DAFFY-NITIONS? What scenario/s actually 'require' a survival or bear pistol?

[Couger]

Was re-reading the thread called "bear guns," that stemmed from 'discussions' and differing points-of-view expressed on that thread and others (that discuss "ultimate handguns" or other similar [so-called] survival tools).
 
I think a lot of the confusion comes from what various members and posters think constitute a "survival situation."
 
And outlining what scenarios can occur / might occur would give a better understanding on how to discuss certain subjects.
 
But a couple things I've noticed from several threads on the 'perfect bugout gun' (handgun or rifles), is that the vast majority of posters agree that two or more weapons are preferred to only one!!
 
Also, along with that I agree a .22 rimfire is the first-best-choice for most, to [mostly] procure food.  But a second (and larger) gun is ALWAYS preferred for whatever protection a [member] forsees he/she might need!
 
Trying to stmulate a new discussion ..... wwould anyone at GBO ever consider carrying a Hi-Point carbine as a bugout gun?  Myself, I'm seriously wanting (methinks) a Mech-Tech CCU carbine on a 10mm Glock frame.
 
Criticisms?
 
ADDED:  A couple .22 designs I wish were [more] available (esp for survivalists or minimalist hikers/campers/backpackers) might be eight or 10-inch .22 pistols, but made to be as light as possible even with those loooooong pistol barrels!
 
One note; Its been found that a 10inch .22LR still gives approx 93% of the performance found in full-length rifle, using whatever .22LR ammunition.  My 1st choice of .22 ammo would be a standard velocity .22LR with 40 grain bullet, if not the CCI SGB (small game bullet) rimfire loading!  2nd .22 rimfire ammo choice is the Remington CBee loading with a 33grn bullet at 740fps MV (incredibly quiet!!).

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on them. I had a guy who owed me money give me a 40sw high point carbine to pay some of it back. I shot may two or three hundred rounds out of it and it didnt miss a beat. I ended up giving it to my neighbor. He and his son shoot the snot out of it. Theyve probably put 5k through it so far. It has had problems. The bolt broke once and had to be replaced and the rails the bolt slide on ended up gauling and had to be replaced. Both times high point paid for even the shipping and fixed it. Thing is when its running its reliable and accurate but I dont think id want to rely on one for the long haul. Granted in a survival situation your not going to go out and shoot up 500 rounds in a day for fun but id still feel better about a gun i knew would hold up and if it did break i could find parts for it. But if its all your buget will allow its still much better then a stick!

[Couger]

..... But if its all your buget will allow its still much better then a stick.

Good post Lloyd!
 
My purpose in asking about the Hi-Points and Mech-Tech CCU's is to have an adequate and even dependable weapon (fairly compact and concealable, lightweight, but 'more' than a standard 4" handgun) that isn't terribly expensive and could even be considered 'semi-disposable' in some scenarios.
 
I prefer a Glock or Ruger revolver for a serious sidearm, and an AR or FAL in a real rifle, but confescation or having something stolen/lost seems more and more possible given the [dastardly and sometimes draconian] changes we wonder might be looming in our country and its roads.
 
For walk-me-home/truck guns I've considered the Mech-Tech and Kel-Tec SU-16, versus the more expensive choices.  And I know a couple fellows who have bought extra 9mm's they feel they could loose (and not be sick about it!) because their investment is around $300 (XD 9mm's!).
 
But besides this talk about less-than-full-price firearms, I would also hope to have a ltwt singleshot .22LR handgun or rifle.  but I'm not aware of any such singleshot .22's that are made!  Unless Thompson/Center offered their new HotShot .22 in handgun form.     (they don't    ).
 
Something I haven't tried yet (in leu of a rimfire .22 weapon for SG hunting), is developing some small game .38 or .357 loads that shoot a wadcutter or similar design fast enough to kill a bunny or squirrel or grouse at average ranges, but without blowing it up! I would try to develop something in the 800fps velocity-envelope for small game collecting with a .35 cal handgun. If I was trying to eleminate the need to carry a rimfire.
 
I wonder how well similar 9mm Luger loads might perform for collecting food?
 
If I had a Hi-Point carbine, I wouldn't shoot it for [excessive] fun and would expect to wear it out if shot too much.  My reason for having such a weapon would be to arm and defend myself if seperated from my vehicle, and had to 'walk home.'  In such a scenario I want more than a Glock or 6-shooter, that would offer more accuracy and more firepower!  Even though I would try to avoid gangs/mobs/road blocks, etc. even if I had to resort to 'walking home' nostly at night time, avoiding most prople (I didn't know) along the way.
 
I could see having the centerfire HG or carbine, along with an AR-7 or similar.  (if the CCU or Hi-Point was a failure, of course an M-4 or trapper-levergun might be choices.

[Empty Quiver]

Understanding where this comes from I'll ask you this.


 Would you choose the least expensive means to protect yourself if you knew absolutely for sure you would walk home through hostile territory this afternoon? I would look towards a high quality cosmetically abused weapon to stash away. I could never trust a weapon marketed so cheaply I would always wonder where the cost reduction came from. Just me. I know, most say they have been trouble free for them, and warrantee issues are handled quickly. I don't want to ever call the factory about a problem. Know what I mean?


Ruger revolver chambered for .327fed mag. Full power stuff is close to .38special and get you some .32 longs for rabbit hunts or whatever. If Marlin would put this round in an 1894 carbine, well that would be the end of the discussion for me.


Beretta Storm bullpup and a 92 f will use the same mags and can tolerate about any amount of abuse. I would lean this direction myself.

[Lloyd Smale]

buying a ruger sure doesnt guarantee you will have a trouble free gun forever. Ive probably had more problems with rugers and marlins then anything else. Granted ive owned more rugers then anything else but to think the more you spend the more reliability you get isnt right. For example ive owned 1911s that have cost anywhere from 500 bucks to 1800 bucks. the more expensive ones may have been fit up a bit better or shot a bit better but were surely no more reliable. In some cases less so. Same goes with ars. I see very little differnce in reliability between my 700 dollar ars and my 1400 dollar ars. If your a ruger fan ill give you this. I can buy a blackhawk for say 500 dollars and a smith and wesson 29 would set you back at least 300 more. Is the 29 a more reliable gun. Hardly so. Bottom line is im a gun nut. I live and breath guns. Would i want a highpoint if shtf. NOPE. Would i pick one up off the ground if it were all i had you bet! You have to keep in mind that everyone isnt a gun nut that feels he needs 8 ars and 12 1911s or guns that cost 2k. I might but someone else and by someone i mean most people would think im nuts. Some guys also just dont have money in this economy. For them an ar or a mini is out of the question. We can tell them that there family is worth it but bottom line is they first have to feed there family to keep them alive before theres even a need to protect them. To be hones if a guy has say 800 bucks to get something together to survive a shtf senerio hed be much better off buying a highpoint a couple boxes of ammo and some food and water then spending it all on a high dollar gun. chances are you wont even need a gun but i can about gurantee youll need the food and water.

[tacklebury]

Simply put in most ways revolvers are typically considered more reliable.  Not that they cannot have issues, but I think the Hi-Points make a great truck gun and they can take a lot of abuse.  My thoughts on a survival scenerio is that I'd want my blackhawk in .45 colt / .45 acp.  Ammo is plentiful in the acp and with reloads, my .45 Colts can drop any creature on the continent.  I had considered this some time back and I still think this little Rossi Single pistol with .22lr barrel and .45lc and .410 capability would be a great all in one survival weapon.  Only issue with it is that if you are using the .22 barrel to small game hunt and came on a bear, how fast could you switch back.  hehe
 
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=P4102211BS

[reliquary]

I agree with most of what Lloyd said.  Please, guys, don't hold that against me?
 
If you have only a limited budget, get the best gun you can afford and still have some money left over for beans, bullets, and other supplies.  Ruger makes a companion piece to its 10-22 which looks like it's on the same action and is effectively a long-barreled pistol, if you lean to that was of thinking.  For that matter, get a light rifle like the Mossberg Plinkster for about $110 and leave it in the trunk.
 
I have a HiPoint .45 carbine and am well satisfied with its quality and reliability, but I probably will never put over a thousand rounds through it in my lifetime.  I have other things that are better quality and of proven reliability, with repair parts on hand just in case.  If someone offered me a used Hi-Point pistol for a hundred or so, I'd take it just to tinker with it and store it, but I wouldn't make it my central piece unless it was all I had.. 
 
Never had a problem with Rugers; have only owned BHs and they've done well for me.  The .45 LC/ACP combo would be a good one to have.
 
There are endless scenarios and combinations of hardware to fit.  Keep it simple to start with, then add to it as you can afford to?

[Pat/Rick]

I agree that the market is devoid of long barrelled .22 handguns.For foraging I really like my M-6 Scout (sadly no new production). Also I use a Savage Stevens Crackshot .22, just like the older favorites, and I am going to buy a .22 Cricket soon. These are very light and scaled for young children. For an adult to shoot, ya have to crawl the stock a bit, but a very light small package none the less. Henry also makes good products/designs from what I have seen, but have no experience with those.
 
For stealthy applications the quiet Colibri brands of RF ammo is nice, and I use that from time to time.
 
Hi point? I have zero experience there, but with a .22 rifle, and a good handgun .4++ or magnum revolver I believe I'd be good to go.  Avoiding contact could mean alot in some scenarios. Before I got a hi point, I think I'd look for a .30-30 or common caliber mil-surp. But hey, ya do what ya can do within your limits.

[bilmac]

The original post mentioned bear guns. I really can't see very many folks in the lower 48 needing the real big bore bear guns. A 357 with heavy bullets or a 45 Colts should be enough for blacks.

That said, Griz have been seen within 15 miles of my place in west central Wyo. A guy had to defend himself from a griz while he was out walking in SAGEBRUSH. [Had a 41 mag and the griz lost]. So am I gonna start carrying a 500 S&W all the time I am out there. Nope. I worry a lot more about 2 legged varmints if they should ever get hungry in town and start roaming the countryside.

[tacklebury]

I haven't done it personally, but know some who have, and there isn't a grizzly in NA that a 300 gr. bullet doing 1200FPS won't tyically shoot completely through.  I know their skull plate and all, but they aren't invincible.  One guy I know shot one with a 30-30.  Not where I'd like to be, but he was up a tree too.  I'm just amazed at the speed those things have for their size and certainly respect their formidable weapons too.   

[Pat/Rick]

The grizzly's range is expanding. They have been photographed on the east side of the Cascade mtn. range in WA near I-90. I have heard reports of a sighting near Mt Adams in So. WA state. Stay aware.

[bilmac]

I carried a Ruger 45 colt loaded up heavy when I was in Alaska if I felt the chance of running into one was slight like when they should be hibernating. The rest of the year a Marlin 45-70 went along. The 45 colt Ruger is a lot more portable than a 44 Mag

[keith44]

Ok this is headed in the same direction.  What makes you think a semi auto anything is the top choice?? Pistol, Rifle or Shotgun the semi-auto is the most complex and break down prone design.  The exceptions being straight blow back guns (not locked breech weapons)  but even those are alot more complex than you would want in a SHTF situation that you actually had to rely on the weapon in your inventory.  Some of us live in fairly remote areas, and a bug out is not likely.  Too many areas to hide in and never leave your own property.  So getting home and the truck gun idea.  This thing is gonna ride around and bounce around for perhaps years, and it just sits there gathering rust, dust, grit, dirt, etc.  These things kill semi and full autos quicker than anything else.  Semi autos are high maintenance, period.  Manually cycled repeaters are significantly more reliable, and more forgiving to being abused and neglected.  The utmost dependable types are singleshots.  So SHTF truck gun?  I choose a pump 12 ga (Rem 870) with barely legal short barrel, backed by (yes there is always a back up in my kit) a revolver (.38 or .44 spcl depending on which one is ready to rock, and which is down for maintenance) these are backed by one of two each .38 or .22 derringers.  These are the get me home guns, once there the inventory is much greater.


Now lets look at the bug out situation.  This should be the absolute last resort for survival if you have food and water stores.  You simply cannot carry 3 months or more food and water supplies and still hunt and gather enough food to survive.  So if you live in a highly populated high probability target area, save your money and efforts on food stores (you'll only be feeding someone else) and store up ammo, and about three days worth of water.  Now you are prepared to bug out.  Otherwise, if you own as much as 1/2 acre, store seeds, ammo, water, and dehydrated or freeze dried foods.  These seeds are for long term use only and should be replaced every three years.  Survival in the long term depends on re-growing the food supply, short term the wild game will leave long before man can get to where they were.

[reliquary]

Couger:  Keith44 is making a lot of sense.  Good post, bro.
 
I prefer a scoped semiauto .22, though, keep it in a cheapo case in the truck under the seat, and don't have as many handguns in the vehicle.  Clean the rifle occasionally; no problems so far.  Light "day pack", NcStar shoulder bag with goodies in it.  Most of my trips are "to town", 20 miles or so; town is ~6k population. 
 
If I go on longer trips or to larger, urban areas, or overnight, that calls for another travel package.  My bugout location is my permanent residence and I HAVE to get home.

[keith44]

Thanks reliquary, just callin' it like I see it.


Semi-auto .22 (take down, or standard configuration, or folding stock type) kept in a case is a good idea.  At least according to my little thinker.  The case would help keep dust and grit out of the action, and not harm reliability.  The straight blow back of a .22 semi auto is pretty simple in design, and properly lubed and cleaned should give many years of reliable service.  The clips, or magazines need some special attention.  Magazines (non-removable tube types are most common) should be loaded with 2 less than the full capacity if they are kept loaded for long periods.  Also keep the action closed and the chamber empty, and the gun uncocked.  When checking to see if the chamber is loaded move the bolt about 1/4 to 1/3 of its travel distance.  This way the bolt does not come back far enough to load the first round from the chamber.


For the removable clips have four, two fully loaded, and two empty.  About every two weeks unload the loaded ones, and load the empty ones.  This will keep from weakening the springs and causing feeding problems.




Hmm, I guess I should make it clear that this is my opinion (as a hobby level gunsmith) offered to the group for their evaluation, I am not trying to tell anyone anything!!  Just hoping my last post did not kill discussion.

[tacklebury]

One reason I like my model 60 tube feed.  Yes they can be cranky if you don't clean it up once a year, but heck, mine's had about 10k rounds put through it since I bought it USED in 1986.  It still shoots 1/2" at 50 and gets cleaned once a year after squirrel season.    Clips are tooooo easy to drop, break, or just plain wear out.  I do have a clip on my Papoose, but that's because it's a breakdown and tubes don't work.  I figure if things get bad and the clip dumps, it'll be a single shot.  hehe

[Couger]

Couger:  Keith44 is making a lot of sense.  Good post, bro.
 
I prefer a scoped semiauto .22, though .....

Same with me.  And YES there are many good pood posts and 'posters' on this thread and board!
 
I used to think I'd accomplish everything I wanted to (in an SA rimfire) with a M10/22 until I picked up my Papoose.  Whats so appealing is how both models can be serviced if one is trained and knowledgable, with an ample but minimum amount of required parts and tools!  Plus I always build other redundant measures into my choices as well!
 
Also every SHTF firearm/model I've chosen is based on a very popular cartridge as well as the number of folks who also like that 'choice,' to be help facilitate finding even more 'spare parts.      (the M10/22 is a great example for this point, is probably the single most popular .22rifle owned by people even I know.  so through barter and horse trading who knows what could be "found?"     Include with that the Ruger Charger)
 
I haven't given up finding a long-barreled .22LR singleshot,
that likely will look like a T/C Contender sounds like the best option.
 
And I know a fellow who carries a North American Mini-Master when fishing. (for dispatching dogfish that wreck his nets)  A very handy 'stick' in a very small package!!  Besides also handling WMR fodder!  
 

[Couger]

Ok this is headed in the same direction .....
 
Now lets look at the bug out situation.  This should be the absolute last resort for survival if you have food and water stores.  You simply cannot carry 3 months or more food and water supplies and still hunt and gather enough food to survive.  So if you live in a highly populated high probability target area, save your money and efforts on food stores (you'll only be feeding someone else) and store up ammo, and about three days worth of water.  Now you are prepared to bug out.  Otherwise, if you own as much as 1/2 acre, store seeds, ammo, water, and dehydrated or freeze dried foods.  These seeds are for long term use only and should be replaced every three years.  Survival in the long term depends on re-growing the food supply, short term the wild game will leave long before man can get to where they were. (this is all very well thought out, AND something I'm quite familiar with since my parents and I are all from Rocky Mtn states, as well as a certain religion HQ'd in Salt Lake City    )
 
I'm amazed when it comes up how ignorant and helpless 'ctitfolk' are when they leave the city limits!
 
What makes you think a semi auto anything is the top choice??  What makes you think it isn't?  Your question could p-off countless M1911 enthsiasts, one example!  Pistol, Rifle or Shotgun the semi-auto is the most complex and break down prone design.  The exceptions being straight blow back guns (not locked breech weapons)  but even those are alot more complex than you would want in a SHTF situation that you actually had to rely on the weapon in your inventory.  Some of us live in fairly remote areas, and a bug out is not likely.  Too many areas to hide in and never leave your own property.  So getting home and the truck gun idea.  This thing is gonna ride around and bounce around for perhaps years, and it just sits there gathering rust, dust, grit, dirt, etc.  These things kill semi and full autos quicker than anything else.  Semi autos are high maintenance, period.  Manually cycled repeaters are significantly more reliable, and more forgiving to being abused and neglected!!??  That's asking for [guarenteed] trouble!  The utmost dependable types are singleshots.  So SHTF truck gun?  I choose a pump 12 ga (Rem 870) with barely legal short barrel, backed by (yes there is always a back up in my kit) a revolver (.38 or .44 spcl depending on which one is ready to rock, and which is down for maintenance) these are backed by one of two each .38 or .22 derringers.  These are the get me home guns, once there the inventory is much greater.  (of course the best stuff is at home!    I realize some folks are married to their choices and preparations they've made.  and if those preparations multiply their efforts and strengths, those folks are much more likely to be successful getting through whatever apocolipse or life changing event!!).

But regarding the foolishness of just throwing a gun under a truck seat and the nimrod who's sure it will still be there when needed?  Glad my family isn't like that!
 
Uncared for a manually-operated HG, rifle, shotgun is going to be more dependable in a revolver, pumpgun, boltgun or levergun than a self-loading semi-auto.  but if the 'survivalist'/patriot/citizen shoots such weapons at least one or twice every month (or at least check them as in "inspect" them), I would think most "neglect" will vanish.  And there's also what precautions are taken to prevent theft (even from a break-in), or confescation even at a road block?        And why wouldn't a competent gunowner keep such items in a moisture-proof/dirt-proof soft bag or hard case?
 
If a fellow has done his homework and strives to be in condition yellow (at least), he's gonna be better off than 95+ percent of the other 'souls' around him!
 
Besides SA designs, revolvers are indeed almost flawless if given even minimal care and respect.  Hard to go totally without those.  Plus a Handi-Rifle with a couple well-fitted barrel choices might even be more dependable many manual guns i've seen.
 
I'll leave by saying  if a fellow is well armed and skilled with a piece that serves him well, his talents and confidence might then allow him to 'move mountatins.'

[keith44]

Hey Cougar    let em be PO'd, that'll make em try to improve the dependability.


I have semi-auto's, but they all have proven to be tempermental at one time or another, so I always recommend the manually cycled arms for those who are only going to have one for use in a survival situation, and never use it otherwise.

[teamnelson]

What scenario/s actually 'require' a survival or bear pistol?

Bear pistol: Inside 100 yds, on foot, alone, without a means to escape, and without any other weapon, taken by suprise. This sounds like brush or forest where I cannot see for great distance. This sounds like I am not on a hunting expedition, as I would have a long gun in addition to my short gun. This sounds rural ... bears don't wander the street in the lower 48 or Hawaii. This sounds relatively rare ... so rare in fact that mitigation is possible. Always have a partner, know your terrain, pack binos so you can scan further, and pack something that won't jam when you need it to work, with enough energy and mass to penetrate bear hide. And make sure your partner has one too.
 
Survival pistol: anywhere I'm just trying to live. doesn't have to be the same as a bear pistol. Its why I advocate 2 pistols before adding a long gun: A centerfire revolver, and a rimfire revolver. The rimfire is for survival ... small to medium edible game, signalling, and defense against predators, even 2 legged if you must shoot your way to your centerfire revolver.
 
Now I factor casting and reloading into my preps, however I've given a lot of thought to a scenario in which that would be impractical. In which case I'd most likely stick to a 357 revolver as my only handgun, and use other means to harvest small game, like a bow, sling, snares, bunny stick ...
 
I don't get the high capacity requirement on a .22 other than it makes it easier than carrying ammo in your pocket. There's nothing in the world I'd shoot with a .22 that I'd need a quick follow up shot on, and I sure as heck would not attack anyone with a .22, defense if I had to. So without a high capacity requirement, I don't need semi-auto either for a .22. Which works out nicely as that reduces the number of points of failure greatly, increasing the likelihood that it will work as needed when needed.
 
I'd also never pick a centerfire semi-auto as my survival handgun, never mind Bear. But I've shot long range handgun quite a bit, and I know how to get 200 yds out of a 44, or 100 yds out of a 5" barreled 357. If anyone hit anything past 50 yds with a 380, 9mm, 357 sig, 40, 45ACP, 45GAP it's a matter of happenstance, and not well aimed precision fire. The 10mm might do it, but that's a beast I'd only want to use on bear, and not much else.
 
I have a 10" barreled .22 TC and its a laser beam, but even with rynite grips, its heavy. I've fired the 9.5" barreled Ruger Single Six .22 in competition before, and its very accurate, but awkward in the hands for me. I think a 7.5" barreled single six Bisley convertible might be a good alternative to carrying a .22 rifle, the .22 mag making the 100yd shots more consistent, and the barrel length making the .22 lr more accurate at the shorter ranges.

[Couger]

You always post interesting thoughts TN!  With lots to ponder.
 
I haven't stated this before anywhere, but the interest I've had in 'bear guns' stems from a couple of very simple facts I thought many on the board would pick up on.
 
Most shooters/ would-be-survivalists have limted budgets and I think try to buy firearms that will serve several purposes and give the most-use and application for the buck$$!  Sort of intuitive.
 
But also the adage a "shooter when protecting his- or herself should choose a firearm (and cartridge) that is the biggest they can handle (esp for women) when trying to accomplish a "job" (of defense).  this normally applies to dealing with THUGS, but not always just-THUGS!
 
In the remote western U.S. states that are still very wild a lot of the time, the biggest "threat" is often a moose or bear (each weighs considerably more than any THUG), if one spends considerable time in the remote lonesome areas of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, etc.  A .357 isn't very big!  And certainly not a round like a 9mm, .45ACP, etc.
 
I thought most viewers to GBO already knew these things!!  And folks who live in even more remote areas in Alaska and Canada know these things even better than I think I do! 
 
"Preditors" (bears, wuff, cougars, feral stuff) are increasing in many areas, and man-wildlife confrontations seem to be increasing as well.
 
So what's the likelihood of encountering weird stuff or having a confrontation? 
 
Approx 30 years ago my family was nearly attacked by a black bear when camping once, as we put groceries away in the car one night before sleeping!  Bear climbed into the car and nearly knocked my mum down when it fled. 
 
And the last time I trout fished in Wyoming, it was 1pm on a sunny/cloudy day when I walked face-to-face into a cow Shiras moose with twin calves.  Why weren't they bedded down [hiding] like normal critters are supposed to do!?  I made all kinds of noise approaching them.  I've always been extremely grateful that momma-moose was on the heels of her young as they fled, instead of stomping on muah!  There was not time for me to do anything but stare, it happened that FAST!  Was I lucky?  Oh yeah!
 
And then there was the times I encountered my first copperhead in NW Florida (where the species isn't supposed to exist!)  And while I never encountered a rattler in FL, I did confront several coral snakes, and even the false-coral (red scarlet king snake).  I next encountered a copperhead in a downtown Atlanta suburb under a can of charcoal lighter fuel! 
 
And first time I saw an alligator in the wild was when a family friend's boy and I were smimming in our backyard in a bayou about 3pm one summer day.  A piece of driftwood not too far away seemed to move against the breeze, and then it disappeared!  We vamoosed quickly out of the water.     
 
And my bro-in-law who grew up in southern FL all his life near the 'glades.  He was 10yo one day when he and a buddy were fixing a bike flat.  Imagine his shock the next morning when a cottonmouth bit him on the wrist as he picked up the new tire!  He was in the ICU for several days.
 
And then there was my 96yo aunt who passed away last summer.  She was my dad's oldest sister, and oldest of the five my grandparents had, and last to die. 
 
Seven or 8 years ago she came home to her Cody, Wyoming home (west of town).  She had been a widow 14-16 years, lived alone.  Imagine her shock when she found a 6 1/2'plus western diamondback on her elevated front porch blocking entrance into her home!
 
She found a shovel to kill it with, only after she had to climb into a window above the snake to first get the shovel.  Her photo and story were in the Cody paper!
 
All these incidents tell me it pays to consider "contingencies," and that extinuating things happen! (glad these "odds" were not with lightening strikes or tornados!).
 
Plus the incident that WyoCowboy told about spring trout fishing, and the elk carcass he came upon with fresh grizzly tracks beside it ..... I would wager that such incidents happen DOZENS of times EVERY YEAR in the remotest areas of our country!
 
I know many GBO members like yourself TeamNelson, live back east or always in more-civilized locales, but one can never predict when the extempotaneous things might happen!
 
P.S. - To clarify, I don't think "dozens" of grizzly bear encounters (or all bear encounters in the WEST  number in the dozens and dozens, but when considering "generic encounters of all kinds" in the remote areas of the USA (all areas in the 48 contiguous states!), I do bet the need for a gun might number in the "dozens and dozens!"  And where I live and spend my time, sometimes a "danger might be as small as a snake or badger or feral dog, or bigger on occasion. 
 
Even my buddy who took me horse-riding when we'd scout for mule deer, packed a Contender pistol ALWAYS, for if his horse ever broke its leg!  Never expected to need it, but like American Express, never left home without it!

[Couger]

..... Survival pistol: anywhere I'm just trying to live. doesn't have to be the same as a bear pistol. Its why I advocate 2 pistols before adding a long gun: A centerfire revolver, and a rimfire revolver. The rimfire is for survival ... small to medium edible game, signalling, and defense against predators, even 2 legged if you must shoot your way to your centerfire revolver.  Signaling with a .22?  Maybe I don't understand this!  But i carry flares sometimes I can shoot from a revolver.

Now I factor casting and reloading into my preps, however I've given a lot of thought to a scenario in which that would be impractical. In which case I'd most likely stick to a 357 revolver as my only handgun, and use other means to harvest small game, like a bow, sling, snares, bunny stick ...  Good ideas certainly, but what about developing 'squib' loads with a low-vel wadcutter for thumping bunnies?  Or knocking the head off a grouse?

I don't get the high capacity requirement on a .22 other than it makes it easier than carrying ammo in your pocket. There's nothing in the world I'd shoot with a .22 that I'd need a quick follow up shot on, and I sure as heck would not attack anyone with a .22, defense if I had to. So without a high capacity requirement, I don't need semi-auto either for a .22. Which works out nicely as that reduces the number of points of failure greatly, increasing the likelihood that it will work as needed when needed.  What you're describing "works" for you!  WHICH IS KOOL!!  But when choosing one .22 HG for ALL scenarios, why wouldn't a 8 to 10 shot .22 be most common?  I've never had the opportunity to own a ruger Bearcat or SingleSix, but those are SOLID SA sixguns!  FOR ME,  I've always had Ruger Mk one or Mk two semiauto HG's - synonymous with 10shots!  And mags to reload with.  Now Ruger is supposed to be making a new-design 9 or 10shot SingleSix and a new 8-shot SP101 revolver.  Both sound like great wheelguns and the SP101 would reload much faster, but I certainly understand why its easy to keep the semiauto's, and even just "jump" to those designs if picking "one" .22 HG.  This is also a reason I think the Browning Buckmark is one of the closest rivals/competitors to the Ruger SA .22LR pistols. 
 
In addition, when equipped with a 10inch barrel, even such a 'pistol' will give 92-95% of the .22LR performance found in a .22LR rifle! 
 
Not many folks are aware of this!
 
But not many folks want that long of a pistol or that much weight.
 
However,  Ruger made a silhouette version of their RST pistols, I first learned to appreciate after reading a couple articles writtien by survivalists! 
 
And I haven't even hit on the different rimfire loads available for specialty applications!

I'd also never pick a centerfire semi-auto as my survival handgun, never mind Bear. But I've shot long range handgun quite a bit, and I know how to get 200 yds out of a 44, or 100 yds out of a 5" barreled 357. If anyone hit anything past 50 yds with a 380, 9mm, 357 sig, 40, 45ACP, 45GAP it's a matter of happenstance, and not well aimed precision fire. The 10mm might do it, but that's a beast I'd only want to use on bear, and not much else.  I agree with that!

I have a 10" barreled .22 TC and its a laser beam, but even with rynite grips, its heavy. I've fired the 9.5" barreled Ruger Single Six .22 in competition before, and its very accurate, but awkward in the hands for me. I think a 7.5" barreled single six Bisley convertible might be a good alternative to carrying a .22 rifle, the .22 mag making the 100yd shots more consistent, and the barrel length making the .22 lr more accurate at the shorter ranges.  Interesting paragraph!  I would like a singleshot .22LR pistol, if I could make it extremely slim and lightweight, to fit in a backpack pocket, for quick extraction and use when a grouse or bunny suddenly appeared.  A Contender is the best legal option I'm aware of presently.  although if the new T/C HotShot was offered in a handgun (for HG hunters and .22 silhouette shooters!), I'd be all over one!!  I invision such a specialized piece with an 8" or 10" barrel, and custom (not patridge) sights.  Plus wouldn't a similar piece in .22WMR also be interesting!!?? 

TeamNelson, there's a fellow named Mark White, who started "Sound Technologies" out of Pelham, Alabama who's written extensively on some silencers his company built for .22's.  He's studied the .22 rimfire cartridges A LOT, and has published much data on what the iundustry offers in a rimfire.
 
Whether you ever deviate or modify your selection for a small game collector, I'd highly recommend looking at some of Dr. White's articles, and selecting a wide range of .22LR loads.  I've put together a case of .22's with CCI Velocitors, CCI SGB's some Remington CBee's in it, and a brick of [expensive] SR Match .22's for special applications.  This case of special rimfire ammo is for emergencies, not barter and certainly not day-to-day.   
 
Cheers!

[teamnelson]

The consistency in your examples of bear presence appear to be geographic. I've spent most of my time in the US in the west, black bears weren't uncommon, but they did not wander into town. The only time you'd see them is ... on foot/horseback in the woods. Spent a lot of time on the southern portion of the AT, bears weren't uncommon but they did not wander into town. The only time we saw them was ... on foot in the woods. Went on an Alaskan Cruise, the southern route, and a brown bear cub got caught in the fence of a used car lot across from us as we were walking to a grocery store to get a candy bar. I hope to retire in MT where bears will be more common than they are on my ship, admittedly.


I in no way shape or form would ever imply that bears never appear where you don't want them. In fact, if you're a sloppy camper, they will most certainly show up where you don't want them. My point is, in an entire life, how many bear encounters will someone logically have? I always seem to find them exactly where I expect to find them ... in their own habitat. And even then they tend not to run up and say hi.


But snakes, wow, hundreds of them in my lifetime; coyotes, cougars, mountain lion, feral pig, javelina. Lived in Africa for a while, cervil cats are smallish by comparison but they'd try to eat me all the same. All of those can and have been taken by 357. And after that are the 2 legged predators which are also allergic to 158gr of wheelweights.


So let me turn this around, what's the largest caliber handgun that you'd feel adequate for bears? And now how would you in turn use that for bunny rabbits, snake, etc. How comfortable is it to carry? How much ammo do you think you could reasonably pack on you for it? Could anyone in your party use it effectively if you were sprawled at the bottom of a ravine and they divvied up your pack?


Survival splits into 2 camps: 1) buy the best tool for each and every specific job you can imagine ... and a trailer to haul it in. 2) buty adequate multi purpose tools to complement your knowledge, skills and innovation. I'm in the latter camp. I'll do all the things I can imagine to reduce the likelihood of my exposure to Mr. Bear, and if I win the lottery and i meet up with him anyway, I'll fight with whatever I have. But I honestly do not see myself toting a 500 S&W around all day for the 1 in a million opportunity, when I'll see 3 snakes, and a rabbit every day.

[keith44]

I gotta agree with TeamN on this one, for the most part out thinking is right together.

But there is one point where we disagree, that is the ranged accuracy of a 9mm handgun.  I have a single action locked breech delayed blow back single stack mag fed Norinco, that I've had since two years before they were banned from import.  I have extensively re-worked and polished it, and made it as accurate as my revolvers.  Rabbits at 75 yards are not that hard to dispatch.  Like all machines though, it is tempermental.  The mag springs are fatigued now, and the feed lips are worn so dependability have it into semi retirement until I can make new springs and rebuild the mags with new feed lips.

Even this gun never achieved the magic 100% reliability needed for survival / defense.  So if you are comfortable with 90% dependability go for it.  Many others like myself have looked at the "militia" side of survival, and even geared up once or twice, only to discover that dependable service guns need to be simple mechanisms for long term severe duty use or dis-use.  As citizens we are not gearing up for war, rather an extended extreme hunting trip at worst.  Water shelter and food should be what you train yourself for, not a my idea is best or if the military uses it...

Not all situations are the same

[reliquary]

This is headed in the same direction as the thread started a while back by flmason on the other forum, when he asked for input on a survival rifle.  There just isn't "one best thing" that will satisfy every person and every situation/scenario.
That's why I have several different things put aside at home and multiple travel packages.. 
 
The best gun to have in a SHTF situation is the one you have handy at the time.  Make that one as "multi-purpose" as you can, until you get something better. Keep that "something better" where it can be gotten to.  Have an option to get to it.
 
 As they said many times while I was in "Plans and Ops":  "No plan survives contact with the enemy."   I was good at planning, but I was REALLY good at operating when the plans went to ****.
 
 

[teamnelson]

What scenario/s actually 'require' a survival or bear pistol?

I keyed in on the word "actually" in this question, and then put it next to the word 'require' in quotes, drawing meaning from the fact that it was put in quotes. I took that to mean that the OP wonders if a survival or bear pistol is actually required as often as its suggested. To hear it told on many threads, unless it can stop a charging grizzly, no point having it with you when you take the trash can to the curb. I chose to answer the question by describing scenarios in which I believed I might actually require a survival or bear pistol, admittedly splitting survival from bear as two types of pistols, since I don't think most of survival actually requires a bear pistol.
 
I (only half-jokingly) sometimes suggest that to really know what a good survival weapon is, you should get pass out drunk the night before, then stand up and hike cross country 25 miles early the next morning with full pack eating breakfast on the way, and then have to shoot a mountainman biathalon at the end: running or swimming from stage to stage. You'll learn alot about yourself and your firearm selection that day.
 
*BTW the passed out drunk is to simulate illness and injury, not implying that you'll be boozing while surviving. If you could manage to dislocate your strong side shoulder, and catch a norovirus at the same time, you can pass on the drinking part.

[reliquary]

 
To complement (and compliment, as well) TN's post: 
 
If we separate "survival" and "bear gun"...I see absolutely no scenario that would require me to have a bear gun.  My heaviest handgun is a BH .45LC.  It does well on feral hogs and could probably do well on any small black bears that might accidentally wander through the area.  But there aren't any bears around here.
 
For survival, though...my leaving the immediate vicinity of my house qualifies as a survival-situation-in-the-making.  That requires preparation.
 
My brother and I occasionally "forage" for a meal while we're out artifact-hunting, especially when we combine it with "sleeping outdoors".  That's an eye-opener sometimes.  In a pinch, many things are edible that aren't especially palatible. 
 
But in lieu of hiking 25 miles, or whatever distance, there are too many unattended tractors and ATVs out in the "great outdoors" for me to have to walk home.  I could walk it if I had to, but don't plan to.  Those things are too easy to hotwire. 
 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

A long walk , ok light weight is a plus. Two guns are heavy . Two loads of ammo is extra weight. The scout gun concept addresses what a survival gun should be . Its a bolt gun in most cases for a reason. With the scout concept in mind there are guns that are not quite scout guns but would work maybe better. The Ruger int in 308 would be a good choice. A Rem mod 7 with iron sights added wouls also . Some things I consider important , no magazine to lose. Iron sights as backup or primary . Shoots a popular cal. 308 or 223.
Handgun , 340PD , no mag to lose , easy to hide , 12 ozs + ammo ( limit to 20 rounds for handgun. Its a 357 mag so get some heavy loads for bear if you insist on not using your rifle .

[teamnelson]

In a PM, Couger indicated that he felt my tone was disrespectful and demeaning. I apologize to him publicly, that was never my intent. I have since tried to reply to his PM, but he has blocked my messages ... I assume them that I am on his ignore list. If someone else could relay to him my apologies, I would appreciate it. I would like the opportunity to make it right with him and restore a relationship that I have always considered valuable. I learn much from him, and would hate to lose that opportunity.
 
To everyone else, if I have offended you with my tone or postings, it was my not my intent. I can see that my sense of humor may not have been received as such. Again, my apologies to all.
 
S/F, Rob

[keith44]

In a PM, Couger indicated that he felt my tone was disrespectful and demeaning. I apologize to him publicly, that was never my intent. I have since tried to reply to his PM, but he has blocked my messages ... I assume them that I am on his ignore list. If someone else could relay to him my apologies, I would appreciate it. I would like the opportunity to make it right with him and restore a relationship that I have always considered valuable. I learn much from him, and would hate to lose that opportunity.
 
To everyone else, if I have offended you with my tone or postings, it was my not my intent. I can see that my sense of humor may not have been received as such. Again, my apologies to all.
 
S/F, Rob

Sometimes when in the heat of a debate things can be mis-interpreted. 


I am not taking sides here, but you both seem to like finding fault with the other.