Author Topic: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.  (Read 1726 times)

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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2012, 09:40:02 AM »
I mostly stay out of these kind of discussions and not really knowing all the facts I will only put up a few things to consider.
 
1-15' I would think should be within taser range.
   May not use one because of the child?
 
2-The man was reaching into the house.
   The cop has no way of knowing what he is reaching for or what he intends to do.
 
3-If the cop has been on swat before then I would think he would have body armor of some sort on, at least a vest.
 
4-The man had a child in one arm which only leaves one hand free to attempt to make a shot with, (if that was his intention) not many
    could make a good shot in that situation. Ties in to the vest part above.
 
5-Couldn't the cop have made a non lethal shot to say the leg, that will stop most people long enough for others to bring the man under
   controll.
   His head shot proved he was able to place his shot with precision.
 
I am sure there were other determining factors that we can only guess at at this time.

Seems like maybe a different outcome could have been achieved?
I admit I am not a cop fan but they have a hard job at times and in this case it appears he had to take a decision and he did so.
Weather he was right or wrong, I have to agree with Cuts Crooked that it will be determined a good shoot.
 
 
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2012, 09:49:04 AM »

well I was gonna quit this argument, but since you misrepresented that second link, I have to speak up.
it was a very long article about unjustified shootings.  some were some weren't.  I think it boiled down to some cops allowing a fellow cop getting away with murder.  you need to read it all.
you are guilty of the same thing I am, analyzing something without having been there.
I'm on the old mans side, you're on the cops side.
A citizen review board weeds out rogue cops.

No, I'm guilty of having spent nearly 30 years in LE and not reading into something, things  that aren't there. Your second link provided links to justified shootings too. are there bad shootings...yes, was this one of them....by the information provided, no.

Again, the links you provided have nothing to do with this shooting.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2012, 09:54:45 AM »
.
 
5-Couldn't the cop have made a non lethal shot to say the leg, that will stop most people long enough for others to bring the man under
   controll.
   His head shot proved he was able to place his shot with precision.
 
I am sure there were other determining factors that we can only guess at at this time.
 
LONGTOM

Believe it or not........a head shot is easier than a limb shot. Try it some time at the range, with a suitable target, you'll be surprised!

Add to that something you can't get at the range session....A split second...it's either you dead, or him.......a split second to decide......a split second to decide..... maybe someone else dies....a split second.......is he reaching for a gun.........a split second....no one can teach you what to do in that........ split second..........
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »
I just read the report on ruby ridge where weavers wife and son were murdered and the people involved never admitted any wrong doing.
also the R.O.E.  plainly stated that they were NOT to shoot unless "a weapon was observed".
this kinda ties in with the thread about the FBI in which a citizen should be in fear of their lives in this current police state.(my words)
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2012, 10:18:15 AM »
I just read the report on ruby ridge where weavers wife and son were murdered and the people involved never admitted any wrong doing.
also the R.O.E.  plainly stated that they were NOT to shoot unless "a weapon was observed".
this kinda ties in with the thread about the FBI in which a citizen should be in fear of their lives in this current police state.(my words)

If you wanna start a "bad shoot/good shoot" thread be my guest, but be aware that there are MANY more good shoots by LE than bad....but some people will call anything a bad shoot if it serves their anarchistic purposes.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2012, 10:21:23 AM »
I just read the report on ruby ridge where weavers wife and son were murdered and the people involved never admitted any wrong doing.
also the R.O.E.  plainly stated that they were NOT to shoot unless "a weapon was observed".
this kinda ties in with the thread about the FBI in which a citizen should be in fear of their lives in this current police state.(my words)

If you wanna start a "bad shoot/good shoot" thread be my guest, but be aware that there are MANY more good shoots by LE than bad....but some people will call anything a bad shoot if it serves their anarchistic purposes.
don't need another thread, I enjoy arguing with you. ;D
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2012, 10:23:10 AM »

don't need another thread, I enjoy arguing with you. ;D

Now THAT'S just Sick! :o ;D
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2012, 02:13:25 PM »
.
 
5-Couldn't the cop have made a non lethal shot to say the leg, that will stop most people long enough for others to bring the man under
   controll.
   His head shot proved he was able to place his shot with precision.
 
I am sure there were other determining factors that we can only guess at at this time.
 
LONGTOM

Believe it or not........a head shot is easier than a limb shot. Try it some time at the range, with a suitable target, you'll be surprised!

Add to that something you can't get at the range session....A split second...it's either you dead, or him.......a split second to decide......a split second to decide..... maybe someone else dies....a split second.......is he reaching for a gun.........a split second....no one can teach you what to do in that........ split second..........

My point was two things.

1-More than likely the child was somewhat close to the mans head, at least that is about where most kids are held, few are held down by someones leg.
 
2-He showed he could hit the leg just as easy as he hit the head. Takes the same amout of time to shoot at a leg as it does a head. I would think with less danger to the child.
 
3-I have taken the limb shot at the range and to be honest, to me there really isn't any difference to me.
I can hit one just as easy as I can hit the other.
Of course the target at the range isn't moving but it does have a victum that is somewhat blocking the head shot.
I have made that shot lots of times but have missed it a few also.
Never have missed the leg and never have I hit the victum while taking a leg shot.
That is just me and the way I shoot.
I do agree with the split second decision and he made one.
It was his call to make.
 
 
LONGTOM
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"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
THOMAS JEFFERSON

That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2012, 02:34:13 PM »
Longtom,

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect the baby was under the mans arm. Think about it, if he's holding it near his head,and reaching for something inside the house, his head is going to go behind/or near the door frame. And a leg shot is not going to put the guy out of commission fast enuff if he's grabbin' fer a gun....it might, but then again, it might not.

Odd, I can hit the head with much more frequency than I can hit a leg. Observations of other officers seem to bear that out too. Your sight picture has to move further from center mass for a leg shot. Pelvic girdle is a better shot, but not if he's got a baby under his arm.

Still........just guessing, I wasn't there.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2012, 02:55:56 PM »
Don't they have high power binoculars or the like to make sure?

Did you READ it? The perp was reaching inside the house.............. ::)

And I'm truly sorry if it offends, but if you threaten to kill a cop and reach for a possible hidden weapon, you are going to get shot. That has been vetted by our courts many times over, you got a problem with it, tell to a judge......but be prepared to be laughed at.
"There were at least three officers in position to engage the suspect. At least one of the officers thought he saw something in the suspect's hands," said Sgt. Mark Clark.
I was referring to the above statement when referring to binoculars. You need to take a deep breath and relax a little. double  ::)
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »

"There were at least three officers in position to engage the suspect. At least one of the officers thought he saw something in the suspect's hands," said Sgt. Mark Clark.
I was referring to the above statement when referring to binoculars. You need to take a deep breath and relax a little. double  ::)

Yeah, sure......relax, get out the binocs......sounds like the perfect thing to be fumbling with in a crisis situation when yer right in the middle of it.

"Hey Joe!!! I know things are a little bit tense here, the guy is screaming he's going to kill everyone and he's in a doorway and we can't tell what he might have access too, but would you please holster your weapon and go get the binocs outta the back seat.....just take a few secs to check his hands from a distance ok? No, don't worry about us, and you can pretty much ignore the baby too...... just look ok? No, no, really, we'll all be ok! Just look and report what you see..Oh yeah, bring us the headsets first so you can quietly report in over the radio without him hearing. Look around and see if you can find a taser too while yer at it....and maybe some donuts" 8) :D ::)

Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Hooker

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2012, 03:33:09 PM »
Come on guys babies are dangerous weapons. Don't believe me, ask Randy Weavers wife.
Oh wait you can't, they killed her for threatening them with a deadly baby.


Pat
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2012, 03:37:32 PM »
Cuts Crooked, forgive me, but 30 years as a LEO makes your testimony automatically biased in favor of a fellow LEO, just as mine is biased in favor of military in all things.


Someone who is not a veteran LE may look at this situation and wonder at what point in the incident did he demonstrate "means". Until means are established, all you have is verbalizing a threat, and I've been through enough UCMJ proceedings on that to know the evidentiary requirements necessary to elevate it from a hothead to a menace. He could just as easily have been reaching for a phone to call his lawyer, or the baby's bottle, as a weapon.


And as you say, anyone with 6 confirmed career line of duty shootings in this day and age would be viewed with suspicion until cleared by a review board. That he was put back into rotation indicates he met departmental requirements, sure. But folks who have pulled the trigger are more comfortable doing it again; same issue in my line of work. Doesn't make them evil, just calls into question their ability to make an objective determination to abstain from escalation.


And as you know, just because it gets cleared in court does not make it a righteous shoot ... I've counseled way too many shooters to buy that.
held fast

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2012, 04:42:15 PM »
Cuts Crooked, forgive me, but 30 years as a LEO makes your testimony automatically biased in favor of a fellow LEO, just as mine is biased in favor of military in all things.

TN, thanx for your comments, which I give more credence too than many! And thanx for your service!

Now I must abandon this for a while. Y'all will have good laugh over why! I am returning to the academy for a week......for a course called "Street Survival and the Experienced Officer". This should be interesting.....to see what they can teach an old dog. :)

Unless I can get web access there..........I'll stop back next week.
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"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2012, 04:44:46 PM »
Quote
Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.




Hmmm... was Lon Horiuchi involved?
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Offline mauser98us

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2012, 04:59:38 PM »
We don't mess around here in Phoenix. It's just too hot most of the time.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2012, 02:15:26 AM »
Being a cop requires a lot more than I have--to be perfect in all decisions such as this.
As we see--there is no chance for OOOPPPS, takeing it back or time out.
Given the circumstances, at best, the very best, this was a very questionable decision by the officer.
You can argue the moment, but, the moment had not occurred-- it was waiting its turn. The officer in this case guessed--he guessed wrong. He was in a position that only very visible proof of a weapon was required to even think about taking the shot--then there is still "IF".
I can appreciate fear. I don't think ws a case of fear as much as it was of opportunity presenting itself.
My opinion.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2012, 02:25:11 AM »
TN and william, good posts gents.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »
Interesting, it was the one cop out of three that shot the man. The same cop that shot several others. IMO that dude is trigger happy and likes his job way way to much to be loose with a badge and gun.
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Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2012, 02:09:41 PM »
From the article I gave a link too:

Quote
Officer Peters fired his scope-equipped police rifle as Mr Loxas leaned over and reached back into the house, authorities said. The baby was not hurt and police said Officer Peters was trying to save its life.

Now........I think the officer has had too many shootings in his career, but I think this is a good shoot anyway.......everyone made it home but the perp this time.

It's time for this officer to go to a desk job though.






Would you have taken the shot with him holding that baby?One quick move as you pull the trigger and the baby takes the shot.After reading the stories concerning his other shootings, this guy (IMO) likes to shoot people.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2012, 03:16:05 PM »
After reading the stories concerning his other shootings, this guy (IMO) likes to shoot people.
He is in a profession where you can get away with that sort of thing.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Unarmed man killed by police while holding baby.
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2012, 04:01:53 PM »
Read article CC linked. And I'm thinking about how easy it is to hit something with a rifle from 15'
I googled it.  he was 15' away. 
Sorry, but reality dictates, if there's chance he'll get a weapon.........I'm going home at the end of my shift.
Imagine how many killings we would have in America is everyone used that chance as justification to shoot someone.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.