Author Topic: Big bore-Your thoughts please (Read 1980 times)

gunther66 · « **on:** February 11, 2012, 06:56:58 AM »

I am thinking about rechambering a spare 45/70 barrel to 450 Nitro Express #2. Been thinking about it for a while and Tim's 499 Hubel kind of got the wheels turning again.
Anyone here done this? Any Problems or reasons not to? Please don't suggest I go for a 45//900 or other 45/70 based round.Done that already. G66

bikerbeans · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2012, 07:07:42 AM »

gunther,

there have been past threads on this conversion. I think the downside was the high cost of the brass and dies. I think it would be a better conversion on a 32" BC barrel because you could use slower powders and take more advantage of the large case capacity. With that said the .499 HE is on a 22" barrel so I don't think you would be undergunned with the shorter barrel.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2012, 11:19:03 AM »

The 450 NE #2 would work fine, I looked it up in COTW, it was developed to provide the same ballistics as the 450 NE but at lower pressure, breech thrust would be less than a 40kpsi levergun 45-70 load, comparable ballistics to the 458WM, they list two loads for it, a cordite load or 80gr 3031(Dupont at the time, not IMR) 480gr @ 2150fps. Here's a YT video of a fella shooting his double gun using RL22 and 480gr Woodleighs.

Tim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsS8gyvVXNk

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:28:08 PM »

BTW, if you're gonna do this, you'd might want to get the brass while it's available, Jamison Intl went out of business a few months ago, their brass is in good supply now, but it won't be forever.

Tim

gunther66 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »

I wonder what 80 grs 3031 in a 9 1/2 lb (weighted) Handi rifle will do to my shoulder?
Anybody know if cordite can be purchased today?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:37:57 PM »

It's easy to figure out, about the same as a 10lb 10ga shooting 2¼oz loads, 62lbs recoil.

Tim

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

twoshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2012, 03:54:24 PM »

A. employ local high school baseball batting champion.

B. place 2x4 block against your shoulder

C. Have aforementioned youth strike the 2x4 with a 6 pound hammer

mo_bio · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2012, 04:00:40 PM »

Quote from: twoshooter on February 11, 2012, 03:54:24 PM

A. employ local high school baseball batting champion.

B. place 2x4 block against your shoulder

C. Have aforementioned youth strike the 2x4 with a 6 pound hammer

If youare going to load hot then forego step B and go straight to C. I like the idea of big bore handis. Might have to think about one myself.

gunther66 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2012, 04:19:17 PM »

Tim
By the calculator you linked, my duck loads were about 47 lb, so I suppose I will be able to tolerate it. I quit duck hunting in'78 when steel shot was mandated.Just didn't want to give up my doubles.
Seems like brass and reamer are available. Now I'll need to find a 'Smith 'cause I don't think this should be reamed by hand.

knight0334 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2012, 06:08:49 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on February 11, 2012, 11:19:03 AM

The 450 NE #2 would work fine, I looked it up in COTW, it was developed to provide the same ballistics as the 450 NE but at lower pressure, breech thrust would be less than a 40kpsi levergun 45-70 load, comparable ballistics to the 458WM, they list two loads for it, a cordite load or 80gr 3031(Dupont at the time, not IMR) 480gr @ 2150fps. Here's a YT video of a fella shooting his double gun using RL22 and 480gr Woodleighs.

Tim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsS8gyvVXNk

With 3031 being such a slow burning powder - would the OP even get those velocities out of a 22" barrel?

I tried 3031 in my 45-120 BC behind 300, 350, and 405gr bullets and had a hard time getting them anywhere near what IMR-4198 could do and keeping it under 40-45K PSI.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2012, 05:13:05 AM »

Not a lot of difference between IMR3031 and IMR4198, they don't state barrel length in COTW. If RL22 works for the fella shooting the 450 #2 double rifle in the video, IMR3031 surely should work, that barrel doesn't look very long to me! FWIW, QL shows more IMR3031 is needed to reach 2150fps tho, so Dupont 3031 must be different.

Tim

http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2012, 06:35:30 AM »

I would recommend finding someone with a 10ga in a comparable platform and buying a box of shells to try out. If you find you cant really say it is a pleasure you may want to pass. Yeah, it would be cool to say you have one, but if you have to load it down to something way less to actually use it..........?? Its not like having a 427 Cobra where you dont have to put your foot in it when you drive it; each time you touch that puppy off you ARE flooring it.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2012, 07:40:23 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on February 13, 2012, 06:35:30 AM

I would recommend finding someone with a 10ga in a comparable platform and buying a box of shells to try out. If you find you cant really say it is a pleasure you may want to pass. Yeah, it would be cool to say you have one, but if you have to load it down to something way less to actually use it..........?? Its not like having a 427 Cobra where you dont have to put your foot in it when you drive it; each time you touch that puppy off you ARE flooring it.

gcrank,

It's a 45 cal CF rifle with a COL of about 4 inches, of course it doesn't make sense, but it is way cool.

And I bet if it kicks to much to be fun it would not take long to sell that barrel in the classifieds as there are a bunch of us ole farts out here that don't know what's good for us.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2012, 07:55:50 AM »

And at least one young feller, Tyler!

Tim

LedLobber · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:38:44 AM »

Man, I keep looking at this post over and over thinking this would be an Awesome conversion. Then I plug in the load data I think I would like to use and it comes back with 78.28 ft lbs of recoil. Uhhhhh...... Hey gunther66, what are you gonna use this gin for? Are you gonna hit Africa with it, elk gun, just cool to have?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2012, 09:15:41 AM »

I 'urge' rational restraint only in jest, knowing full well it is not likely to be heeded........

Rock On!

gunther66 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2012, 09:46:09 AM »

Hello everyone
I'm too old and worn out to try Africa.If this were not the case I would own a double rifle. I can't really justify a one to use on our little whitetails but I think rechambering to this cartridge is justifiable in a Handi rifle as it should cost maybe 1/20 th the price of a nice double. Thoughts have gone thru my head of getting one of the Russian 45/70's though.
If I am like a lot of you here,we already have enough Handi's that we could shoot a different one each day for a long while.Therefore I wouldn't think recoil is going to be an issue.At least not after the weight is increased up to near 10 lbs.
It looks like the rim thickness is less on the Nitro cartridges than on the 45/70 causing a step in the rim cut.Can this be an issue?
Yes the WOW factor is bound to be a part of the equation. G66

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2012, 10:54:10 AM »

The difference in rim thickness is a moot point, the 450 #2 rim is huge, .650" vs .605" for the 45-70.

Tim

LONGTOM · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2012, 12:02:20 PM »

The 450 #2 really isn't that bad recoil wise.
I say it is a little less that a BPS 10ga with 3.5" #4 buck loads.
The main thing is a good recoil pad and the shape of the stock.
I have found that many cartridges seem to have more recoil when fired out of different brand guns then they do when fired from a Handi.
A factory 45-70 out of a Ruger #1 or #3 kicks a lot harder then from a Handi.
At least to me it feels that way.

LONGTOM

LedLobber · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2012, 12:13:04 PM »

Thanks for the comparison Longtom. I had a 10 GA Browning BPS very briefly. I only shot a box of steel loads out goose hunting. The BPS did not fit me in anyway, shape, or form. Hence, only having it briefly.

Gunther66, thanks for the background info. Just curious why people want to shoot guns that hurt on both ends. Especially since I seem to have a "The more it Hurts, the more I like it" mentality.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »

I tried to pull up AMMO GUIDE to do a comparison but the site now requires you to install ACTIVE X CONTROL which my PC won't let me do.
Anyway, the 450 with say a 350 gr bullet is only slightly more than the 450 Marlin with the same weight bullet.
In a Handi the 450 Marlin isn't that bad of a cartridge.
Much nicer to shoot in a Handi then in a Marlin Guide Gun.
The 450 #2 to me would be on par with a high end 45-70.
Others may feel differently about this compairsion.
A lot depends on how well you can handle recoil and again, the type of gun/stock configureation you are shooting it in.

LONGTOM

gunther66 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2012, 01:22:44 PM »

Tim,Thanks for your input on the rim thickness.My concern there is ,being so thin and not totally supported,that it could be driven forward by the firing pin.I guess the backthrust on firing would move it rearward again.

geezer56 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2012, 02:03:06 PM »

All this talk is making me reconsider my quest for an Encore barrel in 416 Rigby. Recoil junkies of the world, the next meeting is scheduled for gunther66's shooting range.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2012, 03:02:09 PM »

You guys are making me think my .727 Ol' Ugly OverKill (at under 6#) is just a sissygun..........
I ONCE fired a fellows 50-140 (3 1/2") Sharps; he said his load had something like a 625gr bullet, and it was enough for me! At the time I told the boys that I thought it slowed the rotation of the earth when I fired it (at least it ROCKED my world).
I suggest a group buy for chiropractic sessions.

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2012, 04:16:25 PM »

now I'm wondering if the .500's chamber would clean up if a 50-90 or 50-110 reamer were run into it? and if I can find brass... I feel a quest beginning

knight0334 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:23:00 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on February 13, 2012, 04:16:25 PM

now I'm wondering if the .500's chamber would clean up if a 50-90 or 50-110 reamer were run into it? and if I can find brass... I feel a quest beginning

I doubt the chamber will be an issue.

What might be a concern is that the 500s&w and 50/90 or any other 50cal rifle cartridge uses different diameter bullets because the bore and grooves are different diameters. You will also have to fiddle with the expander some so not to over expand the brass for the smaller diameter 50s&w bullets.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #26 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:30:19 PM »

The .500 is the wrong size for a 50 something.
I had already thought of that a long time ago.
Maybe a set of custom dies in 50 something with a .500 S&W bullet diamenter.
That is why I was looking at the .499 HE so I wouldn't have to re-bore but custom dies and custom brass stopped that.
Besides, I want a barrel longer that 22" anyway so a re-bore is about the only option.
I already have some 50-something brass and have some 50-140 brass coming.
Still like the idea of having a 50-something barrel made for my Winchester 1886 take down.

LONGTOM

knight0334 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:35:23 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on February 13, 2012, 10:54:10 AM

The difference in rim thickness is a moot point, the 450 #2 rim is huge, .650" vs .605" for the 45-70.

Tim

All 3 of my H&R/NEF .45-70/120 guns have rim recess depth ranging from .065" to as much as .080". If my three reflect what is typical for Handi's and BC's - a thick rim might be a blessing on a rechamber to another cartridge.

If I'm not careful with the way I load the cartridge and make sure it stays back against the breech face I have headspace issues ranging from stretched brass to misfires.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:43:58 PM »

The existing 45-70 rim cut depth is a non-issue because the new rim cut will be wider and slightly shallower for the 450 #2 rim, besides that, the bottlenecked case can headspace on the shoulder if necessary.

Tim

450 #2, 45-120, 45-70, 500SW

gunther66 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 15, 2012, 04:36:50 AM »

Any of you guys have any experience with Jamison brass? That and Bertram seems to be what is available in this caliber. G66