs and greedy Wall Street bankers. 
I for one am glad our FBI and CIA are keeping an eye on US and foreign threats.  We have the wherewithall to stop a lot of aggressors.  Let's hope America never gets blind sided again.  Pearl Harbor and 9/11 have taught two different generations what can happen if we falter on your defense.
I was a college student in the 60's.  Did everything possible to stay out of the Army and Nam.  Almost drafted in 65 but got another extension.  Got in the CG Reserve in 67.  Hated it, but oh what parties we did have on drill weekends.  Wound up staying for 27 years and retiring as Lieutenant Commander.  Made so many good friends I didn't want to retire.  The military certainly taught me a lot about myself, and I feel I am a much better person for the opportunity I had to serve our nation.
 
 

[bilmac]

I guess you look at things from an urban perspective while I am looking at a rural setting. When it is 20 miles to the grocery store you have a big pantry. I think we could last several months just on what is in the pantry. Probably get pretty skinny, but look at the pilgrims. They were surviving on a few kernals of corn a day before spring arrived.

[teamnelson]

I guess you look at things from an urban perspective while I am looking at a rural setting. When it is 20 miles to the grocery store you have a big pantry. I think we could last several months just on what is in the pantry. Probably get pretty skinny, but look at the pilgrims. They were surviving on a few kernals of corn a day before spring arrived.

I live 1/2 mile from the grocery store, and we still keep 6 mos on hand. 1/2 mile may as well be a light year if they shut the base down, and people are at the walls upset, or a hurricane, etc. Read another interesting book, fiction, where a soldier went to his house when the world fell apart, and basically hid from sight for a few months until things got quieter outside. No one knew he was there. I think about that sometimes being presently in an urban environment ... how might we live in our house in such a manner than no one knew we were here. Could probably swing it for several months, by which time hopefully things might be simpler ... not easier, just simpler.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im about as rural as it gets. My pantrys are full and ive got a pretty good stock pile. Probably more then a year for me and my family and im working toward 2 years. Thats if we can stay put and a natural disaster doesnt shove us away from here. Still im no farmer, have no farm machinery, or enough cleared land to farm. Ive got a garden and would get food from that. Meat would be more of a problem as I dont think the deer and other game will last long. Bottom line is im to old to be able to live off the land anymore. Keep in mnd back when people had to live off the land by the time they were 45 they were either dead or wore out. I can remember the storys of the oldtimers up here that worked the cc camps during the depression. They were out all winter cutting wood and lived in one room cabins about the size of my bathroom. they cut wood all day came home ate beans and went to sleep and got up and did it again. They didnt see much of other people until spring breakup when they came to skid out your logs. Cut yourself, sprain or worse yet break your leg, or even catch a cold and you were taken out of the woods in the spring dead when they came looking for you. Who the hell really wants to live that bad anyway.  I guess i have to stand behind my ealier statement that for 99 percent of the people long term survival is a fantacy. Something to talk and laugh about on the survival fourms. I just pray God takes me and my family mercifully.

[reliquary]

 
My mom and dad were just starting out, had three kids born during the Depression years.  He was in the CCC while the lumber mills were shut down.  They never got over it.  We always had a pantry full of jars of food; nothing went to waste.  The saying that TN posted a while back, about making do or doing without, was a lifestyle for us. 
 
The best training for a "prepper" today is to have grown up as a poor Redneck.   
 
Toothpaste:  our local Wal-Mart has 12-pound bags of baking soda in the pool section, ~$8.00 each. Baking soda, a dash of salt, a little flavoring...great field-expedient toothpaste.
 
We buy beans, corn, peas, in case lots when they're on clearance and keep about 300 cans of veggies on hand at any given time.  Plus the stuff that's in the freezer. We are 20 miles from "town".
 
We are the evac point for a lot of family on the Gulf Coast; we've made it a rule (after three storms in 5 years) that anyone who comes, has to bring whatever food they have on hand. 

[Lloyd Smale]

the miracle powder http://lifehackery.com/2008/07/22/home-4/

[charles p]

Someone once asked Albert Einstein what atomic weapons he thought would be used in WWIII.  After a moment, he replied that he was unsure of WWIII but he was sure that in WWIV people would be throwing rocks again.

[Dixie Dude]

Lloyd, I saw on Countryside Magazine, where they made an outside shower with garbage cans painted black and put on a platform about 7-8' high.  They captured rainwater, and also had their well water pumped in.  It sat there all day in he sun, was hot enough to mix with some other fresh water to make a shower underneath the platform.  This would be great in a pinch from spring to fall.  Might even work on sunny winter days if you could glass it in. 

[SHOOTALL]

Dixie Dude , get a roll of either CST or IPS poly tube in 1 or 3/4 inch size . Connect it to your cold water source and leave it in the sun. makes a great water heater . In most cases you will need to mix cold water with it to shower. Better than open can , no bird droppings or water borne critters 
I have made showers out of tanks that campers would set in or near fire to heat, yes they had a T&P valve . they would heat them then hang them to use.