Author Topic: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy  (Read 1346 times)

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Offline Lee Robinson

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Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« on: February 12, 2012, 10:20:08 AM »
What level of accuracy do you think is very good, but realistic out of this rifle? Can a lever action compete with a single shot "handi" rifle?
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Offline Nobade

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 03:22:02 AM »
My wife shoots one of those in cowboy centerfire silhouette and also pistol caliber levergun silhouette. It does quite well for both, pretty loopy trajectory at 200M but plenty of oomph to take the rams.

It does have some issues though. Mainly the chamber is so big that a fired case is about the same diameter as the rim. Therefore it doesn't work all that great with factory ammo, too much blowby and crud in the action. To make ammo for it I anneal the cases first to get them to seal, then only neck size from then on. I set the size die so it only sizes the part of the case that holds the bullet. Cases look like 44-40s after this. Next is the neck expander is made to the size of the bullets, in this case .455" so the case is big enough to not tear up the bullets. I shoot it with Ranch Dog 290gr. tumble lube bullets cast from air cooled wheelweights. Powder so far is Trailboss.

Accuracy with this rifle loaded like this  is outstanding. It shoots better than it has any right to, during load workup I put a scope on it and it normally would keep all shots touching on paper at 100 yards. I was amazed at the accuracy of it, since I had never seen a pistol caliber rifle ever shoot that good. Now keep in mind this is only with .455" or bigger bullets. (It shoots .458 ones just as well) With .452" pistol bullets it is pretty miserable unless they are loaded with black powder.

The point is, yes they can be accurate if fed properly. Factory ammo and jacketed bullets is not properly and likely you won't be happy.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline BigMuddy

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 07:22:34 AM »
My experience has been different. I have had mine a while though. I got one of the "Cowboys" as soon as they became available. I have never used anything sized over .452 in mine, and it will shoot really anything I have fed it and shoots it with amazing accuracy. I do think it may be the least finicky lever gun I have. When the guns first became available, the common comments I heard among the CAS crowd all pertained to accuracy with no complaints.

I have used it sparingly in CAS, have killed deer with it, and just general shooting. I have fired bullets from 200 grains to 335 grains. Every time my Son comes to visit I have to make sure that rifle is still in the safe before he leaves....he has promised to steal it from me someday. :D

Dan
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Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 03:23:59 PM »
NoBlade...do you think it is possible that not just the chamber, but your barrel may be oversized as well?
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Offline Nobade

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 02:23:19 AM »
NoBlade...do you think it is possible that not just the chamber, but your barrel may be oversized as well?

No, barrel is spot on. The reason I use big bullets in it is the large chamber. Smaller bullets allow gas to blow by and tear up the bullet in the instant it starts moving before it gets into the throat and seals. The cartridge just lays in the bottom of the chamber instead of being centered, and is not as accurate. Factory ammo is way worse for this, since it is so much smaller than the chamber. Once the case is fireformed and only neck sized the smaller bullets do shoot better, but not as good as larger ones.

And I also mentioned black powder. That works fine with bullets of any reasonable size, and I suspect it is because they instantly slug up to fill the chamber and throat, even before they leave the case. My 357 Browning is the same way - never could get it to shoot pistol bullets and smokeless but it is a tack driver with black powder. It's all about filling that throat.
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Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 03:34:08 PM »
Why would black powder cause the case to fit the camber any differently than smokeless? Are you using a softer lead? I am not familiar with black powder myself other than with my muzzle loader (which doesn't use a case).
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Offline Nobade

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 02:03:45 AM »
Because the smokeless pushes the bullet from the case into the throat and then starts to build its real pressure. From the point of ignition until the bullet plugs up the hole there is a gas leak, which tears up the bullet. Black powder is like a big hammer blow to the bullet, and it is so fast the bullet (and case) swells up and seal the chamber before the bullet moves much at all. The bullet is already filling the chamber and throat by the time it gets there.

Of course I can't actually see this happening but based on results and lots of experimenting this seems to be the case. I routinely demonstrate this effect by shooting bore diameter paper patch bullets in my 45-70. The wrapped bullet is smaller than the BORE - it just sits in there and will slide down the whole barrel if you want. Fired with black powder, that bullet instantly seals and shoots very well. Now we all know what happens if a smokeless load has a bullet even .001" smaller than the GROOVE size. It leads the bore and doesn't shoot accurately.

Pistol caliber lever guns are a special case when it comes to making good accurate ammo for them. We are limited by the action to how long a round can be, and what shape the bullet can be. But they are chambered typically with no real throat, just a taper from the mouth of the case into the bore. A funnel. If we load ammo with the bullet sticking out enough to engage the rifling, we will usually end up with ammo too long to feed through the action. So we must contend with the jump. In some rifles this is a real problem, in others it's no big deal. But the more we do to stop gas leaking during that jump the better our ammo will perform. If this involves granular filler, slower progressive burning powder, paper patching, black powder, or whatever else that is fine. The goal is the same. Get that bullet into the barrel pointed in the right direction with a minimum of damage. Once that has been achieved it will fly well.

I'll refer to my B92 again, since it has the opposite issue from the Marlin 45 Colt. The chamber on that rifle is exceptionally tight. A sizing die just barely changes a fired case, and a .359" bullet is tight in a fired case. But the throat is really long. (a cone 5 deg/side from .380" down to bore size) so any normal pistol type bullet has a long way to go to hit rifling. That rifle absolutely refuses to shoot with smokeless powder with any ammo loaded short enough to cycle through the action. But load it with rifle bullets, like the RCBS 35-200-FN seated to touch the rifling and it is a laser beam. Loaded with paper patched bullets to engrave the rifling and it's the same way. So I have a choice - if I want to use the magazine I load it with black powder and 158gr. pistol bullets (#358250 works wonderfully) and shoot accurately. Or I load it with rifle type bullets and smokeless and single load it. Thankfully on a '92 that is easy. Now with the Marlin and its big chamber, things are a lot easier. It will shoot exceptionally well with ammo loaded to function through the magazine, as long as the bullets are big enough. Those bottleneck 45 Colt cartridges might look odd, but they shoot wonderfully and feed slick. That 290gr. Ranch Dog bullet (.455") is designed just for this application, and the nose fills the throat when seated to the right length. All is good and the rifle is problem free.

This is getting long, but I hope it helps to clarify my thinking and helps to get these rifles shooting well. I know many people have trouble getting their pistol caliber rifle to shoot very well, or just accept that 4 MOA is all it is going to do. I wouldn't accept that and have learned ways to make them work. They are sure a lot of fun once you figure out how to make them sing! 
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: Marlin 45 Colt "Cowboy" octogon barrel lever action...accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 03:58:04 PM »
Thanks for the feed back. I have been using H110, but also use 2400 and 4227.

I can appreciate the resizing of the neck only, but being I want a load that will shoot in BOTH of my Ruger Blackhawks and also in the Marlin 45...I don't want to have larger cases. I hope you can understand that.
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